Survey: Dealers Lack Knowledge and are Reluctant to Sell EV Cars

"Tom McParland" (tommcparland)
04/24/2014 at 11:10 • Filed to: Electric Vehicles, Dealerships, Articles, Consumer Reports

100

Elon Musk has maintained for the longest time that dealerships will sway people away from EVs and into gas cars. He says, "...auto dealers have a fundamental conflict of interest between promoting gasoline cars, which constitute virtually all of their revenue, and electric cars, which constitute virtually none."

This is part of his reasoning why Telsa does not want to franchise through traditional dealerships. Personally, I always thought this logic was incomplete and I still believe that the Model S is such a desirable car that it would override, any resistance from sales-staff.

Perhaps Elon is right. Recently, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! CR used a number of secret shoppers who were actively in the market for an EV/Plug-in model. These shoppers asked very specific questions covering the following topics: "Tax breaks and other incentives, vehicle charge time, cost, and options, vehicle range, and battery life and warranty. They also asked the salespeople whether they recommended buying or leasing."

Here are some highlights:

- Toyota salespeople, especially, were more likely to discourage the sale of plug-in models and less likely to give accurate or specific answers to basic questions about electric cars or to say they didn't know.

- A sales manager at Manhattan Ford in New York City, the only Ford dealership actually owned by the automaker, at first denied there was a Focus EV, and then said it couldn't be leased. Both statements are incorrect.

- When asked about a Prius Plug-in, a salesperson at Star Toyota Scion of Bayside, N.Y., would not even show our shopper the car, despite having one in stock.

- Overall, our secret shoppers reported that only 13 dealers "discouraged sale of EV," with seven of them being in New York. Most of those stores had little to no inventory. However, at 35 of the 85 dealerships they visited, our shoppers said salespeople recommended buying a gas-powered car instead. Besides the standard Prius, a few of these cases seemed like reasonable advice. For example, one salesperson suggested a Nissan SUV instead of a Leaf when our shopper told him she had a commute that would stretch the Leaf's range.

Lack of product knowledge, on the part of sales staff, is nothing new. Most of us have rolled into a showroom only to know way more about a car than the person selling it. But if EVs are really the future, CR's findings have two very important implications both for car-buyers and manufacturers. If shoppers really want to purchase an EV, they need to advocate for their purchase much harder than gas powered car-buyer would. This also means that car-makers who are spending serious money to develop EVs for public sale need to be more involved in the dealer training so that these cars can get fair exposure.

Update: Just had a Twitter conversation with a Porsche dealer who proudly displays their Panamera-S Hybrid. I'm curious how the EV knowledge/promotion changes at luxury car dealers as this survey just focuses on more mainstream and "affordable" brands such as Toyota, Ford, and Nissan. In my experience luxury sales staff tend to have much more knowledge about their products and are more inclined to give the customer exactly what they want, EV or otherwise.

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! is a professional car buying consultant, lover of all things automotive and a bit wagon obsessed. You can find more ramblings and plenty of carporn !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

(Lead image via Shutterstock, clever snark via our own Patrick George)

DISCUSSION (100)

Alex B > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 11:15

The dealer where we bought our Leaf always has 4-5 on the lot. Our salesman actually owned a Leaf (he now has a sentra because he had to drive longer distances.) so he knew them inside and out. He's the main Leaf salesman, all Leaf test drives and sales happen through him. The service department though doesn't seem to want anything to do with the Leaf. It went in for a software update recently. They just don't seem to like Leafs.

Tom McParland > Alex B
04/24/2014 at 11:18

I think having a few dedicated sales staff for that car is a smart move

zeontestpilot > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 11:25

I have no idea why they would discourage the sale of EV cars. I think they are perfect for inner-city transportation. I may be a gearhead, but I like to look out for the environment at times as well. Why continue damaging it if there's an alternative?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 11:43

I can definitely see why at the Toyota dealership. Margins are probably better for them far and away for gas (particularly with incentives coming straight out of the amount that *they* can finance), and direct competition with the standard Prius - which costs them money for them to keep too many on the lots. Inflation of MSRP on the electric model only does so much to fill the coffers.

