You hate dealing with Car Salesmen; Car Salesmen hate the process as much as you do

"Jonathon Klein" (jonathon-klein)
06/05/2014 at 10:30 • Filed to: Car Buying

With Edmunds very " !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! " survey coming out and with so much material on how everyone hates haggling, I figured it would be a good time to offer a perspective from the other side of the coin. The salesman. Now I won't speak about all salesmen, just because I don't know everyone and I didn't know everyone's motivation I worked with. However, myself and a few of my fellow salesmen were very like-minded in their disgust at the same thing you are all disgusted with, haggling.

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It's been a few years since I sold cars, but I do remember it vividly. Why, because I hated it. I worked for three different dealerships. All sold different cars, in different price brackets, and with different people at the helm of the dealerships. But all three had the same idea of how to sell cars, be pushy. When we followed this idea, we ended up losing many customers.

When you first start at a dealership and are put into training, the first thing the training salesman tells you to do is when a customer comes up on the lot walk right up to them as quickly as possible and engage them. This is to ensure they don't just come and look, they are instead obligated to talk with you. Like a helpless fly in a web. It's a way for dealers to get a hold of you and keep you at the dealership longer than you may want to. You may have also encountered the dealer holding the keys to your trade in to try and convince you to stay and buy a car. This is probably not news to you all; everyone has a dealership horror story.

What is news is the salesman you are dealing with probably doesn't have a choice in engaging you that quickly. It's beaten into our heads and they make you think you won't get a sale unless you are relentless. And being that most dealerships only pay commission, or at least my three did, that means unless you sell, you aren't eating that week.

After you break the customer down and finally get them to the table to discuss the purchase, you enter the haggling zone. Here's how it breaks down. First, you find the car you want, hopefully, I saw many people influenced into buying the wrong type of car. At one point in my work for one of these dealerships a young guy came in to get a new car. Nothing outlandish or much to write home about, then he began the financing. He was underwater on three separate cars, just rolling over the debt he has incurred onto a new car. His credit was so bad from all the other previous car sales that neither of his parents could cosign. At this point, I would have thrown his ass to the curb, but my manager encouraged the other salesman to see if anyone could cosign for him. Even when they brought up their hesitation noting that he shouldn't even do this, they still pushed. This guy's bright idea, his 87yr old blind and infirm grandmother, who at present resided in a nursing home. The kid walked out with a brand new car and most likely his grandmother's credit going to hell in a hand basket.

Now I bring up this story for two reasons. First, to illustrate dealerships can be assholes, and second and more importantly, some of us salesmen don't like the game either. Throughout my tenure with these dealerships, I saw many versions of this same story and most just made myself and a few others sick to our stomachs. But these pathetic stories aren't the only things that can turn a salesman's stomach.

The entire process of haggling is as many of you know rigged. Rather than giving you the best price available, the two parties will go back and forth trying to come up with a number that suits mostly the dealer. After a salesman leaves the table with the customer's offer they go to the sales manager and present the offer. You as the customer, see them talking about what you think is the price, when really they are just stalling and coming down maybe a few hundred to at most a grand. Every time I did this, all I could think of was why can't we just have a set price and be done with this?

Customer's would come in and pay drastically different prices for the exact same car. It was highway robbery. Inevitably most customers would get upset with the lack of actual savings and would storm out. I think most salesmen would gladly give up this game too because all this game of haggling does is drive down your monthly sales.

Recently I purchased my !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and had one of the best experiences you can have on a car lot. The salesman was unbelievably nice and let me sell myself on the car rather than push me one way or the other. After all the paperwork was done and I had my keys, I asked him why he sold cars this way, and what he told me is something all dealers and salesmen should take to heart. He said that he had been doing this for too damn long to not understand the one thing that turns off a potential buyer, being a pushy jerk. He said he got far more sales letting the customer talk themselves into buying the car. He just handled the paperwork really.

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This experience is very similar to what you would find at a Tesla dealer and the reason why so many dealerships are pushing back against Tesla's model of sales. At Tesla the price you see is the price you pay. The salesmen at typical car dealerships are scared that people might want to get rid of them all together if they follow in Tesla's haggle-free footsteps. And according to the results of the Edmunds survey, their fears may be true. But we can live in a world where both are happy, that is if dealerships can learn that being a pushy asshole to the customer is not the way to do business.

You can find me here on !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

DISCUSSION (100)

gordonbombay > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:44

As someone who used to be the F&I manager at a dealership, I strongly agree with this. The place I worked at always used payment and a four-square though to keep the customer off the total price. The combination of the sales process and working from 7:30 AM to 11:00 PM made me all but hate my life.

Tom McParland > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:45

This! As I have mentioned before, there are plenty of salespeople who really do want to do the right thing. It is nice to hear the perspectives from those on the other side. The reality is...it is a crappy system for both parties. Like most industries, it is the folks sitting behind the desk and not out in the trenches that reap the benefits of a twisted system.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:46

So Saturn had it right all along with its no-haggle pricing? Wonder why the other GM divisions didn't adopt it..

Diesel > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:47

I worked at a dealership and would recommend to everyone to buy their car the last day of the month. Since the dealership I was at would have a commission and it would increase with the more cars you sold. So, at the end of the month, you were looking to increase your number by a few.

