A Friday tale of guns and protection

"505Turbeaux" (505turbeaux) 03/28/2014 at 16:54 • Filed to: None

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Jkm asked a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! yesterday, how do you protect your stuff. I replied about my Mossberg shotgun and Sig 226's, and how an intruder into my home while I was out almost caught a blast from said Mossberg when I beat the cops to my house. I figured I would elaborate a bit since A: I don't want you all to think I am some gun nut - and B: those of you who made very valid points about being in a greater danger while being armed vs. an armed intruder in an encounter should be heard too.

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First off, I moved to where I live because I used to carry for work when I lived in the midwest, and my hometown metro area is not the most pleasant either, so I wanted a nice safe place to have a family. I know plenty of people who have been shot, most have survived, most were unarmed at the time. I had had a Glock 17 and traded up to my 226 after I inherited my Uncle's service 226, then bought one for myself. When I moved to my current city of residence, I kept my pistols 2 states away in a locked gun safe, thinking I was done with that mess.

Fast forward some amount of years, I buy a big ancient farmhouse on the outskirts of the city in a very nice neighborhood, and have that family. At the time of this incident, I had my girlfriend, 2 year old daughter and greyhound dog, and a Mossberg 12 ga. I had bought to protect my flock of chickens from all types of predators that were in the 1mi deep woods behind the house.

I was out with some friends around 5 miles away with my Peugeot diesel, automatic wagon (slowest car in the world, just about), when I get a frantic call. There is a man that walked in the house and will not leave, in a snowstorm, with a backpack and no shirt on. He won't talk but won't leave either, and he was blocking the door out and the door to the rest of the house, where the gun is. Crazy eyes. I told her to hang up and call the cops (she should have done this first) and call me back. Jump in the Pug, blast through traffic to get home at somewhere between 80-85 MPH, black smoke all the way, somehow the head gasket held and the car stayed true to the road. No call back, no cops around. I pull in and run to the front door, my girlfriend is there (phew) and crying, but untouched, and was on the phone with the cops. My big 95 lb greyhound had come out and terrorized the guy (probably tried to lick him, but GOOD BOY regardless) and he bolted. Run in, grab the shotgun, tell her to lock the door and not open it for anyone until the cops came. Go back out and follow footprints to the back yard. There was this motherfucker who had intruded into my house, with my loved ones these who were terrified and would be for some time to come. I shout for him to lay down on the ground or I was going to shoot. He goes for his backpack, pulls out a knife and bolts back to the front of the house. Still no cops, SHIT. I follow with the gun, cops get there. Being the neighborhood it is I almost get shot when I come around with the shotty. Dude ran off down the street. As I am laying in the snow face down trying to tell the cops this was my property my girl comes out and vouches for me. Tell them the details. Down the street there is an almost perpetual speed trap (different town, we lives on the border) where this dude with no shirt on runs by in the snow. Being diligent cops they grab him and my town police get the word. Find 8 knives in the backpack of varying styles. Who the hell knew what he had in mind, and he was strung out on something probably I have never even done. He got a year in jail, was out in 6 months.

Soooo, after that I pulled the pistols out of storage, cleaned them, got my girl some lessons, she ended up being a pretty natural shot. It helped her heal knowing there was one here, one there, and one by the back door for protection for us or poultry. But I almost ate it that night, or I was damn close to shooting someone I didn't know and going away for that. No "castle" law up here. If it wasn't for my terrifying greyhound who in the hell knows what would have happened.

In closing, guns have a place, and it can be many. If it helps you sleep at night, that is one place. If it makes you feel secure in your domicile, so be it. Just know how to use them, keep them away from the kiddos, like really far away, and have respect.

philipilihp > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 16:56

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I have a baseball bat under the bed. That works for me. It's called the Black Maxx, so it's definitely potent!

505Turbeaux > philipilihp 03/28/2014 at 16:57

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I aint messing with Black Maxx, because 2 XX

philipilihp > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 17:02

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That's what I'm hoping any potential deviants say too!