If Dullard E. Customer buys an electric that than doesn't suit their E-needs as well as a Prius (the original E-car for people making no use compromises, only comfort and taste ones), they'll be back to gripe, and let's face it, a lot of people attracted to the idea of an electric car don't grasp practicality issues and would be better off with a hybrid complete tin-box appliance anyway. Regardless whether the electric option is in itself a better car.

wiffleballtony > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:23

I would imagine the sales people get more compensation on other cars. The dealers probably want the sales people to move other high volume cars than the niche products. I was at a Chevy dealer looking at Camaros and they tried to steer me toward a Tahoe or Equinox. I think those were the vehicles they wanted to move. Coincidentally I purchased a Ford instead.

Doug Nash > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:42

NEWS FLASH: Most dealers don't know jack shit about anything they sell.

Tom McParland > Doug Nash
04/24/2014 at 12:43

THIS IS TRUE BUT SOME DEALERS ARE ACTIVELY TELLING PEOPLE NOT TO BUY A PRODUCT THEY SELL. WHY AM I YELLING ABOUT ELECTRIC CARS?

clutchshiftington > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:45

deekster_caddy > zeontestpilot
04/24/2014 at 12:47

There is no after-sale income like there is on gas cars. No oil changes, little maintenance beyond checking cooling systems, rotating tires and updating software. If there is no money to be made, why push that sale? Sell something you know will be back for maintenance (oil and filter changes at minimum) so you can stay in business.

deekster_caddy > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:47

Because it's so goddamn frustrating! Yell away! Please!

clutchshiftington > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:48

Overall, our secret shoppers reported that only 13 dealers "discouraged sale of EV," with seven of them being in New York. Most of those stores had little to no inventory.

To be fair, every car salesman on the planet tries to discourage a shopper from buying a car they don't have.

LJ909 > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:50

Maybe its not a discouraging thing and more of a this makes more sense suggestion. I feel that alot of people are buying EV's for the image first. Much like it was with the first and second gen Prius. Any good sales person would steer someone clear of something the customer doesnt actually need. Its just a process of elimination of sorts. I did it when I was a sales person.

Tom McParland > clutchshiftington
04/24/2014 at 12:50

" ...every car salesman on the planet tries to discourage a shopper from buying a car they don't have. "

Almost...like I mentioned in the "update" I think things would go differently at a luxury car dealer. The dealers I work with will order you whatever you want as long as the company makes it, electric or otherwise.

wrxkwndo > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:51

Is there perhaps less money to be made on servicing them, as opposed to gas cars? It's no secret that service departments are the real moneymakers at dealerships.

zeontestpilot > deekster_caddy
04/24/2014 at 12:52

Makes sense.

Tom McParland > LJ909
04/24/2014 at 12:53

That is a good point but I think we are beyond the "Greenie early adopter" stage and the folks shopping for these EVs are knowledgeable enough to know they want one. Though I could be giving buyers too much credit.

Duck996s > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:53

Wait, why are we surprised the dealerships are trying to sell something THEY have to sell rather than listening to what the customer is trying to buy?

They'll steer you to whatever the manager told them that morning they need to move!

Tom McParland > wrxkwndo
04/24/2014 at 12:53

That is something Musk mentioned and I think it is definitely a factor.

Patrick George > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:54

Kinja'd!!!

I was gonna write this up but you beat me to it. Instead, here's the fancy graphic I worked up.

jimz > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:56

"...auto dealers have a fundamental conflict of interest between promoting gasoline cars, which constitute virtually all of their revenue, and electric cars, which constitute virtually none."

either Musk is the wealthiest person to ever hold the title of Captain Obvious (seriously, dealers trying to steer buyers away from cars they don't sell is news?) or he's saying EVs are expensive to the point where dealers can't make any money on them.

neither case is a "conflict of interest." Just another temper tantrum from Elon about how he can't get his own set of special rules to play by.

Tom McParland > Patrick George
04/24/2014 at 12:56

They say marriage slows you down Patrick...wait that is age, or is it kids? Sorry to steal your thunder, man. Would it be cool if I used that image?

Toyotathong! > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:56

Update: Just had a Twitter conversation with a Porsche dealer who proudly displays their Panamera-S Hybrid.

Update: People lie on Twitter.

Zachary Vogel > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:56

This never made sense to me, it's really not hard to learn about these cars. If I worked for a toyota dealership and someone came in to buy a Corolla LE ECO, I would talk them into a base Prius plug-in. Explain to the customer that after negotiation and tax credit they both would cost about the same and the prius comes with more things standard like heated seats and navigation. Plus, I'm sure the salesman is making more off of a $30k car than a $20k car.

