The 964 is One of the Best Looking 911s EVER!

"K-Roll-PorscheTamer" (k-roll390) 04/05/2014 at 11:47 • Filed to: Porsche 911, 964

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I can't understand why almost everyone rags on the 964. Somehow, it's regarded as the ugliest iteration of the 911 ever; in some cases, worse than the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Now I've made a previous post stating that the 996 is a proper 911 that should be considered if you're looking for one, but now I'm going to explain how the 964 truly is a great, good looking car.

Whenever you see a debate between the 964 and 993, almost always, you'll see everyone choose the 993 and the reasoning is, "It's the last of the air-cooled 911s, therefore it is the best!" or "It looks better". Well, while looks can be subjective, we must look at where this generation came from...

This is the 3.2 Carrera; the last of the "ORIGINAL" 911s. If you don't know what I'm talking about, let me explain with a quick history lesson:

In 1963, Porsche gave the world the best rear-engined car the world had ever seen. The 911, originally starting out with a 2.0L engine, knicknamed as a "long-hood" for how the hood extends all the way to the front. The first "makeover" for the 911 came in 1974 with the start of the G-Models; sexy impact bumpers galore! Displacement was bumped up to 2.7L, great for engine torque, bad for the fact that they continued to use the 915 transmission until the introduction of the 3.2 Carrera in 1984, which got the bulletproof, Getrag-sourced G50 tranny in 1987(Note, they started using the G50 on the 930 Turbo, but I'm disregarding that right now).

Now we've got the 964...now, lets get to the point of why I think everyone calls the 964 the "ugly duck" of the 911 family:

IT'S THE BUMPERS!

Now this is what annoys me, I don't find them ugly at all! Think of them as an "evolution" of the G-Model's impact bumpers. Everyone complained that the impact bumpers ruined the lines of the 911, what was done with the 964 was clearly an attempt to bring back those lines that everyone desired so much, but with little altercation to the overall design. You can very easily see that the general shape of the bumpers remains true, but much more refined, smoothed out and most of all cleaner.

The integration of the fog lights and turn signals was a great idea to keep everything neat and tidy.

This 911 is what I call, the last of the original 911s, and why? Because not only does it give you the iconic shape of the classic 911, pronounced headlights, roof line, belt line and overall disposition, but it's also one of the last that can give you the real connection to your car, that visceral feeling that only you can drive the car and if you fail, it'll kill you "feeling". Sure it was the first to introduce ABS and power steering and a much improved HVAC compared to it's predecessor, but those systems, compared to the 993, are much more primitive, much more inefficient, and most importantly, LESS REFINED. And that being said, the 911 wasn't all about refinement and comfort, it was about the drive, just the car and the driver out on that perfect road; where the only thing keeping the driver alive and the car on the road, is the driver.

Another benefit of the 964? With it's less complicated design, it is, in fact much cheaper to own compared to the 993, that's not to say that it doesn't have it's own problems, most, if not each 911 generation has it's own special problem; be it the early G-Model's 915 tranny being stressed by the 2.7L engine and of course the magnesium engine case and pulling head studs, the 996 and 997.1 and their notorious IMS/RMS failures, and most generations have some form of oil leak problem(not sure if that holds true on the 991). The 964 is actually pretty bulletproof like the previous 3.2 Carrera, but one thing any Porsche-phile will tell you is to stay away from the 1990 Carrera 4, I'll have to eat some of my own words on this but this is the only time where being primative isn't a good thing, the 993 is superior in it's AWD setup, but if you want the original 911 driving experience, you'd probably take the RWD setup, I know I would, and one day I WILL.

At the end of the day, it truly is your decision and oppinion on what you think of the 964, but I feel the 911's styling reached its pinnacle with the 964, integrating the bumpers and bulging, muscular fenders of the Carrera into a clean package reminiscent of the original 911. Contemporary, yet classic. Of course—it should go without saying—styling evaluations are extremely subjective and personal.

Also, I will say that 993s are fabulous cars, but they are beginning to reveal their own quirks as they age... some of these quirks being fairly significant. As a matter of fact, in the 993 "community," '95s are starting to gain a (unfair, IMO) reputation as being a model year to avoid.