Audi-os, amigos > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 17:02

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Ahhhh, shit. People are scary.

Baller shit protecting your family though. Did your duty.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 17:09

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I've been meaning to buy some bear spray for home protection.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 17:11

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I'm leaning toward getting a carry gun some time this year - not to carry much around here, because nigh-nonexistent violent crime rate, but it helps to have an arm you're practiced in - *yours* - and there are enough places with reciprocity where I certainly wouldn't mind having it. Single-stack 1911, probably, because you can't beat the classics and my fat-palmed short-fingered hands can't stand most subcompacts.

Racescort666 > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 17:11

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Holy fuck that's terrifying.

Icemanmaybeirunoutofthetalents > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 17:12

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Scary shit. There are a lot of troubled and sick folks out there.

Looks like you're used to being around a gun/having one around. For most people it isn't a fact though. So before getting one/while getting one, making sure you train yourself to use it and think through how you would react to various situations and prepare yourself physically, mentally and legally is prime isn't it. I hope anyone who goes the gun route does the due diligence needed for having this powerful at close reach. I like guns but they are effective tools only in the hands of someone who knows how to use them correctly. Sadly we end up hearing about too many who aren't, like that fellow who let his friends use his unloaded gun and then left it loaded on the kitchen table and his gf shot herself thinking it wasn't.

505Turbeaux > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 03/28/2014 at 17:15

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haha good balance there

505Turbeaux > Icemanmaybeirunoutofthetalents 03/28/2014 at 17:15

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my thoughts exactly

505Turbeaux > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 03/28/2014 at 17:16

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that is a great gun! I used to just like going to the range and shooting there. It is cathartic.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 17:17

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I have an old 20 gauge in the house, but it's locked up well enough (and the ammo is stored separately) that'd it take some time to get functional. With a 7, 5 and 1 year old in the house, you can't be too cautious.

505Turbeaux > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 03/28/2014 at 17:19

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yeah I have a 2 and a 4 year old around now, man I know

HeycanIgetaride > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 17:19

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Wow, that's intense. Thanks for filling in the details of that story.

I was raised by a couple of peaceniks who wouldn't even let me play with toy guns or play violent games as a kid, and for years and years never saw the need for a firearm, for home defense of otherwise (nothing against hunting with one, just another thing I wasn't allowed to do so don't care about). I still highly doubt I will even need one for that purpose, but after I read "The Great Deluge" about New Orleans in the days after Katrina, I realized that even if you live in the middle of downtown of a major American city, as I do, nothing is out of the question. I just feel better knowing it is there. My wife hates it, and my friends all think I am either crazy or deluded, but the thought of waiting for police in a situation like yours where seconds literally count, just doesn't work for me. Hard to know if I could go all Steven Seagal in a second like you did, and I hope I never have to find out, but stories like yours make me feel like a little more rational and a little less like a nut. Thanks for sharing it.

505Turbeaux > HeycanIgetaride 03/28/2014 at 17:20

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no problem, I felt like I shouldnt leave that story open ended!

jariten1781 > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 17:29

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My family's farm in the Ozarks got broken into all the time. You've got to be on the lookout for yourself when your neighbors aren't close and the cops are further. Good on ya.

Now I live in a mid-income suburb. House is better lit than all the neighbors, with cameras, and a loud dog...If some guy decides to pick mine out of all the easier pickins you already know he's nuts. I've got a .357 l-frame and a Mossberg 500 if it comes to that and we can't get out.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 17:55

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A buddy got a Beretta for carry, and subsequently got a Glock, because the Beretta wasn't really a carry gun (SURPRISE). Beretta: I can see why people like it, but it's not to my taste and due to the way it fires, my instinctual grip use wrecks my accuracy. If I have to think about how to fire it right, it's not a good carry gun for me. Glock subcompact: fires well, but is just the wrong size/fit unless I second-finger trigger it, and ain't nobody got time for that. 1911 single-stack (same guy's, RIA): just right.

Not sure if going to customize an RIA (FWIW, I like the slabby walnut chunks and parkerized finish) or get an STI - as they're supposed to be excellent for the money.