Patrick George > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 12:57

Go nuts. Photo credit Shutterstock, if you don't mind.

Anonymy > clutchshiftington
04/24/2014 at 13:00

LJ909 > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:02

Yea I think we are beyond that stage. But I think we are still at the stage where people want to be perceived as driving an EV and being electric. Automakers know this too. Thats why a lot of EV models (with the exception of the Model S) blatantly broadcast to the world that they are EV's in the form of annoying badging.

I feel too that while these buyers may be educated enough into knowing they want one, I still dont feel they fully understand range or EV's in general.

Earthbound And Down > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:03

Man, it's almost like it would be really nice if dealerships existed for nothing more than test-drives, with all sales taking place online, free from people trying to bilk you out of extra money on a very large purchase so they can "feed their kids, too."

My career is being built on the back of this industry, but fuck, salesmen need to disappear from the car-buying equation.

Tom McParland > LJ909
04/24/2014 at 13:05

Yeah don't get me started on the badge thing...was there no worse offender than the Escalade Hybrid?

Kinja'd!!!

Umoja > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:06

Dealers lack knowledge of their products? Really?

In other breaking news, tile floors may be slippery when wet, The stove top may get hot if you turn the burner on, and a porcupine makes a poor pet for people who like to cuddle.

My local Ford dealer didn't even know that there was a 1.0L Ecoboost Fiesta on the market.

LJ909 > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:07

Ha! I had totally forgot about this. The GM SUV hybrids were crap btw.

Tom McParland > Umoja
04/24/2014 at 13:07

Wait...wait...did you know that things fall when you drop them?

JCAlan > wrxkwndo
04/24/2014 at 13:10

But not a moneymaker at all for a salesman. He only gets paid on the sale, not the service work done later.

DerrickD > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:14

It's not just hybrids or EVs, it's ALL cars. I went to a BMW test drive where they have the competitors cars on hand. The salesman trys to talk up the handling, which arguably was not any better (top o the line C class vs. bottom of the line 3 series) by stating "see how well the 3 series went around that corner? Nice and composed. If you did that in the Mercedes it would flip over." My wife took that as a challenge. Next comment was, mam you may want to slow down for the next corner. Dumbass.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:14

At the Lexus dealer where I work, we have hybrids on the showroom floor, and our sales staff are quite willing to sell either.

I haven't heard anything negative from them about our hybrid products.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:15

When I was shopping for a used car, two of the lots practically made me test drive Fusion or Milan hybrids. With good reason, they were roughly the same price as the gas model. So perhaps things are different in the used-car-market? I suppose it stands to reason, since it's a whole different ball game.

Tom McParland > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
04/24/2014 at 13:15

Yeah like I said, I think it is a different ballgame when in comes to luxury cars.

wrxkwndo > JCAlan
04/24/2014 at 13:15

If the dealership wants to sell certain cars over others, they can certainly make sure the sales team has the same motivation.

shortyoh > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:15

I don't buy Musk's claim at all.

These examples are simply standard for any dealer - sheer ignorance about products that they're selling combined with attempts to steer customers to vehicles that are more profitable to the dealership AND attempts to discredit the competition. Naturally the Toyota dealer might be inclined to steer people away from plug-ins towards ordinary hybrids - they want to convince people plugins aren't the way to go because they have a weak offering in the plugin market compared to the competition (Ford/GM) but offer a superior offering in the ordinary hybrid market.

The dealership could care less if EVs make up a small % of their revenue if they make a good profit on the sale - and they will do anything to maximize their profit. I'm not surprised that the Ford dealer said you couldn't lease the Focus EV - he may be intending to try to get the buyer to a higher profit sale.

Heck, I've even seen dealers lie about available incentives, hoping to get a higher price then sneak the incentive in via all the paperwork and not have the customer notice (thereby increasing their margin)

JCAlan > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:16

I think he's dreaming. Just because a car doesn't have a combustion engine doesn't mean it will have less service issues. In fact, I would argue that the engine is the most reliable part of a vehicle nowadays, requiring very little maintenance and usually zero repairs. Electronic gizmos, however, fill service department waiting rooms like crazy, and Mr. Musk's cars are full of them. And there is still a transmission, wheel bearings, axles, steering, and a whole host of other moving parts. The idea that electric cars don't require a service department is pie-in-the-sky.

spanfucker retire bitch > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:23

I'm really surprised about the Toyota dealerships. I figured they'd force all of their dealer partners to drill it into their salesman's heads to push the Hybrids and Plug-in Hybrids.