TheCraigy > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:47

But there are so many sleazeball salesman that do this day in and day out. They sure don't make it look like they hate it.

tomcat0403 > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:47

"The salesman was unbelievably nice and let me sell myself on the car rather than push me one way or the other."

I had this experience when I bought my Mazda 6 GT 3 months ago. I dealt with the same salesman over 9 months (wife and I had a baby and were closing on a house). Every time he was outstanding to deal with and let me sell myself and answering the questions I asked clearly.

However, in all that time I went to many dealerships, I HATE not being approached, I am a salesman by profession and I expect to get help promptly. Most I dealt with understood that I was gathering info and was not ready to buy for a while, but 2 really stood out in my mind. One kept on trying to close on nothing (Chevy dealer) and another wanted nothing to do with me (Caddy dealer).

ragingpandabear > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:47

I worked for a dealership in college and my experience was mostly the same. I was lucky that I managed inventory/stock, so I didn't have to do the smarmy work myself, but I dealt with enough of the sales and management people (mostly being yelled at for something needed for a car they weren't selling) and watched enough buyers come through that the process you describe is all too familiar. It's really sad and part of the reason I'm not a fan of the dealership model, but it's also the reason I'm able to navigate/negotiate through the car buying process reasonably well. I feel bad for others who aren't aware of what they're getting into or bypass most of the pitfalls.

maximum_sarge > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:47

I actually dread the retarded upsell conversations in the finance department worse than the 'salesman' part. Just when you think you've got a 'deal'... BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE HAVE YOU CONSIDERED THIS PERMASCENT INTERIOR LINER AND UNDERBODY RUST PROTECTION DON'T YOU EVEN WANT FLOOR MATS YOU DON'T WANT TO VOID YOUR WARRANTY AND RISK FINANCIAL RUIN DO YOU?!?! ARE YOU SURE?!?!? IT'S MY RESPONSIBILITY TO WARN YOU OF YOUR IMPENDING DOOM IF YOU DON'T BUY THIS SHIT!!! LAST CHANCE OR I'M REALLY DISAPPOINTED IN YOU?!?!

Kinja'd!!!

Meatcoma > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:48

This... is the reason I will slowly drive through lots on SUPER HOT days until they scurry out of the air conditioning and then I will proceed to make them wade through rows trying to catch me just so I can wave with my windows up and exit out as far from the lobby as possible.

Old-Busted-Hotness > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:49

They're getting paid for it. On the receiving end, it doesn't matter that they're fucking you with their boss' dick.

Josh > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:49

I've never sold cars but I've worked in a variety of other commissioned sales. I was chastised for not being pushy enough and even fired. This was while I was setting sales records. I wish that was a joke - they said I was too passive and didn't pursue the customer hard enough (while producing $750k gross annual @ 40% margin on roughly $60k/yr salary, more than double the average salesperson with the company). Apparently jerks don't like to be proven wrong.

I, instead, started my own company and use the majority of the sales tactics employed by the guy who sold you the FR-S. I assist those who aren't sure what they should get, find a general direction for them and show them the benefits. The rest usually takes care of itself. We haven't been in business a full year and I just upgraded to a '15 STi because of newfound income, so I'd say that you've hit the nail on the head - you can absolutely sell and market yourself without needing to be pushy or deceptive. Success is not mutually exclusive with being cut-throat. I'd say that overt pushiness (not assertiveness) shows weakness in sales due to the fact that the salesperson knows that they have something to hide.

Humpty-D > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:50

Thank you for writing this, I too sold cars for quite a while and it was a miserable experience. I always put myself in the customer's shoes and I'd never want to be approached like that, I absolutely hate dealing with the typical car salesman douches. Carmax has a no-haggle approach and it's been working great for them for quite some time, and they only sell used cars (typically).

My father owned the dealership I worked at and I pleaded with him for years to change the format, but he only knew one way to sell cars after being in the business for 30+ years. I refused to follow along with it. I'd let people browse, just be there to answer questions, and I told them if they wanted to own the car that'd be great, but I wouldn't force them to do anything. When it got down to haggle time, I simply handed them off to my father and it allowed them to get to the golden number in a third of the time without the typical back and forth bullshit.

Worst salesman line of all time: "What is it going to take to put you in this car today?"

Shoot me in the face.

fxcol > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:50

Thank god Tesla is bucking the trend of dealership haggling. Hopefully other manufacturers follow suit. I should be able to buy a car without feeling like I'm haggling for a donkey at a street market in Timbuktu.

StevenG > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:51

Most salesmen are not fit to be pissed on if on fire.

The guy who sold me my last car, is a scholar and a gentleman. He let me ask questions, offered a fairish price, worked it down and was honest about the fact that my trade was worthless. I came into it knowing that, that was why I wanted the thing gone.

dmat > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:52

since its relative to the topic. I'll be looking to buy a new car around november. Any tips for a first time new car buyer when dealing with these people?

Textured Soy Protein > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:52

I spent a summer in college selling cars. The dealership had a horrible process that we absolutely had to follow. It included having the customer fill out a credit application before even talking prices with them, and then when talking prices, not telling them the trade value or price of the car, just a "your trade + $____" number.