And when you think about it, the design of the 993 and 996 look quite similar; wait... WHAT?!?

lonestranger > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 12:42

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You mean, there are people who don't like the 964's looks? Weirdos.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > lonestranger 04/05/2014 at 12:49

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Such weirdos...

This might be my new wallpaper:

Manuél Ferrari > lonestranger 04/05/2014 at 13:04

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So many people don't like it.

It's so awesome!

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 13:06

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Mods - please ask Michael to FP this. Thanks!!

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 04/05/2014 at 13:08

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Who's Michael?

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 13:13

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The Saturday guy who writes for and runs FP:

http://ballaban.kinja.com

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 04/05/2014 at 13:36

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Oh cool! That'd be awesome! :)

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 04/05/2014 at 14:00

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How does he see it?

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 14:07

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I think the best way is to Tweet him but I don't use Twitter. Do you have it?

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 04/05/2014 at 14:08

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Sadly I don't have/use a twitter. :(

What do we do now?

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 04/05/2014 at 14:10

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Why not comment with a link to this on one of his posts?

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 14:10

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I'll ask Brian S

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 14:10

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good idea! I'll do that now

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 04/05/2014 at 14:13

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Oh yeah! He was the first to recommend it! He likes Porsche too! :)

mrsmartypants > lonestranger 04/05/2014 at 15:13

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Personally I love the 993 gen. but these are a close second.

jarvik7 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:17

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As a 911sc owner (sans rear spoiler), I love the lines of the 964. First series with the intergrated rear spoiler in the deck lid. Love it! Still love to watch them rise at speed!

86it > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:17

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I have to disagree. While the 964 has grown on me, the 993 is still the ultimate air-cooled Porsche 911. They smoothed everything out and it looks gorgeous.

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:17

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I just checked 964 prices. Holy hell prices have gone up a lot since I last checked :(

Anyone who bought a C2 coupe with an MT a couple years ago is sitting pretty right now.

Brian Silvestro > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:18

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The only bad looking version of the 911 is the 996. I thought that was a universal fact.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:20

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Singer 911 begs to differ.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 04/05/2014 at 15:21

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Damn...What about 3.2 Carrera and 911SC prices?

86it > 86it 04/05/2014 at 15:21

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Well.....at least until you get to the Targa. Give me a 964 Targa over a 993 any day.

thechosenwonton > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:23

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Cannot argue with that; one of my favorite looking "supercars" of all time is the Ruf Yellowbird, and this looks essentially identical (yes, I am aware that that is not a Porsche, but try explaining that to your girlfriend without a "rolleyes" at the end). That and the fact that it still is considered "stupid fast" to this day. Favorite car in FM5 as well :)

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:24

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I think those prices started going up before the 964 prices did.

There are no more air cooler deals left :/

Hmm what about getting a 964 C4 for cheap and ripping out the AWD system? Is that doable? I know it's doable on the 996 Turbo without harming the car at all. A lot of guys on Porsche forums have done the mod.

GreatPower > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:25

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964? Yes. Turbo...mandatory. Best overkill factory wing in history.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > thechosenwonton 04/05/2014 at 15:26

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Favorite car in FM4 and FM5! I tried to explain it to my mom...She got it!

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 04/05/2014 at 15:27

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Seems like a lot of work...Are my Air-cooled dreams over then? :(

This is a sad day...

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > jarvik7 04/05/2014 at 15:28

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I've never seen one in person, I'm still waiting to see one!

Hell, the only 911 I've ever taken a ride in is my dad's '74! Who wants to give this guy free rides! :P

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:31

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Crap it's expensive to do:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-964-99…

Cheaper conversion on the 993

So I guess we need to start looking for cheap 993 C4s!

CAcoalminer > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:34

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No because the 997.2 is.