I have a feeling we'll be seeing a response from Toyota in the next few weeks about this. A lot of re-eduction is in order.

Noble Destro > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:25

Are dealers ever required to do training on the new models and technology of their products? Or is the pressure to move product so great they can't make time?

In the last days of Saab, I test drove a 9-3 wagon. The salesman had no clue about the car. His not-busy place of business had two products and he couldn't bother to learn them in and out.

I'd never want to be a dealer but I think I'd always hit my numbers. My angle would be simply be knowing about the car, listening to the customer's needs and being no pressure. This seems intuitive but it is rare that dealers know what they're talking about or shut up long enough to listen to what I'm looking for.

Tom McParland > Noble Destro
04/24/2014 at 13:26

It is hard to keep up with training when your staff turnover is so high

AlwaRightAllTheTime > LJ909
04/24/2014 at 13:29

How, exactly, were the GM 2-Mode hybrids crap?

They achieved a 25% improvement in fuel economy - saves far more fuel than the typical hybrid versus the gas only model.

The reason they didn't sell is because they were too expensive.

jariten1781 > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:36

I had the same problem when trying to look at a manual ATS. First was told that they don't make them. Then, when they were corrected on that was told that they don't have one in stock, already knew they did because I'd scoped it out on a Sunday after seeing it pop up on their online inventory. Then the entire time I was driving it and talking to the sales guy I was constantly bombarded with reasons why I shouldn't get the manual even to the point of trying to convince me to buy a lower trim or the 2.5 instead of the 2.0T. It made literally no sense.

LJ909 > AlwaRightAllTheTime
04/24/2014 at 13:36

That 25% improvement was bull. Me and a group of 5 other guys had one for a week when they were launched. All of us averaged 16-18 mpg normal driving. It was just added on bullshit with a price hike.

clubpro18 > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:38

I find most dealers lack knowledge and are reluctant to sell gas cars.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > spanfucker retire bitch
04/24/2014 at 13:42

Hybrids, yes. Plug-in hybrids, slightly less yes. Outright EVs, not as much. Margin + amount financed + other factors = a standard Prius is the best thing to move.

offroadkarter > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:48

How many people contacting you asking that you find them a car that comes standard with an engine?

spanfucker retire bitch > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
04/24/2014 at 13:52

Wat

Toyota doesn't sell any EV only vehicles outside of California. The closest they get are Plug-in Hybrids. Your argument would make sense for Tesla - not for Toyota.

MikeATX > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 13:57

Most car salesman are idiots, who barely even know anything about the cars they are selling. This really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

That being said, just one more reason I hate car dealers and car salesman. I'd MUCH rather buy my car directly from the manufacturer with a set price that gives them a fair profit margin but doesn't gouge, and doesn't waste inordinate amounts of my time. I wish EVERY manufacturer would sell directly like Tesla.

killamonkey > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 14:02

My hunch is that EVs are lower margin because the cost of development is high relative to the amount of time they've been available. Most gas cars are reusing existing tech and only making cosmetic and minor performance changes.

So it would make business sense for salespeople to not want to sell a low margin car if they can make a much more profitable sale instead.

This would also make sense with the discrepancy of luxury brands which are all high margin.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > spanfucker retire bitch
04/24/2014 at 14:03

Didn't know about Cali only, but it's still likely that the plug-ins have lower margins, and are more likely to have extra-manufacturer incentives... I think. Those incentives not being as profitable in the long run as base price of the whole would suggest - less financed.

Are Ford and others who offer E-only versions similarly state-limited? I admit I'm not 100% on top of things, not having gone new-car shopping recently.

user314 > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 14:08

This is part of his reasoning why Telsa does not want to franchise through traditional dealership

So he refuses to sell his cars in a dealership, because he believes dealerships won't sell his cars?

Kinja'd!!!

You'd think as smart as Musk is, he'd know a self-fulfilling prophecy.

factsaboutrats > Earthbound And Down
04/24/2014 at 14:14

So do third party moochers that live off the back of salespeoples hard work.

velyse > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 14:17

Implying there's no business model around the sales and service of the Tesla models. News flash, they do require maintenance. They still have electrical systems and wear and tear items. Sure there's less to go wrong mechanically under the hood but you're kidding yourself if you think suspension, steering, brakes, window motors, trunk latches, and a million other fucking parts in a car aren't going to break.