Depending on the customer, I would often go off-script and just admit that this is the process I have to follow, but I'll hook them up as long as they help me get through the process. Some of them were just so adversarial about car buying in general that I couldn't get them on my side.

Room13 > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:52

That's the model at my dealership. Fuck the car, the customer will find what they like without you. Be knowledgeable so that you can answer questions. But be a decent person so that the customer might actually like you. We do turn every customer, which means no one leaves without talking with two sales people, but that's mostly just to see if the first sales person and the customer don't like each other. Which is really why most people leave a dealership. A shopper will walk away from a car they want because they don't like the guy showing it to them. We want everyone to buy, but we want everyone to be happy and come back over and over.

Kinjago > Diesel
06/05/2014 at 10:54

This is very true. I used to do Chip repair for dealerships and for all of the salesmen would be more interested in the bonus at the end of the month than the commission on the current sale. But they also tend to be more pushy at the end. Catch 22

kern8471 > ragingpandabear
06/05/2014 at 10:54

I worked at a dealership as well...some shaddy folk. There were still many good guys though. Did teach me a lot about how to handle those sorts of people and sales guys - it is the only dealership I've actually bought from though, as every other place I've gone seems shady. I at least know these shady folk ha. I still have a guy calling me once a week asking if I found a car, had to block his number.

As Du Volant > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:55

Great article. I sold cars for over 6 years, now I work in management (online operations) for the same dealer group.

As a salesperson my absolute favorite customers were the ones who researched online, knew what a fair price was for the car they wanted, recognized that our advertised sale price was a fair price, and knew what to expect for their trade in and their financing. All I'd need to do at that point was present the car to them, answer their questions, and fill out paperwork, and usually a good time was had by all. The sad thing is these customers are a minority despite all this information being freely available online.

The worst customers, by far, were the uninformed ones. The ones who'd demand my best price and then come back with an attitude when I gave the number to them (laugh in my face and then accuse me of shady tactics/lying and say I'd need to take thousands more off for them to even consider buying). The ones who assumed we had $10,000+ markup in every car because we're money-grubbing scumbags (these were the type that'd accuse us of making fake invoices when we attempted to prove our point by showing them the invoice). The ones who didn't understand how simple math worked and thought we could get them a $300 payment on a $30,000 car because that's just how much they wanted to pay. The common perception is that uninformed customers are the ones who get ripped off, but for every one who pays too much there's 3 more who have the salesperson chasing his tail for 3 hours, can't get the deal they want because their expectations are unreasonable, and then go tell everyone they know how horrible said dealership is.

People seem to think that the only way a dealership makes money is through grossing its customers. This couldn't be further from the truth. My store's sales department makes its money through a) selling lots of new cars at competitive prices and b) acquiring used cars at fair market wholesale values and then selling them at fair market retail values. No rip-offs necessary and we've got happy customers and happy employees.

I love having a transparent business model and providing an honest, easy, no-hassle experience, but the culture around this business has been such for so long that it's extremely difficult to pull it off- the customers just assume we're lying and fight back when we try to make it easy on them.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > Diesel
06/05/2014 at 10:57

logic would dictate that a motivated salesperson wouldn't car WHEN those cars were sold....

but people are lazy, and only see the light at the ed of the tunnel when it's about to give them sunburn.

Diesel > Kinjago
06/05/2014 at 10:57

Well, my other rule is to buy gently used or just off lease. I go in with a price(total cost, not a monthly rate) and if they can't meet that I move on. I hate how they try to manipulate people to say it will only be xx/per month but not telling them it will take 7 years to pay off.

StevenG > Diesel
06/05/2014 at 10:57

I have never worked at a dealership and would suggest buying a car right after the new models come out. You can get last years model for a pretty good price. Doing it at the end of the month still applies.

AbeVigodasSon > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:57

I'm a little confused about the survey process with dealerships. My girlfriend recently purchased a new car and was asked to take a survey about her car buying experience. She filled it out HONESTLY - not everything was a 10. There were some 9s, 8s, and maybe even a 7 (at the very lowest).

We got a call from the dealership a day or two later saying, "it was the worst score they've EVER received from a survey" - that corporate was FURIOUS and the salesman was in huge trouble and might actually face financial ramifications.

What is the point of a survey process if they want you to lie and give them all 10s just to make corporate happy?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:58

Couldn't agree more with the "Let the car sell itself" remark. The ford delaership was more than happy to toss me the keys and a dealer plate for a Fiesta ST. Apparently every 20-30 year old male who took a test drive buys one. Those and the focus STs. So they just kick back, wait 20-30 minutes, and "Prepare the paperwork" until you come back. Granted, I wanted to order mine and didn't want the neon green one they had on the lot, but still......I drove it, I loved it, I bought it. Salesman didn't have to say a thing.

I wasn't even pressured to buy the extended warranty. And they provided me the order form with prices for a new wheel/tire when I asked. I bought the wheel/tire/glass protection plan because it was cheaper than a new wheel and tire, but if they weren't going to play ball with me on the prices, I don't know if I would've.

StevenG > vdub_nut: scooter snob
06/05/2014 at 10:58

Have you met the average human? Logic does not factor into it.