NoahthePorscheGuy > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:35

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Meh. I see what you are saying, but I still don't think its the best looking. I prefer the early models for looks. I'm not sure why you felt the need to explain all the mechanical changes etc if the argument was for aesthetics. If the argument is about aesthetics, stay focused on the aesthetics. Also the G50 was added in 1987, not 1984. Good job.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 04/05/2014 at 15:36

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Aww but I want a C2 For maximum Hoonage! And the challenge in the winter...

I want one of the following:

'87-89 Carrera 3.2

'90-94 964 C2

'95-98 993 C2

997 GTS

991 C2

930 Turbo

Which of these can be had for $20-30k? BEING A POOR COLLEGE STUDENT SUCKS! :(

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:38

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what I meant was buy a cheap 993 C4 if you can find a great deal and then convert it to RWD since it's easier to do on the 993

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > NoahthePorscheGuy 04/05/2014 at 15:39

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Yeah, reading it over, I did lose focus at the end...

I didn't mean to say that the G50 came out in '84, Imeant the 3.2s came out in '84 and I should've said the G50 came in '87. I'm not sure I'm good at this automotive, argumentative post stuff. :(

But I too like the looks of the classic.

Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:40

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If poor college students can now afford $20-$30k cars, then being a college student has REALLY changed since I was one. Just imagine what a wealthy one can get!

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 04/05/2014 at 15:41

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Oh. Hmm, maybe one day...

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! 04/05/2014 at 15:43

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Oh no! I'm just curious! Which ones are in that price range, hopefully I can afford one in the future..

dast87 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:43

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I'll just leave this here

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 15:45

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whoa check out the price on this low mileage car:

I thought you'd like this 1981 Porsche 911 on AutoTrader.com.

http://m.autotrader.com/vdp.html?id=29…

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 04/05/2014 at 15:52

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If only my dad would've let me have one! He kept on arguing that they'd be more expensive to maintain than an ST, and he also wanted a warranty too. I can top that with this, I really wanted this BADLY!

http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/ctd/440526…

Powersurge > 86it 04/05/2014 at 15:58

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Totally agree. A 993 parked next to a 964 is like a thoroughbred standing next to an old donkey.

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:00

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He's right BUT and air cooled 911 will appreciate and that will make up for the maintenance costs

hike > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:03

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I quite like it, especially as a Speedster.

mtdrift > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:05

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Dude - I agree with you 100%.

But please. For the love of all that is good on this earth - delete this post immediately. 964 values are already climbing, and you're just encouraging it. I'm trying to buy one while they're still (relatively) flying under the radar, and you're not helping.

Before I know it, I'll be relegated to a 2.7. :(

Powersurge > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:06

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I really don't understand the hate for the 996. Yeah the early ones with the Boxster headlights were a huge fuck-up on Porsche's part, but after the face-lift I think it became one of the most beautiful 911s. The proportions are absolutely perfect, especially on the more basic Carrera & Targa models. It looks light, taught, and agile. For me it's the essential sportscar.

How can you say this is unattractive?

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > mtdrift 04/05/2014 at 16:10

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At least you can afford one. I'm still in college making minimum wage. I'm surprised the values are even climbing for it. My dad's already got a 2.7 in our garage and he won't let me drive it! Nothing wrong with them either, they're still great cars and the most affordable 911s you can buy. It'll be years before I can even consider owning one so consider yourself lucky.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Powersurge 04/05/2014 at 16:11

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I don't know! I actually like the Boxster headlights(Don't Kill Me!).

Powersurge > Powersurge 04/05/2014 at 16:12

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P.S. the 964 looks like an old frog with a sagging butt. Definitely deserves its title as the ugliest 911. I think part of the problem is that it already looked dated when it was released in 1989, hence the quite short production run it had (in 911 terms).

GLHNSLHT2 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:17

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And this is why when my father asked if he could trade his 1970 911T upgraded to S specs and a 2.7 thrown in all by Andial on a Panamera S my head just about exploded before I told him "Hell no". Nice thing about my parents being divorced and having my mom's name still on the title is I have "power of attorney" :)

mtdrift > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:18

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Stick with college - it did me a world of good. Including (fingers crossed), purchasing a used Porsche.

Also, I'd actually be pretty happy with a 2.7!