Not to mention, what happens when a customer wants to trade in a vehicle? There's a whole used-car department and the service department will still work on those used cars and other makes, there's always recon to be done. A large portion of a dealers sales income is from the used car department.

The idea that a Tesla is maintenance free only applies oil changes, belts, and air filters. There's still brakes, tires, suspension componants, and as I said before, a billion other componants that break in every car that don't relate to the engine in any such way.

velyse > wrxkwndo
04/24/2014 at 14:20

They're not going to have ICE componants, right, but what about the REST of the car? springs dont crack? shocks don't go bad? Door handles don't break? Are they using some sort of unobtainuim that prevents you from ever needing change ball joints down the road? Magic steering linkage that never wears out. Window regulators that don't fail, ever.

velyse > JCAlan
04/24/2014 at 14:21

Totally agree, engines that run for hundreds of thousands of miles with nothing more than a few hundred dollar services over their lives. The service department is really going to lose out on those oil changes they make virtually no money on anyway.

spanfucker retire bitch > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
04/24/2014 at 14:23

Not all of them limit EV sales to California, but many do due to the State's requirement to have an EV on sale. The Spark EV for example is only available in California and the only reason the Spark EV exists is to satisfy California's auto laws.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > spanfucker retire bitch
04/24/2014 at 14:25

Thanks for the info, by the way. I blithely assumed that since the study was on EVs, that it would be limited to true EV sales, so "Toyota almost doesn't sell EVs" muddled my expectations a bit.

55Buick, Oversteer Scientist > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 14:26

It's been going on forever. Back in 2002, My dad bought a Rav4 EV as a DD. They made less than 100 of these things. Anyway, I can't remember exactly why, but he made a call to the dealership about it (a few year after purchasing it.) They denied even making them. They refused to believe that the things even existed, and they only did when he brought it to the dealership. Another time, someone stopped him about it in a Safeway parking lot. She said she had called toyota about rav4 EVs, and toyota themselves (not a dealer, who might not have known about such a rare car) denied making them. I wonder why...?

Mattbob > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 14:41

Every time I see that lead image, I crack up. Thanks. Good article too.

factsaboutrats > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 14:45

It is crazy of Eleon Musk to think that a Tesla FRANCHISE would actively not try to sell Model S's(?). First, Musk/Tesla would be able to pick the owner they want to run the franchise. Second, the model S is hotter than a fire cracker. Salespeople want to sell cars in high demand, as they demand MSRP w no discounts. Doesn't matter if it's an EV or a dump truck. No way that saleperson at a Tesla owned franchise would steer a customer away from a Model S. That is the reson he's giving for not wanting to franchise. Think about it, does that make sense?

His logic is not just flawed, it's a flat out lie.

His reason for wanting Tesla owned stores is simple, control and profit. If Tesla owned the store, TESLA KEEPS ALL THE MONEY. Not that hard to figure out. As a side effect, he would also break the whole car manufacturer/dealer system as it is now., and that would satisfy his ego. He may have another endgame in mind as well, but for sure his stated reasoning right now is pure BS. If he just came out and told the truth, I would have more respect for him, as it is, he thinks he's gaming everybody, it doesn't sit right w me.

Tom McParland > Mattbob
04/24/2014 at 14:58

Yeah I apparently beat Patrick to this story and he had a picture ready to go. He let me use his picture.

King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 14:59

I have always thought that while the franchise model for dealers might be able to continue, the sales consultant turnover is a MAJOR issue. Providing consultants with base salaries +bonus , cutting down on the number of total consultants, and making the consultants act as more, well, consultants rather than "salesmen" (with even the paperwork being prepared by office staff) would be more beneficial to the buying process. Removing the belief in (and ability to) haggle is also important. What you see is what you get as it were...

Tom McParland > King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider
04/24/2014 at 15:00

I have been thinking about this for awhile now...time to write another article.

Earthbound And Down > factsaboutrats
04/24/2014 at 15:05

Some of that might be true, but it's also about keeping costs down.

You throw a middleman into the equation, and now there's all sorts of ancillary costs that get thrown onto — you guessed it — the car buyers.

