Oppo, teach me something new: GM LS/Ford V8 Motors Edition

"K-Roll-PorscheTamer" (k-roll390) 04/22/2014 at 19:37 • Filed to: Engines

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What can you guys tell me about these engines? pros, cons, faults, problems? Which is best in your opinion. I want to know everything possible about these engines really and would rather not go to the wiki because that's boring and no fun.

Have a Mach 1 and a Z/28

KatzManDu > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 19:45

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I have more hands-on familiarity with GM engines.

Adjusting the timing on the Ford engines is easier, since the distributor is on the front of the engine. Think about it, holding a timing light and trying to turn/adjust the distributor?

That's the only major thing I can think of.

EDIT: I'm only talking about the engines of the vintage in the example cars you posted. The modern LSX engines versus modern Ford V8s is another story.

lone_liberal > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 19:45

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Mod motors are OHC while LSs are pushrod. This means that the LS is a smaller package which makes it easier to stuff in various engine bays hence part of their popularity when it comes to engine swaps.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > lone_liberal 04/22/2014 at 19:48

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That would explain why LS swaps are popular with 944s...

Axel-Ripper > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 19:51

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Any amount of power and reliability is possible with enough money.

Ford Windsor V8's are pretty ubiquitous. They're Ford's Small Block. There are also Cleveland V8s that were supposed to replace the Windsor, but the Windsor outlasted them. The canted valve configuration on the Clevelands was desirable, but there was an oiling problem in the blocks that caused people to shy away (that and the fact they're a bit larger of a motor, so harder to package). You can take the Cleveland heads and put them on a Windsor block with some modifications, creating a Clevor. This is actually what the original Boss 302 was: A Windsor 302 block with Cleveland heads. The Cleveland engine had not made it to production yet, but they wanted the head design.

You can also have 2V and 4V (or 2 barrel/4 barrel - they're all 2 valve heads) Cleveland heads. 4V engines had significantly larger ports and valves for high end power, but they aren't very streetable (2V heads produce more power/torque below about 5k RPM). There's also a difference in the combustion chamber between them, with the Aussie 302 head having what is generally considered the "best of both worlds" with the combustion chamber from the 4V with the ports of the 2V.

dogisbadob > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 19:51

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ooooo blue engine paint!!!!

dogisbadob > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 19:52

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I'd love to put the split bumper front end on a 78-81 car (for the T-tops, of course)

dogisbadob > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 19:52

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T-tops didn't come until 78 :(

(the Trans Am got them in 76 as a limited edition, regular option in 77)

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Axel-Ripper 04/22/2014 at 19:54

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Neat! The thought of Boss 302 Clevor engine is funny, even though it actually happened.

Axel-Ripper > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 19:58

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That is why LS swaps are popular in anything. That and the fact they can be had really cheap out of any wrecked trucks and are easy to get power out of. Also, the plug and play crate motors that Chevy Performance sells are liked by people who spend tons on the suspension/body and want something reliable and easy under the hood so they can drive rather than tune.

The E-Rod kit they have is also helpful to those in California, as it is approved by CARB for use in older vehicles, with no emissions inspection.

Axel-Ripper > KatzManDu 04/22/2014 at 20:00

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Small Block Chevys: The reason this tool exists.

Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 20:04

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Parts are most plentiful for the old SBC, not the LS nor a modern Ford. They can be heavy, though. Both classic Ford and classic Chevy have engines mostly sorted out into small block and big block families - with some breakaways but very few families for each. Look up the Cleveland engine, the Windsor engine, and the FE for Ford, and small block Chevy/big block Chevy for Chevy. Related GM developments exist in parallel for BOP(Buick, Olds, Pontiac) lines.

Moving into modern engines, the old-style big block isn't really a thing anymore. Instead we have the LS engines from GM (aluminum with lots of variation), and multiple lines of modern line Fords- the best known being the Modular.

A lot of what we can tell you depends on whether you're more interested in modern engines or old, whether you like pushrods or OHC, what weight/size of block you like, and what cars all these engines were in.

The short answer to getting a dummy-proof engine would probably be to get a 302/351 Ford or 350 Chevy. Like cockroaches, everywhere, cheap. If you want reliable cheap modern, you'd usually go for an LS unless a modular bolted easily to your project. But... less character, less classic. If I were you, I'd just look up LS, 4.6, 302s, 390s. 350s, 427s on YouTube and see what speaks to you. Design, engine note, layout, available options - go immersion. Find *your* engine, and return.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Axel-Ripper 04/22/2014 at 20:07

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I haven't a clue what that tool is..

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull 04/22/2014 at 20:12

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I like this idea! Thanks for the info.

Racescort666 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 20:16

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"Better" is a matter of preference. What engine models specifically are you interested in? Your lead image is a 351 Windsor, the Mustang Mach 1 could be had with a 351 Windsor, 351 Cleveland, or a 428 Cobra Jet. The Camaro shown could be had with a Chevy Small Block or a Chevy Big Block in various displacements. While you ask about the LS series which is SBC Gen III and Gen IV.

