Turbo & P71 Questions.

"Camry-Into-Canyon" (Camry-Into-Canyon)
06/03/2014 at 14:58 • Filed to: None

So I'm probably moving this summer to a house with more space, and I really want to get a P71. I have a couple questions for people who either are/were owners and opponauts who know a thing or two about turbochargers. Firstly, what are some common issues with Vics? I know that proper maintenance is key with any car, and the cats are typically an issue (the Vic has 4!). I know to go for an 03 and up P71 to get all the goodies. Secondly, I am planning on boosting it with the turbo from a 96-03 Ford Powerstroke Super-duty. How reliable would it be running, say, 10 PSI of boost with an intercooler and custom-fabricated plumbing? If anyone can answer these questions, they get a special prize.

DISCUSSION (49)

CalzoneGolem > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 15:00

People driving at or below the speed limit in front of you.

505Turbeaux > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 15:01

Calling offroadkarter!

pfftballer > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 15:04

You probably want to lower the compression ratio. You'll also need more fuel, also probably an aftermarket ECU to control it. Look at the terminator mustangs for guidance on how to proceed with forced induction with this motor. From wiki:

"Numerous improvements were made to the power train and drive line to handle the increase from the previous model year. A cast iron block was used instead of aluminum, with stronger internals, including forged Zolner pistons and Manley H-beam connecting rods that were modified with a wrist pin oiling hole by the SVT engine builders. These upgrades were critical in order to support the 8 psi (0.55 bar) of boost delivered from the stock Eaton M112 roots supercharger."

Not mentioned in the wiki but Ford lowered the compression ratio to 1.5 points to 8.5:1.

FJ80WaitinForaLSV8 > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 15:11

These mod motors had spark plug issues so thats something to be on the lookout for. Car Craft did a decent P71 build that you can see online. My general impression with my Panther after doing all the research was that boosting these mod motors was pretty cost prohibitive. Sure it can be done but getting reliable power (say around 400 hp) is difficult without a fat wad of cash. Get a P71 with a blow engine and do and LS swap if you want big HP numbers, otherwise I've just been toying with the idea of a manual swap for my grand marquis.

Offroadkarter knows much more though, I defer to him as hes actually walked the walk.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 15:15

Rust in the front fenders on the wheel lips. The transmission would probably need to be beefed up to handle more power. The earlier of the 03 and up's have an aluminum driveshaft that is better than the newer aluminum driveshafts as they switched to a different type. Try to get one with the optional LSD. The stock exhaust is really quiet, so plan on getting better mufflers.

offroadkarter > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 15:16

Okay first off, why do you want a P71? Vomit comets (otherwise known as poverty panthers) suck. You can get a LX with leather and automatic climate for like 2-3 grand more.

Secondly, I've never heard of cats being an issue on these cars any more than any other car, and I own a 04 marauder. The second set of cats are for oxidation only, ford uses a 2 step catalyst system for whatever reason. Its not the same type of cat X4.

Third, buying a car fit for the junk yard, and throwing junkyard parts on it is not a good idea. People have done turbo vics in the past but its all custom fab work, nobody makes a turbo kit. The stock engine will be fine if you tune it good and keep it under 450rwhp.

Common issues - black paint sucks, white paint sucks, headlights die (recall out for that finally after 10 years), 03's have soft axle issues and timing chain issues.

Fire some questions away I'll be here all day.

offroadkarter > pfftballer
06/03/2014 at 15:16

the car has 9:1 compression and the factory ECU is just fine, you don't need to touch the motor at all unless you're going for a 500+rwhp crazy car.

offroadkarter > FJ80WaitinForaLSV8
06/03/2014 at 15:18

the plug ejecting issue was for the 4 thread heads which lasted up until 2003, 2004+ engines are 8 thread heads. Usually this happens when the plugs aren't torqued to spec.