Furthermore, it's about mitigating costs for cars that, like you say, are hot . What do dealers do with hot cars, like Corvette Stingrays and GT-Rs? They tack on thousands (if not tens of thousands of dollars) for "market adjustment." Basically, they milk the early adopters for more money just because they can .

Tesla wants its cars is as many hands as possible, and tacking on costs in the way of middlemen and "market adjustment" markups is only going to narrow that pool, not expand it. And frankly, it's bullshit that buyers have to pay those costs in the first place.

factsaboutrats > Patrick George
04/24/2014 at 15:05

Yeah, a couple points people here are failing to grasp. First, when a customer comes in looking for a specific vehicle, they usually have done hours and hours of online reaserch ONE ONE CAR. They start off knowing more details than the average salesperson who usually carries more general knowledge, but on 50+ models. Now, the customer knows for a fact(!) that the Toyota Yaris 7 door SE comes in Blazing Orange Polka-Dot, and OMG I can't believe that this salesperson doesn't know that! What the real story is is that the market has spoken on the Toyota Yaris 7 door SE in Orange Polka Dot, and guess what? No one wants one. Thus, the salesperson has never even seen one, and yes, does have less knowledge on that practically non-existent model. But I saw it on the internet, you say. The market has weeded that sucker out in the real world.

Salespeople will sell whatever they can sells. If you want to buy an EV and we can get an EV, by golly we will sell you an EV, no problem. You want an EV in one specific color and equipment package that has to be special ordered from Japan on a 4 month wait? You're going to get the switch pitch.

Commenters act like this is one huge conspiracy by Dealers. Your not talking to a Dealer, you're talking to a salesperson. They will sell you whatever they can. Anytime. Everytime. But guess what? Want a $70,000 Camaro Z/28, but have no cash down and make $2000.00 a month before tax? Get ready to get switched.

There is always more to the story than OMG SALESPEOPLE SUCK LET'S MAKE A COOL MEME.

I hate the anti-dealer sentiment that comes from the articles here.

AlwaRightAllTheTime > LJ909
04/24/2014 at 15:06

Sorry, that's a crock.

I know several people who worked on the development of them and it was easily achievable. When driven carefully, it was possible to get 25 mpg.

Of course if some people drive them they will try to prove that they WON'T get the mileage.

Tom McParland > factsaboutrats
04/24/2014 at 15:13

3rd party moochers you say...I see none of the sort around these parts

Kinja'd!!!

MDP310 > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 15:20

Honda does this too. A few years ago my mom wanted to trade her CRV for an Insight. The guy steered her towards the Fit. They must get a higher profit on pure-gas cars.

GrauGeist > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 15:24

Picking Toyota in New York is a very bad choice, as they have no real interest in selling EVs. They RAV-4 EV is a California compliance car using Tesla technology - they probably lose 5 figures on every single one they sell. The Plug-in Prius is another California car engineered to meet the letter of the law for HOV access, nothing further - it's literally a hybrid with marginally more battery capability. Toyota wants to sell Prius HSD cars using their technology, not plug-ins advancing someone else's agenda and profits.

Had CR gone to a Chevy or Nissan dealership in California, things should have been very, very different. Had they gone to Cadillac in SoCal, and expressed interest in the ELR, they would have had great results (Caddy is actively doing ELR marketing here - the Irvine Spectrum is literally festooned with giant ELR banners everywhere you look). All of these are in-house technology by OEMs that have spent BILLIONS to develop EVs. Nissan is one of the biggest global sellers. GM sells at least 3 plug-ins in the US alone. Even Ford is making an honest run at plug-ins using in-house technology.

But if your intent is to say that current OEMs aren't committed to EVs, by all means, go see Honda, Toyota and Chrysler. If your intent is to say that OEMs want to sell EVs, then hit the Chevy, Nissan, and Ford dealers in California.

PedalHead > LJ909
04/24/2014 at 15:25

Well, 16-18 sounds crappy but you would have probably gotten 12-14 with out the hybrid. So It isn't an "effective" hybrid in that the overall fuel economy is still crappy, but it is still more efficient than the regular version.

factsaboutrats > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 15:25

Maybe try living in car saleperson's shoes for a while, see what you think then.

GrauGeist > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
04/24/2014 at 15:26

If Toyota doesn't get CARB credits, they don't want to sell it.