Maxis47 > Meatcoma
06/05/2014 at 10:58

I recently drove my new MS3 through a couple of local lots with my wife because she wanted to see what other manufacturers offer of similar size to the CX-5. The Chevrolet dealer was the funniest, no less than three different salesmen were wading through the rows of cars trying to get to me, waving their arms and trying desperately to make eye contact through my sunglasses and window tint. I'd feel bad, but I'm pretty sure they just wanted my new Mazda to sell as used and throw me into a V6 Camaro or Sonic RS...I'll pass

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:58

See, I believe in being up front with what you want.

I went over to the local GMC dealer, because I haven't seen any of the new GM trucks up close, and I am considering replacing my old Ford (Having the radio die in it didn't help the situation).

The up went something like this:

"Hi, I'm Bob. Welcome to XYZ Buick GMC."
"Hi, I'm Sensei. I want to look at the new 3/4 ton GMCs, since I haven't seen them before. I need to know what's available on the market before I make a decision on replacing my truck, and that's not going to be until the end of the year."
"OK. I have some WT models, SLE models, and SLT models. Is there any feature that you think would influence your decision?"
"I would be looking at a Duramax, and possibly the backup camera, since that makes hooking up a trailer so much easier."
"Let's look at the SLE and SLT models then. You can't get the backup camera on the WT."

And off we went. Afterwards, I had a much better idea of how my needs fit into the GM equipment lines.

Although their sales manager did pull out the following question, letting you know there are people selling cars who just don't change:

"What would it take to get you into that truck today?" (The truck in question was a $60K+ SLT with leather and just about every option).

"You'd have to write me a check for the price and then I'd give it back to you and walk out with the truck." (I tend to be brutally honest at times :) )

Diesel > StevenG
06/05/2014 at 10:58

That would also work. But, I never go brand new. Always gently used or leased.

KillerBee > maximum_sarge
06/05/2014 at 10:59

Last time I bought a car I actually made a point of telling the finance guy what a great experience he gave me. He wasn't pushy, was very nice and friendly. Just showed me the options (which he was obligated to do) and if I said no thanks, he moved on. Always with a smile. We had a great conversation about the car I was buying and a vacation destination we had both been to.

Every other finance guy I ever sat down with was a grumpy asshole who obviously hated his job and made me feel like not only was I an idiot for passing on the paint protection and extended warranty, but that he was personally offended by my refusals. Far and away the worst part of the buying experience. This other guy was top notch.

Big Block I-4 > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 10:59

Isn't your FR-S purchase a bit easier due tot he Scion no haggle pricing scheme? Just wondering because I know they advertise that and was wondering what that was like in real life.

AMGWTFBBQ > TheCraigy
06/05/2014 at 11:00

There are a few bad apples at every dealership. Some more than others. Think about your own office. Are there a few people you work with who you wouldn't want in your house?

To be fair though, as far as that process goes, getting an app first... I'm glad that's never been imposed on me. What a good salesperson is going to do is ask a few questions and find out what your objective is. Let's say you know you've got terrible credit, you're tanked in your trade, and you just want to get out of it.

A good salesperson is not going to waste your (or his/her) time and take you straight inside and find a solution to your problem. A bad salesperson is going to spend an hour on the lot test driving and looking at cars and let you get your heart set on something you probably can't accomplish your goal with. Then you can't/won't buy, and nobody is happy.

If you have great credit and he/she determines you have the ability to buy, a good salesperson will spend the time on the lot first. Having a rigid system where everyone fills out an app first is probably not the best approach. However, you didn't tell us what brand you were selling. If you were selling Suzukis or KIAs, then I can see how that approach may be more appropriate most of the time.

StevenG > maximum_sarge
06/05/2014 at 11:00

Run, don't walk from those kinds of situations.

My last car purchase they did not even offer such things. They even told me to get the fitted car mats and remote starter some place else. They said they had them, but their prices were terrible.

KillerBee > tomcat0403
06/05/2014 at 11:01

I had the exact same experience buying a Mazda vs. a GM. Must be the corporate sales culture at work.

As Du Volant > AbeVigodasSon
06/05/2014 at 11:01

This is the manufacturer's problem, not the dealerships. They've mad the standards so unreasonably high that the surveys are completely worthless. Anything less than perfect is considered FAILURE, and yes, it does cost the company and the salesperson money.

Why do I say the surveys are worthless? Survey results have such a high bar and are tied to so much incentive that nowadays survey scores can't identify which dealerships are actually the best- they just identify which ones are the best at coaching their customers to give them perfect scores.

In the real world I'd rather buy from a company that had a 9.3/10 survey average than one with a 10/10. 10/10 is too perfect and looks manipulated.

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:02

I only hated selling cars, because the clientele I had to sell to had some of the worst accumulated credit scores I have ever seen. They would come in to look at 30-40k cars and couldn't finance a 10k Nissan Altima from the Enterprise rental fleet. They would play the part of entitled "I gets money" until you run that credit and they have 3 previous repos, 25 grand owed in medical bills, and a bankruptcy filing. The times I had good customers with good money and good credit I can count on little more than my fingers (I only sold for 9-10 months). When I worked with them I basically showed them the car they wanted to see, the usually came in with a specific car to look at, I showed them the paperwork and told them my price. They would counter offer and most times the counter offer was sufficient and I sold the car. My main objective was volume as I was primarily a wholeseller. I sold more cars to dealerships for the unfinancables to buy after they couldn't get done up on something through Nissan motor finance (who will generally finance anyone with $1000 and a 500 credit score @ upwards of 15.9% interest).