One of my uncles had a 01 sport and around 70k miles it did shoot plug #3 out haha

offroadkarter > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
06/03/2014 at 15:20

rust is a bigger factor in the -02 cars but obviously if buying a car from buffalo or detroit I'm sure you'll find rot on a 03+ car. The 03+ cars have rolled fender lips to help with rust.

the 99-00 were the only cars with the alcoa metal matrix driveshaft which is the "better driveshaft" you are talking about. These cars had 3.55 gears and the AMMX shaft was built to help combat driveline vibrations when in long pursuits. Every P71 from 1998 to 2011 has an aluminum driveshaft that are all the same except for the AMMX shafts in the 99-00 cars. The marauder also has the regular aluminum shaft.

offroadkarter > 505Turbeaux
06/03/2014 at 15:20

go away I'm sleeping

Camry-Into-Canyon > pfftballer
06/03/2014 at 15:20

Thanks. An aftermarket ECU and bigger injectors were part of my initial plan. The driveline should be good but the forged pistons and h-beam rods may be a little rich for my budget. I've seen 3V mustangs being DD'ed with 12 PSI on them and just minor head mods, so maybe just a port-and-polish. How would I go about lowering the compression ratio? Special Prize below.

Kinja'd!!!

505Turbeaux > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 15:21

sleeping. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 15:23

Got ya, I pulled one from a junk yard that was sitting in a trunk of an '03, I'm going to use it in my pinto.

offroadkarter > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
06/03/2014 at 15:24

I have seen B body impala SS guys go after the AL driveshafts from panthers because apparently some of the rear aftermarket control arms relocate the axle in a way that the panther DS fits perfect and its a big upgrade for them. I've also seen them use panther rear swaybars haha

I bought an AMMX DS off a kid in north jersey parting out a 00 P71 for like 50 bucks, its been in my friends basement for over a year waiting to be rebuilt. I have to bug him again to finally finish it.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 15:25

I for one don't understand why one would turbo a Panther when there are IIRC off-the-shelf mild supers available. One might as well embrace the BOF muscle car old-style of fastness when souping up, not take on filthy furriner pretensions.

At some point, I'll be tempted to get a Grand Ma, for better sleeperishness and better price point for what you get. P71s are overdone.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 15:28

I got mine for like $70, but it was in great shape and still had POLICE dot matrixed on the side of it.

Camry-Into-Canyon > FJ80WaitinForaLSV8
06/03/2014 at 15:29

I just want a mild 350 horse motor. If I can run less boost, I will.

offroadkarter > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
06/03/2014 at 15:30

if it actually says metal matrix composite or MMC on it, and has pink/green/green or pink/green/pink stripes its an alcoa shaft. If it has orange or blue on it its a regular. I've seen regular shafts with "police" on them before, some even made their way onto marauders just because they used the same DS.

Camry-Into-Canyon > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 15:32

I know that the 99-00 cars got the cream-of-the-crop AMMX shaft, I was just comparing it to a civilian model. Also, I live in Canada, so rust is unescapable. My aunt's three-year-old Escape is rusting.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 15:33

I'll have to look when I get home.

offroadkarter > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
06/03/2014 at 15:33

nothing is really "off the shelf" for these cars. Years ago a company called Allen Engineering Development (AED) made a 2v eaton M90 kit for the thunderbird 4.6 and they later retrofitted it into a crown vic kit. Those are pretty hard to come by. ADTR.net sells the piping to throw a vortech on a crown vic. Thats about it really unless you buy a tork tech kit for a mustang and make it work.

Years ago when the car was new, a company called PTK made a turbo kit for the Marauder. They only sold like 13 kits and it wasn't routed the greatest (some of the pipes went UNDER the crossmember). If someone sold a good turbo kit for the marauder I would have done that over the supercharger.