GrauGeist > LJ909
04/24/2014 at 15:27

The gen 1 & 2 Prius were purchased for HOV access, simple as that.

factsaboutrats > Earthbound And Down
04/24/2014 at 15:27

The free market is bullshit, really? Higher cost for low supply, high demand products is bullshit, really? Call Wall Street, we've been doing it wrong for centuries!

GrauGeist > LJ909
04/24/2014 at 15:29

The only EV badging that matters is this one:

Kinja'd!!!

GrauGeist > LJ909
04/24/2014 at 15:30

That's a totally fucking stupid thing to say.

The GM Dual-Mode Hybrid saves more gas than a Prius does over a Corolla.

Based on actual gallons not burned, those hybrid SUVs are dramatically greener than any compact car.

GrauGeist > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
04/24/2014 at 15:32

The RAV-4 EV is technically a California-only car. If you transport it to a non-CARB zone (e.g. Pennsylvania), Toyota will refuse to honor warranty and extended warranty.

Earthbound And Down > factsaboutrats
04/24/2014 at 15:33

That's not the free market, it's opportunistic thievery.

You want to talk about the free market? Get rid of dealership protection laws and let the consumers decide what method of car-buying they want.

GrauGeist > spanfucker retire bitch
04/24/2014 at 15:33

False. The Spark is on sale in Oregon.

GrauGeist > wrxkwndo
04/24/2014 at 15:35

The salesman doesn't give a shit about service. Nobody in the service department gives him kickbacks. Fuck them.

And same with the "service advisor". He doesn't give a fuck where the car was sold. Only that he's writing your service.

Earthbound And Down > factsaboutrats
04/24/2014 at 15:36

"Salespeople will sell whatever they can sells."
"They will sell you whatever they can. Anytime. Everytime."

Well that sure doesn't sound like somebody with the consumer's best interests as top priority.

GrauGeist > velyse
04/24/2014 at 15:36

Hey, those service departments lose $5 in "free" car washes every single time you bring the car in!

factsaboutrats > Earthbound And Down
04/24/2014 at 15:38

How so?

GrauGeist > Earthbound And Down
04/24/2014 at 15:38

If you were smarter, you could simply work with the fleet sales manager.

GrauGeist > 55Buick, Oversteer Scientist
04/24/2014 at 15:39

The RAV-4 EV is a low-grade Tesla wearing a Toyota suit, that's why.

GrauGeist > jariten1781
04/24/2014 at 15:40

I'd have asked for a different salesman if he's pissing you off.

Tell the manager you demand a different salesman who will help you with getting a MTX ATS, and that you want NONE of the commission going to the first guy, or you're going to another dealer. That'll get their attention.

factsaboutrats > Earthbound And Down
04/24/2014 at 15:47

The consumer has the consumers best interest as top priority. You want your best interest to be the TOP priority for the salesperson? Really? The customer HAS to be satisfied to do business, and good business means a happy customer. The TOP priority for a salesperson is....to sell a car. Wow, what inside knowledge.

Note I didn't say "to sell a car by any means possible" or "to sell a car by hook or by crook".

Nor did I say that a customers best interest is not a priority. It has to be to do business. No one is going to do business with someone they don't like or feel like is not treating them fairly.

When you but a house, do you think the other party has your interest as the TOP priority?

A stereo?

In what transaction does the other party list YOUR best interest as the TOP priority?

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 15:47

"Elon Musk has maintained for the longest time that dealerships will sway people away from EVs and into gas cars."

In a nutshell... it's the same problem Apple had trying to sell Macs in stores like Best Buy back in the 1990s. The sales people typically didn't know jack shit and would just direct people to a cheaper PC clone... and being completely ignorant over the benefits a Mac had that would appeal to at least some shoppers.

On top of that, retailers expect to take a cut... and for what? Doing a shitty job selling your product?

Thus Apple started their own stores who specialized in Apple products... and the rest is history.

This is the lesson Elon Musk is following.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 15:52

Unless it's from Tom, I purposely hate salesman who try to dissuade people from buying green. My uncle wanted a Nissan Leaf once, they tried to sell him a Versa which he hated.