AbeVigodasSon > dmat
06/05/2014 at 11:02

Determine the car you'd like to purchase and fair pricing for that vehicle before even stepping foot on a dealership lot.

Only use the dealership as an opportunity to test-drive and touch the actual vehicle(s) in which you're interested.

Ben > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:02

The dealership I currently work for is a One price store. We dont do the old game. We used to do the game that the article talks about but it makes both sales and customer experience even better. We are paid on volume vs commission. My goal now is to find the customers wants and needs and then show them the cars that meet the requirements. I love selling cars this way!

spanfucker retire bitch > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
06/05/2014 at 11:02

The dealership I went to let me take home the car for the entire weekend and bring it back on Monday, after I got out of work. That's basically almost 3 full days getting used to the car and acclimating to how it drives.

It certainly worked. There are only two Mazda dealers in the area, and guess which one I bought it from?

Aldairion > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:02

Appreciate this write-up!

I used to be a salesman for a Honda/Toyota dealership (yup, both makes out of the same showroom) and I wanted so badly to do well. I love cars, and I enjoyed engaging with people, finding out their needs, and setting them up with something they'd enjoy. It's a large purchase, and I wanted to get people to care about cars and car buying just a little more and come away from it positively.

However, I guess that meant I never fully adopted the "BUY HERE NOW" mentality, which did not fly with my manager. I didn't sell that many cars, but I can confidently say that I had a higher percentage of satisfied customers. I imagine the nature of sales for high-end brands, like Bentley or Maserati etc. would be different. Could anyone shed some light? Since leaving there, I've been visiting other dealerships just to see what the experience is like and I can't help but think it's dictated by the fact that I worked at a Honda/Toyota dealership. Those are mainstream cars that are meant to just sell, sell, sell. On the other hand, I recently went to a Buick dealership to check out the Regal GS. There were none in stock, but the salesman took my information and got back in touch with me three months later because they got one in stock. It was automatic, not manual, but he encouraged me to just feel out the car and figure out if I was really into it, transmission notwithstanding. That's the sort of approach I always tried to take, but I'd always get chewed out for "letting a deal walk"...and it especially irked me when my customers ended up coming back days, weeks or even months later to buy anyway.

ragingpandabear > kern8471
06/05/2014 at 11:03

Yeah, the worst is watching not shitty people have to bend to the direction of their managers on the best way to rip off a customer. Unfortunately it was sink or swim and ultimately even good guys gotta eat, and if they want a paycheck, they have to take as much as they can from customers.

Turbolence1988 Loves Magic Turn Circles > Josh
06/05/2014 at 11:03

Thank you. Knowing there's at least a few dealers out there selling cars the RIGHT way in the 21st century gives me a shred of hope for my upcoming purchase.

Now to hope you're in fact in car sales and within 100 miles of Boston. :-P

ILLec > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:03

Thankfully we have the internet. I do my haggling through email and come in when I'm ready to sign the papers.

AMGWTFBBQ > Josh
06/05/2014 at 11:04

I've found that the more brash, loud, and pushy salespeople generally have the least hair/most wrinkles. If you're confident in the quality of your product/service and make your clients FEEL better than the last guy, you don't really have to push anything.

spanfucker retire bitch > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom
06/05/2014 at 11:04

Scion does the same thing.

As Du Volant > tomcat0403
06/05/2014 at 11:05

I went to many dealerships, I HATE not being approached

This is the truth. For every customer that gets annoyed about being approached by a salesperson, there's another that'll bitch about wandering around for ten minutes with nobody coming up to help them. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. My best result when selling was to ask the customer how I could help them and then LEAVE THEM ALONE if they said they didn't want assistance- but I'd stay where they could see me if they needed to flag me down.

AMGWTFBBQ > StevenG
06/05/2014 at 11:05

I remember you!

Just kidding. But I hope people have the same feels when they drive off my lot.

550F2 > maximum_sarge
06/05/2014 at 11:06

I just bought a new car again, most of these dealers and salespersons are so bad that I don't really want to buy a car there anymore.

1. They don't know anything about the producct they are selling.

2. They won't stop talking, even if you didn't ask them anything.

3. They don't listen to what you want.

4. They think they can rip you off because you're just a customer and they are a car god.

I ended up saving €5000 by importing a car myself, the dealer had a problem giving me any discount at all claiming they didn't make any money at all on that particular model. This was a brandnew car from their lot, so I doubt that was true.

rs510 > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:06

I'm not sure how it goes for people who just go into dealerships and say, "I'm looking for a car to do this and that". I always go to see a car I found via the web or via a friend. As a result, it's straight to the car to dig in it. It's always good fun to gauge their knowledge of the car model and if they are genuine, or at least I think it is.

about 4 years back, parents wanted to get another run about for my mum. Didn't want to spend more than £2000. We saw an e36 318ti, which seemed in good condition. While they spoke to the guy, I was having my look over it to which I heard the guy say it was quick because it had a turbo, and that was what the T stood for. I challenged this by saying, "so where it is?" That threw him off his entire game as he froze for a second before trying to find it sheepishly. I gave him a min before saying, "it doesn't have one, does it." to which he admitted no. Got the price down from £1800 to £1300 as a result.

dogisbadob > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:06

This is why we need to get rid of dealerships. Good luck Tesla!