JayHova > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:20

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Every 911 is the best looking 911 ever....well, besides a few 70s/80s Targas, the 996 and the slantnoses.

And even these are not bad looking, just a bit quirky.

shirosake > CAcoalminer 04/05/2014 at 16:21

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Yeah... As much as I love 964's and 993's, 997.2's give me a massive boner. Im just waiting until they come down to under $60K and i'll be all over it. (60 is about as much as I can justifiably spend on a car. Even then its a lot of damn money)

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > mtdrift 04/05/2014 at 16:22

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You can have this one.

Not like I have any hopes of getting it any time soon.

http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/ctd/440526…

shirosake > Powersurge 04/05/2014 at 16:22

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The interiors are HORRIBLE and have aged poorly. I recently test drove an 03 and it felt old. Just old. It handled great, and you're right, exterior isn't horrid (especially with the 997 headlight mods), but that interior... its blubus and ugly.

shirosake > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:23

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Worst part of the 996 is the interior. HORRID. Thank god the 997 went back to the 'blocky' interior from the blubus uglyness of the 996's.

Powersurge > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:24

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They're not horrible, but I do tend to agree with the owners who didn't want their 911s looking like a car that cost half a much. I think that was the main issue.

shirosake > 86it 04/05/2014 at 16:24

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Yup. This was the first car that ever really gave me a boner.

Bronson Jonson > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:25

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I don't mind the 964. My Porsche mechanic (very opinionated) says it is the worst car Porsche ever made. He said that 964 owners have more problems than any other generation. This is obviously one man's opinion, and I wouldn't know. I am just glad I bought my 71' before the prices went crazy.

veblenesque > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:25

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I've owned an SC and have driven a 964. I wouldn't talk anyone out of a 964, but if you can afford it find a 993. Cost of ownership you say? It's been negative for almost all 993 owners over the last few years, especially if you have a widebody. Nothing like those haunches.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > shirosake 04/05/2014 at 16:26

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Yeah. That's the only place they went wrong IMO. In fact, it's soo hideous I won't even post a pic of it.

shirosake > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:29

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I say this with 100% truth - the interior is the reason I DID NOT buy a 996. I really do like how they drive, they are VERY VERY affordable and if you get a late model, reliable. But yeah. Its bad.

Brutal Calves > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:30

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Singer Porsche 911

Matt White > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:30

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Who hates the 964? It's freaking awesome.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > veblenesque 04/05/2014 at 16:32

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What's wrong with the widebody that's negatively affecting costs?

Powersurge > shirosake 04/05/2014 at 16:32

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911 interiors have never been anything special (the newest model excepted), but you are right. I especially hate the awful light grey interior color that takes on a tinge of pink/purple as it ages.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Matt White 04/05/2014 at 16:33

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EXACTLY! You'd be surprised how much it's hated or spoken poorly of...

Check out my 911 Poll.

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/polltime-911-e…

shirosake > Powersurge 04/05/2014 at 16:34

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For sure. That grey... I'd take the blue leather option over the purple option any day.

Powersurge > lonestranger 04/05/2014 at 16:35

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It has a saggy butt. The third picture here shows it really well. Just not attractive. And the upright headlights already looked completely dated even when this car came out in 1989.

veblenesque > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:38

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My car has appreciated $10,000 over the last two years and I've spent about $2,000 on it, so my cost of ownership has been -$8,000.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > veblenesque 04/05/2014 at 16:43

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Hmm... But whats wrong with the widebodies?

TeamProBono > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 16:43

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You know, I'm really not sure just looking at these photos. In the interests of justice, just drop it off outside my place and give me a, uh, year to really give a thorough opinion. Just give a little "beep" when you get here.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > TeamProBono 04/05/2014 at 16:44

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I wish I had one...

AdyLad > GreatPower 04/05/2014 at 16:45

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Love the car...hate the plate. Just why that plate?