Paul, Man of Mustangs > HeycanIgetaride 03/28/2014 at 18:08

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Having told someone that I liked having a gun to protect myself, my family, and my friends, I was told I was "fucking insane." I know what I need to do to protect myself and that which I care about, and I won't be swayed by those that are simply paranoid. Good on you for sticking by what you know to be right.

Many people simply react to threats like Turbeaux did, running on adrenaline until the situation is over, then they are hit by the reality of the situation. I feel that I would fall into that category, the "fighter" rather than the "fleer," because of how I've reacted to a friend trying to scare me. You just have to be sure that you can act while under pressure, so target shooting semi-frequently is important. You don't want to have any stray shots, after all.

SteyrTMP > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 18:16

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I'll comment more in this when I get home, but I wanted to get a few words in before this scrolls down to the oblivion left only for the night crew.

First of, good for you. You handled it pretty well, although chasing him may or may not have been the best option, but everything is always hindsight. Personally, I would have made sure my wife was armed and the kids secure before considering inspecting my property. Also, as you learned, when your armed at the door, you have a much better chance of bit getting shot by the cops, although with today's nut job cos as well, nine can be sure if anything.

Back to the discussion, those that flew me should know by now that I love weapons as much as I love cars, and it shows. I have all sorts of stuff, from a few pistols, to an short barreled AUG, to a registered M16. However, when it comes to home defense, all of that remains in the safe in my shop downstairs. The only weapon secured upstairs is an AMT Javelina, a 10mm, 7" barreled, 1911 longslide. Not only is it fearsome in appearance, but a 180 grain Winchester Silvertip traveling around 1300fps will stop a PCP crazed, 300lb thug, and anything below that.

Eventually, I will finish working on the 10ga SxS (waiting for ATF approval to trim it down to an OAL of maybe 18"), at which point, it will share a safe upstairs as well. However, I would highly recommend a Remington 870 with an 18" barrel for anyone as a basic home defense weapon. A pistol requires a moderate skill to hit a moving object, and with most home breakins occurring at night, low visibility makes it even harder. Most gunfight occur at a range of five feet, and the chances of hitting anything lower exponentially as the distance grows. A shotgun does not penetrate walls, spreads with a shorter barrel and medium shot, doesn't require a lot of accuracy and is easy for one to train a significant other how to use.

Ive been asked why I wouldnt use one of.theof the "cooler" weapons as a home defense weapon. Simple. Not only do you have to expect for the police to take a weapon used during a shooting, justified or not, and it's going to be hard to get back, but in court, what's going to be more sympathetic to a jury if it comes to it, "I shot him twice with my 870 and pissed myself", or "eh, I put 15 rounds center mass with my select-fire M16"?

Always remember. If you have a weapon in your hand, you had better be ready to kill someone with it. I've heard to many people say, "well, I'll just shoot him in the leg to stop him". Stupid. That's asking for a lawsuit, and with the current justice system, you're going to lose. If it comes to that point, and your life is in true danger, you are in your home, and your only choice is to defend yourself, shoot to kill. Don't stop shooting until the threat is no longer a threat. And expect to go to court, either it was justifiable or not. True, in rural areas, or out west/south west, you may be ok, but with today's messed up society, defending yourself will change your life forever, no matter what the outcome, and I'm not referring emotionally.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 18:21

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Scary story, thanks for sharing. A few years ago I got my CPL and carry most days. Mostly because I can more than anything and it has become habit.

Even if you don't get a CPL it would be worth looking into an NRA home defense class. There is a lot of good info to be had and they would probably cover local laws. I definitely learned a lot of stuff and it would have been worth it even if I didn't carry. Plus in my state with a CPL you don't need to get a permit to purchase a pistol like you would otherwise. That is actually the reason I got the CPL in the first place.

LSXforYourSuperCar > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 18:29

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I'm not trying to disrespect your views on gun ownership, but....