StevenG > As Du Volant
06/05/2014 at 11:07

The invoices are fake in a sense, I have never seen one that included holdback.

Kinjago > Diesel
06/05/2014 at 11:07

Never experienced it. Anytime I bought new cars I was told X Amount X Years. Maybe cause of friends in the industry.

sampsonhead > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:07

Prefer to do all this over the phone and email. My current car was purchased over the phone, site unscene. I offered 1,100 less than the asking price, had the out the door price faxed to my work and within a hour or so the car was purchased and the dealer hired a service to drive the car to my home a few hours away.

AbeVigodasSon > As Du Volant
06/05/2014 at 11:07

I agree. It makes the entire survey process an exercise in futility.

I recently had my car in for service and there were a couple things that were pretty inconvenient and unsatisfactory. I got my service receipt and a note was stapled to it saying: Please DO NOT take our online survey unless you're comfortable giving all "10s." Contact so-and-so if there are any areas that were unsatisfactory.

None of the issues were large enough to warrant an official complaint from my end, so I'd rather just not take the survey....which, of course, makes the survey - again - pointless.

As Du Volant > Diesel
06/05/2014 at 11:08

The sad thing is, one of the reasons that works so well is because that's what the majority of car buyers look at.

3/4 of our customers walk in the door saying "I want to pay $xxx per month" instead of "I need to spend a total of $xx,xxx with tax and fees included."

AMGWTFBBQ > dmat
06/05/2014 at 11:08

Don't refer to us as "these people". Be positive. Don't go in expecting a negative experience. Do your homework. If you're buying new, absolutely go to truecar.com. BE SURE. BE F-ING SURE that you're comparing apples to apples there though. Nothing is worse than someone set on the number they saw on there wanting a car with an MSRP $2000 higher.

Once you get in the business office (finance office), buy GAP INSURANCE if you're financing. Don't hesitate to decline anything else. But be open to it. Just because it's extra doesn't mean there's no value there.

Forrest > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
06/05/2014 at 11:09

nice!! Congrats on your ST. When it was time to replace my Miata, I seriously considered a Fiesta ST. The roads around here are so rough though, and the ST is too firm for really rough roads. Ended up buying a new Fiesta SE manual hatchback for $12.3k on the last day of the month. Slapped some summer tires on it, and I'm signed up to hoon it (slowly) at track day next week.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Forrest
06/05/2014 at 11:11

Kinja'd!!!

efme > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:12

i had a good experience at the dealership 3 weeks ago. finance guy had to try to sell the extra shit but i told him i knew about them and just to decline them all. he was upfront and just told me what he could knock them down. was he bullshitting me? probably but i got similar stories across the board at the dealership so any more discounts would be an act of god.

This was at a BMW dealership btw....

One was telling me they were converting sales models from margins to volume. sell at a certain price point and just call it a day. they were originally asking for $46k for the x5 but reduced it to 43.5k by the time i saw it/was looking on autotrader. over email they knocked it down to 42.5. by the end of it i bought it for $42k. I didn't feel like their stories were lies when they told me a previous guy tried to buy it for $41k and they declined. Probably holds some truth since I had to put a deposit to get it off the lot when someone was on the waty o purchase it.

Point of my story is it seems a lot of younger people see this sales model as a lot more viable. They're upfront, just tell you how it is and take it or leave it.

StevenG > rs510
06/05/2014 at 11:12

That is a fun game to play with them.

My wife was looking at a used civic, the salesmen says unlike your Insight the back seats fold and there is no battery behind them. I walked over to my car, folded down both back seats opened the hatch and asked him to point it out to me. It is of course not in that location. He was a real winner, I literally could not believe he worked at the same dealership where I bought my car.

czechmonsterdeux > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:12

I used used to sell Dodge, ugh, back in the day. This experience makes buying a car for myself or anyone in our family much easier. There are few things to remember.

1.Know your budget. (Don't fall for the what kinda of a payment are you looking for!)

2.Ask to see the invoice! Everyone will sell at invoice however unless you see it you don't know if they are lying to you.

3.Ask for special (unpublished) incentives. Militiary/Student/ and other discounts.... and every car dealership has so called "dealer" cash that the manufacturer gives for selling cars.

4.The longer the car sits in a lot the better deal you will get, they have to pay GM or whomever for that and lose money if a vehicle sits for too long.

5.Know what your car is worth if you are trading in, don't back off.

6. Don't be afraid to get up and walk away.

And most importantly ask them to show you on a piece of paper what they are selling the vehicle for, what your trade in is worth and extra incentives. DO NOT fall for the scribble they put in front of you with confusing numbers. Dealers play games with money!