I guess this is an interesting history lesson that a friend of mine explained to me: since uniting all of it's brands (and even before doing so) GM has been fairly change-adverse. For example, the current line of small blocks are all still very similar in overall dimensions to the original Gen I that came out in the 50s. That is, bore spacing hasn't changed and deck height has remained relatively constant. Bore spacing is the CL to CL distance of the cylinders and deck height is the distance from crank CL to the top of the block where the cylinder head mates to the block.

Side note: all of GM's current V8s are small blocks regardless of displacement. This has to do with the engine family rather than the displacement of the engine. That's why you can have a 454 cubic inch small block while in olden days 454 meant big block. The big blocks were a different architecture, bore spacing was wider, deck height was taller.

Ford, on the other hand, has never been afraid of changing things up. The 289s and 302s that came in the early Mustangs were part of the Windsor engine family. The Windsor engine family however, has several engine components that are not interchangeable. For example, the 351W has a taller deck height than the 302 and I believe the crank to cam CL distance was more. This makes cranks and rods not interchangeable but I believe pistons and heads are (someone will probably correct me if I'm wrong). The Cleveland block was an entirely (well, mostly) different engine line and most of the parts are not interchangeable without modification.

This same discrepancy has carried over into Ford's more modern engines specifically the Modular engine family. The name is misleading, I know. Supposedly "Modular" was for the factory tooling. The 4.6L modular that came in trucks and several cars has the same bore spacing and piston diameter as the 5.4L which has a longer stroke getting the displacement. The crankshafts on these 2 motors are not interchangeable without modification. The 5.4L has a taller deck height and I believe some parts of the block are stretched out a bit giving it more room. While still considered part of the Modular family the 6.2L that's in the Raptor and is an option for the regular F-150s, is again different than the rest of the engines as it has an increased bore spacing than the rest of the Modular engine line.

Another thing to note, Ford has typically made larger (externally) engines than GM. The current Coyote V8 is huge compared to it's 6.2L LS3 counterpart in the myriad of GM vehicles. Part of this is because GM is still using a pushrod configuration which keeps the heads small but also because GM has tended to keep short deck heights. The LS series (according to my GM Performance Parts book) has a deck height of 9.240" while for an engine of larger displacement (5.4L) Ford is using 10.079".

I hope you have enjoyed.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Racescort666 04/22/2014 at 20:21

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I'm not sure what engines I'm interested in, I figured I could just ask the question as a way of covering the entire subject. I guess I would be interested in the 302s, 427, 5.0L Coyote, Windsor and Cleveland as those are the ones I hear about most frequently.

I definitely enjoyed this read!

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 20:22

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This is all you really need to know: 302-based stroked/bored (363) with quad Weber 48 IDAs.

Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 20:27

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"My" engine so far is the Ford 390, or if small block, the Rover V8. The first, because it's just sex, the second because it's the OG aluminum v8 and sounds like an airplane - I also like the design.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 20:45

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Interesting tidbit: The 4.3 V6L GM shoved in their small trucks and vans is just a 5.7L V8 with the two cylinders lopped off.

LS's smaller pushrod design make them easier to put in engine bays not designed to hold V8 engines. That's why their so popular for swaps.

People say the truck 6.2 and Corvette 6.2 V8 are the same, but they aren't. They share more parts this generation than any other though.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 04/22/2014 at 21:06

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How different are the 6.2 V8s?

Axel-Ripper > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/22/2014 at 21:39

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That is a crows foot wrench. Basically an open ended wrench on the end of a socket for hard to reach bolts, like the one holding the distributor into a small block Chevy

Axel-Ripper > Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull 04/22/2014 at 21:40

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The design which came from Olds/Buick in the early 60s.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull 04/22/2014 at 22:33

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The 390's kinda actually suck though. There are better FE's out there.

briannutter1 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/23/2014 at 12:39

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Gen 3 was the original LS (ls1, Ls6, Ls2) mostly characterized by their cathedral port cylinder heads. Very compact, light, easy to modify, and a huge aftermarket. Gen 4 (Ls3, Ls7, LS9, LSA, L99) have bigger bores (same outside dimensions) with rectangle port heads that flow a bit more air. Cam Phasing and cylinder deactivation can be found on the automatic equipped cars and trucks. Gen 5 is the latest "LT1" (similar block and head package size, but different port configuarion and direct injection (like a diesel) for better emissions. Ford's 4V Mod Motors are stout and hold up to boost well (iron block especially). The Coyote DOHC has better heads and bases a lot of improvements on the earlier Ford Gt engine. The cylinder heads are very comparable to Honda K20 heads. I'm looking foward to seeing what it's capable of in the 2015 Mustang. It's heavier with a higher cg, more complex, package size restricts suspension and body dimensnions. It's not as easy to modify internally than a LS, but a great engine just the same. My personal belief is it probably remains OHC because it's "sophisticated" and Europeany, but whatever floats their boat. European car makers would be smart to revisit pushrods, but their taxation based on displacement system creates issues.