Dean > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 17:00

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$20-30K older car? Poor college student? I'd set your sights a little more at the 5.0L Fox or something that will leave you some room when your dream of owning a 25 year old car collapses with your first four-figure repair bill.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 17:00

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I definitely can't hate on the 964. My grandfather has a black C4s and a silver C2 with a built motor. They are both a blast to drive, and I personally like the way they look. I definitely like the way my uncle's '74 Carrera RS looks and drives more than the 964, but they're still a blast.

I saw one of these today. Same color scheme but with black fuchs. Unfortunately I couldn't get my phone camera out fast enough so a GIS will have to do.

Dean > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 17:01

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Oh no, my dad made me buy a ST! =First world gearhead problems=

In all seriousness, daily driving a classic is difficult. Your dad is just looking out for you, and doesn't want to be driving you to work 3 months out of the year.

Dean Beyer > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 17:04

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I will gladly take ANY air-cooled 911 of any year.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Dean 04/05/2014 at 17:06

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Aww, but I don't want a Mustang(yet.).. :(

My ST is gonna have to hold me over for a good while, many mods will be done until that day I can get my own 911.

I meant that I was curious as to which 911s fall within that price range, I cannot afford one now, but one day I will!

Detroit Velvet Smooth > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 17:07

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ill take flak for this but I really like the new 911 esp in turbo guise

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Detroit Velvet Smooth 04/05/2014 at 17:08

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I don't see a problem with that. Is there a problem with that of which I'm not aware of?

Fauxe > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 17:17

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Taking the 964 to another level:

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Fauxe 04/05/2014 at 17:18

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I like everything but the headlights. Something seems "off" about them...

Reborn Pyrrhic > lonestranger 04/05/2014 at 17:20

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The 964 is my favorite 911. It combines the classic 911 lines with modern upgrades without looking wrong. I love it.

GreatPower > AdyLad 04/05/2014 at 17:25

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I'm not sure really. I don't know my euro plates. If it's German I guess that would be sort kewl though. If not...I dunno.

chuckoslovakia > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 17:27

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They drive very well on the track too!

Loping Camshaft > mtdrift 04/05/2014 at 17:31

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Soon it'll just be 912's and 996's for the common man...

Loping Camshaft > NoahthePorscheGuy 04/05/2014 at 17:34

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I like the looks of the older generations for sure, but the 964 is more masculine than the older ones. Then the 993's are too soft looking. Aesthetically, 964's are my favorite air-cooled 911's. Some of the best evidence is that is what Singer uses as a starter for their cars.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 17:48

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Truth be told, the 964 was close to extinction. Thank God an American sorted the Porsche boffins out!

Sharker > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 17:52

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I will have to say I agree.. Just finished washing it :)

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Sharker 04/05/2014 at 17:53

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Lucky....

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura 04/05/2014 at 17:58

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brell > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 17:59

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Is that the best looking 911 ever? No.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > brell 04/05/2014 at 18:00

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Didn't say it was. I said it was "one of the best"

brell > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 18:00

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Looks are so subjective. I'm sure there are people who think the 996 is the best looking.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > brell 04/05/2014 at 18:02

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And that's a good thing! To each their own, I just wrote this so people would stop condemning the 964 to the worst looking 911 ever; regardless of how subjective looks can be.

VicVinegar > 86it 04/05/2014 at 18:17

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Agree, 993 Turbo is one of the best. Ruf CTR2 might be better, but good luck seeing one in the wild. Not saying I don't like a 964, or even a wide body 996, but this is it right here.

TerraTech > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 18:19

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964 the ugly duckling?Everybody calling it so? I guess I missed that memo and everybody I know whos into cars also im suppose... The car is a freakin rock star of 911s especially with its unapologeticially vulgar wing in certain turbo versions and bad ass look. Like someone said in previous post, 996 is the only one that can be labeled as such.

50calibre > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 18:29

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He means the cost of ownership of the widebodies has been negative in the last few years.

As in, they have been appreciating in value and whatever you spend on maintenance in a year is more than made up for by the increase in value.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > 50calibre 04/05/2014 at 18:33

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Ah OK. Sorry for the misunderstanding

Schrodinger's Fat > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 04/05/2014 at 18:37

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How do people think this is the ugly duckling? That's the first model that comes to mind when I think "911".