AlexOsadzinski > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:14

I've had a couple of "standard" buying experiences: endless waiting for the salesman/manager conversation, no satisfactory end result, and I've walked away.

But, for the most part, I've had good buying experiences at the top and the bottom of the car price spectrum. It may be because I'm a middle-aged white guy who appears to know about cars, but I can't be sure.

At the high end, I've bought cars in 15 minutes from deciding to buy to agreeing the price, because market prices are generally well known and haggling is a waste of time on both sides, e.g. a new Ferrari always sells at list. I had a Porsche salesman tell me "any 911 on the lot for $x,000 off list", and the end price was at market or slightly below.

But, I've also had great experiences at the lower end of the market, e.g. at my local Chevy dealer (Hendrick). The first time, the dealer listed his prices on the web site, and they were below invoice. The salesman let me drive 5 different cars (Corvettes in this case), taking all the time I wanted, because I was new to Corvettes and wanted to understand how they felt and drove. Then the price was what was listed on the web site, below invoice and — fair's fair — I didn't see a reason to haggle further. There were no manufacturer rebates, so the dealer really was selling below invoice (but, of course, above his true cost). The second time (last weekend!), we agreed a tradein and new car price immediately, because the first offer was fair, reasonable and at market.

I referred a friend to the dealership. He flew to NC from CA to finalize the deal and pick up the car. The price (well below invoice) was agreed in advance. When he mentioned that he already owned a Z06, they gave him an additional $3000 off because they had a dealer program in place for that. Without being asked. Talk about customer delight.

The finance department guys I've dealt with have always responded to me saying "I know that you have to try to sell me a warranty/LoJack/paint sealant/leather treatment, but let's save you and me some time....I don't need or want them, but thanks". Works every time. In one case, the guy GAVE me a warranty to meet his quota, and I have no problem with that.

I think that it really helps to (a) do your research on what your tradein is really worth, and what the market new car price is. You may be able to get better, especially at the end of the month, but don't expect to beat market by a whole lot. (b) Treat the salesperson with some respect, as someone you're transacting a business deal with, and not as someone you look down on. The Golden Rule works wonders, not only for the interaction itself, but also for the deal. If you meet a scumbag salesman, just leave politely. (c) Be confident, but not arrogant or insulting.

ApolloX75 > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:14

Great write-up. When I was shopping for my Camaro I traveled around to several dealerships, some not even in my area. I only had one requirement in that it must be a 6 speed manual. My local salesman spent more time trying to convince me to buy "this very nice Cruze LTZ" constantly. I had to keep repeating I don't want a Cruze, I am here to buy a Camaro. Eventually he just gave up and said he couldn't get an LS with a manual.

I went to my dad's favorite dealer in Ottawa; sat down with a younger gentleman salesman, told him flat out what I wanted. He took about five minutes to find my car no bullshit or "how bout Dat Cruze out front". I didn't haggle at all and still managed to get it for 2K under what every other dealer was offering. I was driving my Camaro a week later.

Rewind to 2009, my first experience ever with trying to buy a new car. I walked into a Chrysler dealer with the intent of ordering a Challenger. I was 21, had a stable job at a good wage and excellent credit. Salesman looked at me and laughed, said I couldn't afford it cause I was too young. Didn't even try to run the numbers or talk for more than a second.

runningisforslackasses > StevenG
06/05/2014 at 11:15

I traded in my worthless rusted out focus (that caught fire twice and had a bad wheel bearing) when I got my fiat. It was a good laugh by all when the mechanic came to get it to get an appraisal. The sales manager was almost scared when he said he'd only can offer my 300$. I was like sweet, keep the garbage in the trunk!

Jonathon Klein > czechmonsterdeux
06/05/2014 at 11:15

Exactly, if you know what you're doing, they can't pull this shit on you.

StevenG > Diesel
06/05/2014 at 11:15

I went new only because used car prices were so high. I bought a 2012 in 2013 for $1000 more than I might have been able to get the 2010 for. That is taking into account a little haggling.

bronxasshole > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:15

A big part of the problem comes down to the customers mindset. For instance, if you go to buy a pair of shoes and the price says $100, do you haggle with the at the cash register? Of course not. But if a car it's priced at say $28,000, people immediately start asking how much less they can pay. Tesla has done a great job with telling people there's nothing to negotiate and not giving them a choice, other manufacturers aren't taking that approach yet and the general public would grow weary if they were told their Prius had a set price and it wasn't negotiable.

If car dealers are using over the top tactics such as holding your trade car keys hostage to force you into a deal then my advice is simple, strip buying in cars in places that use tactics that are over 30 years old. I've been in the business for a long time and I've never seen this stuff used by a dealership that operates professionally. Of course anytime we get a chance to hammer someone on a deal we'll do it, just like any customer that can hammer is will do the same. You have to get rid of the idea that a double standard between the people buying a car and the people selling it should exist. Every customer's goal is to try and eliminate a dealership's profit on the sale of a vehicle but these same consumers don't try this at a grocery store. Why not? Don't you think you'll spend a lot more on food over the course of your life than you will on your cars? Shouldn't you be negotiating the price of beef every time you go through the checkout line?

TheCraigy > AMGWTFBBQ
06/05/2014 at 11:16

Every time I've purchased/gone with a friend or family member to purchase a car, I've encountered a "bad apple."