Every year in the U.S. around 15,000 people are murdered and around 30,000 people die in road accidents. Do you and your family wear helmets while driving or riding in a car? It's seems to me every dollar spent on driver/passenger safety would be twice as effective as a dollar spent on guns.

Really, in all likelihood, very few of us are going to die in a car accident and even fewer of us are going to be victims of violent crime. It's cool to own a device that can instantly kill a person from a distance/it's uncool to wear a helmet that is twice as likely to save your life. Thank goodness the 300,000,000 of us who live in the United States, don't really need to worry.

McLarry > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 18:30

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That's nuts...glad everything turned out ok. Key to remember that the cops have no idea who you are, so they will assume you are the aggressor unless it's patently obvious otherwise. Glad they nabbed the guy...that all just sounds so surreal.

wiffleballtony > SteyrTMP 03/28/2014 at 18:30

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Not to nitpick but the blanket statement that shotguns dont go through walls is misleading. Triple ought buck will go through drywall no problem. As will other loads as well.

505Turbeaux > SteyrTMP 03/28/2014 at 18:31

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Well said. Hindsight I know it wasnt the best choice to go after him, but that last choice not to shoot I think was the best choice of the situation. Just thinking back on it my blood still boils at the thought of what may have been if I hadn't gotten there or he executed whatever plan he had when entering my domicile. Water under the bridge, but now she is prepared should something similar happen.

wiffleballtony > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 18:39

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I come from the SF Bay area in CA. Guns are taboo. After moving to America, specifically Arizona I was able to utilize my second amendment rights. I understand that there are many who choose not too, which is their right as well. My carry is a 1911 commander style. My home defense weapon is an AR15. The choice of defensive weapons is purely down to the familiarity of the user, followed by terminal ballistics and overpenentration.

As for the original poster of the article. You really shouldn't have chased after the perpetrator. In most states that is a recipe for a lawsuit, even in castle states. At least it turned out well in the end.

HeycanIgetaride > Paul, Man of Mustangs 03/28/2014 at 18:40

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That is a very good point to make, and one I hadn't really thought about before even though it's as plain as day now. I should have made the connection with what I tell my kids about fire and tornado drills helping you be prepared for it just in case. I should go to the range more, but I am surprised at how expensive it is. I need a piece of land in the country or something.

SteyrTMP > wiffleballtony 03/28/2014 at 18:44

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Compared to 5.56, 7.62, or even 10mm, it has a far lower chance with medium shot, as I referred to earlier. Yes, it's not the most accurate phrase, but at work, I can't really use footnotes when discussing the differences between chokes, high, mid and low brass, or which shut world be best for home defense.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > SteyrTMP 03/28/2014 at 18:48

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That AUG is more badass than the f/a m16. Is dat some suppressor?

desertdog5051 > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 18:52

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Your last paragraph, especially last sentence tells all you need to know.

SteyrTMP > vdub_nut: scooter snob 03/28/2014 at 18:55

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Yeah, a 13.5 bark with s cheap ass can.

Paul, Man of Mustangs > HeycanIgetaride 03/28/2014 at 19:04

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Where I am, I find disused gravel pits and logged clearings. Places like that are pretty common in Washington state, but elsewhere, you'd end up on someone else's property who probably would mind you being there.

wiffleballtony > SteyrTMP 03/28/2014 at 19:22

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I've heard JHP 5.56 is preferable in this exact environment. But this can be argued ad nauseum.

SteyrTMP > wiffleballtony 03/28/2014 at 19:44

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Personally, I'd prefer Glaser bluetip frangible round in any caliber, which are designed for this exact purpose. Silvertips are pretty good, though.

wiffleballtony > SteyrTMP 03/28/2014 at 19:49

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I've got some Hornady TAP for most of my guns.

SteyrTMP > SteyrTMP 03/28/2014 at 19:54

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It totally slipped my mind...I'd like to try the new G2 R.I.P. round. That might be another option for urban combat.