Camry-Into-Canyon > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
06/03/2014 at 15:34

The LSD is something that i'm looking for. I'm planning on straight-piping it (not to be a dick, but I love the sound of an uncorked 4.6). I might just throw in a T-5 and a civilian driveshaft in there if I get bored.

offroadkarter > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 15:36

I have a friend in buffalo who works as a ford master tech at like the biggest ford dealership in the area. Some of the shit he's shown me is crazy, he said 5 years max before a car has rot holes and 10 years before its ready for the JY. Oiling is a must up there.

pfftballer > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 15:38

Well I've never worked with this motor in particular so I don't know what's available for them but the standard way to lower CR is with dished pistons. I've seen folks use thicker head gaskets as a cheaper option but I've also seen mixed results and some head gasket failures. If you get an older iron block motor the stock CR will probably be fine as long as you keep the boost down to reasonable values. You will want to run at least premium fuel and look into water injection and you will be fine. Definitely get a wideband O2 sensor and put in some time tuning it.

Also consider supercharging it instead as it will likely be cheaper.

Camry-Into-Canyon > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 15:39

The P71 gets the aluminum driveshaft, oil, trans and steering coolers, blackout trim, and... I physically cannot afford to spend 2-3 grand more upfront.

Cats are always a rust issue when you live in America's hat.

I'm only looking for 350hp for less than $1k in parts. anything more, and I'll be ecstatic.

I can MIG weld. Does that make a difference?

Waterloo ordered all of their's in blue. I might want one of those.

What do you mean "soft axle issues."

How severe (on a scale of 1-you're completely fucked) are the timing chain issues?

FJ80WaitinForaLSV8 > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 15:40

Remind me which route you took again? You're comfortable running 400 HP on stock internals?

Camry-Into-Canyon > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
06/03/2014 at 15:40

Because it's a cheap way of making power.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 15:40

I think it was the Mustang kits I was thinking of, but had only seen the AED kit in practice.

I tend to like supers more so than turbos at least partly because they less resemble something practical and more resemble something stereotypically seen on a big block Chevy with a scoop. The difference between a set of fans and an angry gnome on top of the engine beating in air with a hammer. It's an irrational preference, but one I stick with.

Camry-Into-Canyon > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 15:40

cool!

offroadkarter > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
06/03/2014 at 15:42

I love my eaton M112 but the PTK kit with a 76mm turbo made more power with less boost (475rwhp @ 9psi IIRC) over my eaton swap (436rwhp @ 10lbs 13deg timing). I was at 450rwhp with 16deg but my tuner dialed it back to be safe.

power is power

Camry-Into-Canyon > pfftballer
06/03/2014 at 15:43

I only use Shell V-Power (no ethanol) and I would definitely put in a wideband as well as an air-fuel gauge. Time is something I have a lot of, so I can spend some time tuning it.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 15:44

Agreed it's cheap at the outset compared to what I was thinking (perhaps erroneously) was a more straightforward installation with a super. That being said, the initial cheapness of the turbo itself might be offset by some of the complications.

Camry-Into-Canyon > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 15:45

oooh, yes. All the cars in the local junkyard are less than 20 years old (save for a lone 68 Mustang notchback, and a Saab 900 turbo convertible).

Camry-Into-Canyon > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
06/03/2014 at 15:47

I like supers as much as the next guy, but a turbo would work a little better because the mod motor doesn't have the laziness of a BBC or SBC. Uncorked, it sounds almost AMG-Esque.

offroadkarter > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 15:50

*cracks fingers*

You can find a LX easy for 2-3 grand but it won't be a 03+. A lot, and I mean a lot of P71's are ragged out so be really careful. Clean cars are often more in the 4 grand range. The oil cooler does nothing for you, they were put on the cars so they could idle for hours. Every panther has a trans cooler and NONE of them have steering coolers. LX Sports were monochrome and the black cars look the same in the rear as a black p71. That whole trunk panel and tail lights are interchangeable so I wouldn't choose a P71 over a P74 just to have one black strip.

The exhaust is full 403 stainless so I don't see you having any rotted out cat issues yet again I live in NJ not canada. Crusty manifolds with exhaust leaks? probably.

350hp is way easy with boost, 1 grand in parts you are going to be hunting down used parts and cobbling something together for sure. Cheap, Fast, Reliable - pick 2.