There are no people in my office that I would think of in anywhere near the same light (I have a couple dozen people in my office).

None of us have bad credit, money problems, repossessed car, or other problems. Just looking for a fair price. Half the time the fair price is the price advertised on their website but then somehow we're not eligible.

Daniel MacCabe > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:16

I worked at a large Denver area Ford dealer back in the '90s. I was many things including an assistant manager and inventory guy. I agree with what the others are saying: don't buy new. The dealer added $2K to every car for a protection package which involved spraying some crap out of an old spray bottle and a very halfassed undercoating job. I wouldn't have given $100 for what they did. As an employee, I felt dirty every time I applied one of those markup stickers.

The carbuying experience does get better as you move upmarket. I bought a couple of Audis and actually had good experiences with the dealer. They were helpful, didn't bury me in add-ons, and didn't exert any pressure. (University Audi in Seattle)

StevenG > As Du Volant
06/05/2014 at 11:17

Which just shows what is wrong with our public schools.

We are already teaching kids algebra and percentages, would it be so hard to have math one year focus on this application of it?

binauralman > Jonathon Klein
06/05/2014 at 11:17

Why can't there be one price you ask? Because the Hyundai dealership across town is going to sell it for $100 less. Most customers have already contacted multiple dealerships and each one is going to undercut the other. I've worked in the car business for 11 years, you have no idea how far people will drive and how many hours people will waste to save $100. I laugh whenever I read an article like this every month or so. Talk to a dealership owner and ask where they make the majority of the money, it isn't (shouldn't be if ran properly) the sales department, the service and parts department are gold mines. None of these boilerplate posts ever ask someone at the top, they use burnt out ex-salesmen as their source. I look at about 150 credit scores a month and can tell you from experience, there are a lot more industries that consistently have higher concentrations of dirtbags.

Diesel > StevenG
06/05/2014 at 11:17

Nice price!

Jonathon Klein > Big Block I-4
06/05/2014 at 11:17

It was way easier because of this.

As Du Volant > StevenG
06/05/2014 at 11:17

Actually they do, they just don't make it very obvious.

Here's a copy of a Jeep invoice that I just generated in our system. About two thirds of the way down the page, in the middle, there's a line that says HB: 959. That's the holdback. The invoices that are shipped with the car are laid out slightly differently, but it's still there. They'd say HB 959 toward the bottom.

This information is readily available online, too- throw your vehicle configuration into Edmunds, make sure the MSRP matches, and they'll tell you the holdback.

Kinja'd!!!

Link to full size if you can't read it here: http://imgur.com/t3ni9h3

runningisforslackasses > AbeVigodasSon
06/05/2014 at 11:18

We get the same script from about anything less tahn a 10. It's mainly why I don't fill out the survery. I can't give you a 10 because it took you 90 minutes too long to finish the sale but there's nothing you can do to fix it so...

Jonathon Klein > Ben
06/05/2014 at 11:18

Which is how it should be

Forrest > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
06/05/2014 at 11:18

I think I need that on a T-shirt. :)

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Diesel
06/05/2014 at 11:19

End of the year is even better. When I bought my 2011 Hyundai Elantra on January 4th of 2011, I told the salesman "hey, I know it's the end of the year..." and he just straight up said "Yup, we've already exceeded our sales goals, everyone's getting a bonus, and the fiscal year closes tomorrow, have another $1500 off!"

Monsterajr > KillerBee
06/05/2014 at 11:20

I had the same experience when we bought our Saturn in 07'. The finance guy literally had a checklist of "options/services" for us to go through. No pressure and explained matter of factually what each did/did not cover.

Jonathon Klein > Aldairion
06/05/2014 at 11:20

I actually dissuaded a customer in buying one of our used cars and I got bitched at. But I wasn't going to sell them a crappy SRT4 that had a blown head gasket.

AlexOsadzinski > As Du Volant
06/05/2014 at 11:20

I couldn't agree more (see my earlier posting). Research, knowledge and a positive attitude make for a better interaction and the best deal. A MAJOR issue in the US is that people are never taught, in school, the value of money, in the literal sense. Many people don't understand the basics of finance, e.g. why a monthly payment is the wrong target number and why the cost of the money (APR) is the important one. When I was a freshly-minted immigrant, I remember trying to explain to my assistant why buying that handbag now on a credit card was way more expensive than saving for it for 6 months. I failed. I bet that a lot of your customer issues were around credit and finance....

AMGWTFBBQ > TheCraigy
06/05/2014 at 11:22

Gotcha. Were you looking at new or pre-owned cars? If you were looking at new cars I bet it's due to incentives or rebates.

Some incentives are dependent on you being a current owner, or owner of a competitor (a conquest).

Some are even so particular as to who you have insurance with.

I agree it is absolutely wrong to advertise the price with all of these things that most people don't qualify for but it comes down to marketing.

If we can agree that the majority of the public does not understand what I just explained, then when they see dealer X has the same car as dealer Y online for $3000 less, which dealer are they going to visit?

It's unfortunate, because like I said, a few bad apples, in this case the first dealer in the area to advertise this way, leads everyone else to do the same just to compete.