SteyrTMP > wiffleballtony 03/28/2014 at 20:00

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For purchased ammo, I have Winchester Silvertips for 10mm, SS109 for 5.56, assorted .22 Mag.
Reloaded, I use Remington Golden Sabre for the 10mm, and Sierra Game King or Match King for the .300WM.

jkm7680 > 505Turbeaux 03/28/2014 at 20:16

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Good words! Completely agree that if a gun helps you sleep at night, then keep one. I'm not a gun-nut by any means, but they are just a nice thing to have around. In a gun safe of course.

Clown Shoe Pilot > SteyrTMP 03/28/2014 at 20:32

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c'mon man, you know better. we don't shoot to kill, we shoot to stop. it happens to be the case that shooting to stop involves putting rounds on center mass where there's a better chance they'll be fatal, but that's a byproduct of shooting to stop, not a goal of shooting to kill.

(btw - we've actually known each other online for something like 15 years. I was a BCR (haven't been much lately), "Rodeo" on IRC back in the day and buddies w/ Wayne L. Burnham. Now I work down the street from "Ascender" from the IRC days)

SteyrTMP > Clown Shoe Pilot 03/28/2014 at 20:48

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Hell yeah. Where about is that? I talked to Wayne a few months ago, I haven't been in Subguns a lot, was in a bit to make sure Destiny got something she needed, but that's about it unless I need info. Been to busy to keep up here. Let alone other forums as well.

I'm still in Ohio, although the mohawk have way to simply a shaved head. Oh well.

Clown Shoe Pilot > SteyrTMP 03/28/2014 at 20:58

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I'm in Austin now. I work at the race track and asc works down the street at the Texas Dept of Parks and Wildlife. We occasionally figure out how to have lunch together, but the last time I saw him was a few days before xmas. We both took off work early to go to the welding supply store and I bumped into him there.

SteyrTMP > Clown Shoe Pilot 03/28/2014 at 22:22

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Have you seen Wayne? My little sister moved to Texas after she got married. I've thought about it.I need to leave Ohio.

SteyrTMP > vdub_nut: scooter snob 03/29/2014 at 02:13

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Forget the first response from my retarded phone. Yeah, it's a 13.5" barrel with a cheap ass can.

SteyrTMP > 505Turbeaux 03/29/2014 at 02:20

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Here's mine.

SamfaKenessal > 505Turbeaux 03/30/2014 at 12:23

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Pics or it didn't happen.

RobBobJoe > SteyrTMP 04/01/2014 at 02:57

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Lets be real, shotguns easily penetrate interior walls, which, if you have a family, they may be on the other side of.

RobBobJoe > SteyrTMP 04/01/2014 at 02:58

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Shotguns easily penetrate the hollow drywall interior walls on most houses.

SteyrTMP > RobBobJoe 04/01/2014 at 12:52

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That simply reinforced what I said. I'd use a short-barreled 10-ga, with a light bird load and a spreader, over any FMJ or JHP pistol rounds. They should have compared a 9mm, 10mm, .40, .45, .223 alongside the shot loads. Every round would bury itself in that plywood/backstop, whereas a lighter shot load loses a lot of it's velocity after the first wall contact. If I had to get hit with a stray shot (obviously I'd rather not), I'd rather get hit with a #7-8 bird load, than a 10mm Silvertip or G2 RIP. I'd have a far higher chance of survival.

That's completely ignoring the fact that the spread of a shotgun still gives an inexperienced shooter a better chance of impact than a pistol in home defense.

Ash78, voting early and often > 505Turbeaux 12/16/2015 at 09:12

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I just came across your story in my random search for gun stuff. Good job getting home and I’m glad the situation ended well. I honestly don’t know if I would have let the guy pull a knife like that...but my life would never be the same if I had killed him. Being outside of your house, and without imminent danger to you, I think you made the right choice.

I’m about to buy a do-it-all gun (Probably a Glock 19 for carry and home protection) and I will only consider it if I keep it locked inside a quick-access case. a 4-5 digit push-button code and they pop right open. That way, you can keep it loaded and chambered in the house with kids. Of course, the kids still have to be trained to be terrified of guns just in case, but it’s a nice level of deterrent against accidents.