To that salesman:

Kinja'd!!!

jariten1781 > GrauGeist
04/24/2014 at 15:56

Well, if I'd bought one I'd have custom ordered anyway from the dealer closer to my house. Only reason I was at that dealer was because it was the only MT ATS in the entire metro sitting on a lot that I could test drive. Ended up going in a different direction regardless.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > JCAlan
04/24/2014 at 16:12

I'm pretty sure EV will need less service on average. On an EV you won't need to routinely change the Oil, Coolant, Timing belt, exhaust, spark plugs, plug wires and the engine air intake filter. Nor will you need things like emissions tests, ignition coils, 02 sensors, air intake sensors, cam position sensors, catalytic converters or Urea fluid (for some modern diesels to meet emissions).

Though even EVs will need things like tires, brakes and have things like collision damage repaired.

Tom McParland > factsaboutrats
04/24/2014 at 16:12

First I actually think that Tesla's best bet is to franchise

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/tesla-can-do-m…

Second...how exactly am I "living off your back." I have a buyer for a car, you have said car. I ask you for your best price, you give me the best price with no bullshit you get my buyer. I'm not much different than TrueCar, only I don't charge you a thing.

deekster_caddy > velyse
04/24/2014 at 16:16

Most of that stuff is good for at least the first 7 or 8 years, and after that you aren't bringing it to the dealership for service anyway. My Volt has a 7500 mile service interval so the dealership can charge me $45 to check the coolant level (very important) and the expiration date on the can of fix a flat in the trunk. If they are lucky I would also give them $29 to rotate the tires. I'm not kidding.

I will check the coolant level myself thank you (all 3 reservoirs). So the dealer only gets money from me (from GM, really) if I need a software update on something. I rotate my own tires every fall and spring (snow tire swaps) so I don't care about that either. The can of fix a flat in the trunk? Who cares. Really.

So my dealership made a very little bit of money from my sale, none from the extra shit I refused in the "Finance office", nothing from service visits. Unless I have a major thing go wrong, I don't plan on them getting any money from me anytime soon. I'll be buying the factory service manual if and when the time comes.

I just did my first oil change (myself thank you very much) - it had 30% left but since I have 4,000 miles on the ICE, I decided it was time. I could probably have made it the full 2 years they recommend as a maximum.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > velyse
04/24/2014 at 16:17

"Totally agree, engines that run for hundreds of thousands of miles with nothing more than a few hundred dollar services over their lives"

More like a few thousand dollars of service when you include all the oil changes, coolant changes, air filters, timing belt changes, spark plugs, O2 sensors and other stuff.

If you presume that the engine's service life is 10 years, and if you do 1 (full synthetic) to 4 oil changes (regular oil) a year, that alone works out to at least $1000 by the time you hit the 10 year mark.

factsaboutrats > King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider
04/24/2014 at 16:17

I agree with everything you said....except for the last sentence. Customers simply do not accept the "what you see is what you get". You can't as Saturn, but you can ask Scion, for now. The fact that dealers have propagated this model for decades does not help, but it's more than that. People want a deal. They wait for a sale. They clip coupons. No one wants to be told "this is it and that's that." No major 5 or 6 figure purchase is done like that. Houses? Factories? Business's? Buying steel for your factory? Get ready to negotiate.

Earthbound And Down > factsaboutrats
04/24/2014 at 16:24

Pushing the switch pitch over a special order proves that sales is about pushing heads in and out the door and collecting commission checks. Not that I didn't know that before. I'm not so naive as to believe that people are more motivated by smiles than by money.

This went far past my original thesis. All I'm saying is that everybody would be a lot better off if dealerships existed just for test-drives, deliveries, and service, and that all ordering and customizing was done online, beamed directly to the factory, who then builds you the car you want, at a set price. Like Tesla. I don't give a flying fuck if the testdrive/delivery/service facility was owned by the manufacturer or not.

That might put people out of jobs, but hey, there aren't a whole ton of people manning telegraphs these days, either. There's always other shit to sell anyhow. Technology should have made this method of car-buying obsolete by now.

factsaboutrats > Tom McParland
04/24/2014 at 16:25

To me. Sorry, your making a living off the customers back. Taking money from them instead of the big bad dealer. You simply have to dupe the customer into thinking that they need you. They don't know they can get the same deal (minus your fee) by themselves, because that's the line you feed them.

Do you have the customers best interest as TOP priority?

And thank you for confirming what I already knew about 3rd party lead providers.

factsaboutrats > Earthbound And Down
04/24/2014 at 16:33

Ok, my friend. Next time you have a bad experience with every car dealer you go to, you might look to the mirror for the problem.