Mig welding certainly is a good skill to have if you're going to custom fab a turbo kit from scratch

DX blue (Dark blue pearl) if that is the color they used, is a pretty rare color in general. Either way black and white were the 2 colors that are effect the most. White literally falls off the car and black likes to have clear coat bubbles.

In 2003 the rear axle housing was extended due to the front and rear suspension changes. The axle shafts ride on the bearings on the outer edges and over time it will cut grooves into the axle shafts. If you let this go to long it'll spit shavings into the housing and you'll be doing an entire rear axle R&R. I actually began to eat an axle on my 04 marauder, when I had the diff apart for a L/S rebuild my friend noticed a few small chunks missing. 03's had a TSB on this but its not uncommon for 04's to have this to. Most fleet maintained CVPI's should have had the TSB done but it doesn't mean it can't come back. I personally think ford switched to the 31 spline axles in 05 because of this issue, I've never heard of a 31 spline having wear issues. I've never heard of the -02 cars having this issue either.

The timing chain guides were another 03 issue and most cars, again, had this fixed under the TSB. If the valve cover has 3 dots in a row and a X underneath, it means the car was serviced. If the car makes a clack clack clack like a diesel, it means the guides are shot.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 15:51

Understand, my long term deranged plan is to put a 3V V10 into a GrandMa, preferably with a super (as a suitable one exists, IIRC), and that would presumably be a little more lazy than the 4.6.

Camry-Into-Canyon > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 16:26

Huh. I thought the 2011 brochure said something about a steering cooler. Even the rattier auction cars that K-W puts up are in pretty decent nick. My friend's 2010 P71's cats are rusting already. Reliability is about a 4 on a 1-10 scale for me, and if I'm not making big power, it shouldn't be the world's biggest issue. It's DX. I'll remember to upgrade to a 31 spline if/when I need to. Good to know on the timing chain guides.

offroadkarter > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 16:37

I did some googling and I see some stuff listed for a power steering cooler on the 06-11 cars but not a ton. I'd imagine once again this is for cars that sit for hours on end idling, which I imagine is something you won't do. I know the oil coolers are prone to leak eventually and when they do people just rip them out.

05+ cars are all 31 spline by the way but they are also drive by wire which can make some things difficult. Personally I'd find a clean 2004, 2004 was the best year for panthers.

Camry-Into-Canyon > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 16:38

okay. good to know.

Camry-Into-Canyon > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 16:41

if the oil coolers leak, that means that I already have an oil return outlet in the oil pan for the turbo. Thanks for the tip that 04s were the best. i'll try to find a 99-00 AMMX shaft and diff if mine isn't punchy enough.

offroadkarter > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 16:45

the oil filter adapter has the ports for the cooler and the gasket for that is what usually leaks, I should have been a little more clear

JGrabowMSt > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
06/03/2014 at 16:52

http://jalopnik.com/5920238/for-15…

Is your next plan to run it off CNG?

offroadkarter > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 16:55

I just had a friend on facebook who has a 2011 CVPI (work car, ya know) tell me his does indeed have a steering cooler.

I'm not sure how far back this goes but I don't think it goes past 06.

Camry-Into-Canyon > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 18:59

oh. is it a gasket problem, or a fitting issue? or are people just over-tightening the filter?

offroadkarter > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 19:29

I think the gaskets just go bad over time, keep in mind most of these cars have like 150k+ on them by now

Camry-Into-Canyon > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 19:30

fair enough. If i replaced the gaskets every few months, would the adaptor work as oil and return lines for a turbo?

offroadkarter > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 19:31

you shouldn't have to replace it every few months they don't fail THAT often.

In theory it could but don't quote me on it since nobody has done what you are asking. Most people who drive P71's can barely afford to put flowmasters on them, let alone whip up a turbo kit.

Camry-Into-Canyon > offroadkarter
06/03/2014 at 19:53

Whelp, even old hoopties gotta go fast (especially when you're moving closer to TMP). If I trackday it in the future, I will post video

offroadkarter > Camry-Into-Canyon
06/03/2014 at 20:34

here is my build thread to give you some inspiration

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthr…