Why Bad Cars Happen To Good People

"Tom McParland" (tommcparland) 03/25/2014 at 10:03 • Filed to: car buying, articles

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At least once a day, I see someone cruising around and I think, "Why did you buy that? You could have done so much better." Now I'm not talking about beige boxes like the Civic and Corolla. I don't think those are poor purchases; those cars make perfectly fine transportation modules for the majority of car buyers. And I'm not talking about people driving cheap beaters either. If you only have a few grand in your pocket and need a car ASAP, I understand grabbing the first thing that you can find that looks clean. I'm talking about new or relatively new vehicle purchases where the budget has allowed for plenty of good alternatives. I came up with some theories on how sub-par cars end up with their owners, usually these phenomena don't happen in isolation but rather in some combination.

1. Point and shoot buyers-

Believe it or not some people have the following process when buying a car:

- I need a car

(Goes to local car dealer)

Hey there is a car that looks good.

I can afford this car

(Purchases car)

I have a friend with a Jeep Patriot, she is rather proud of her Patriot as it is the first car she bought new. I suspect she used the above methodology for her purchase. She is always talking about weird noises and rattles even though it is only a few years old. Despite this she is determined to "keep it forever;" I have my doubts on how long that Jeep will last. I guess the upside is with 2wd (who buy's a Jeep with 2wd?), manual windows and door locks, the lack of features will limit the hassles down the road.

2. Discounts, lot's of them-

Cash on the hood is a powerful motivator. If the Consumer Reports top recommended pick costs 20k and the brand X car in the same class costs, 19k but is now discounted to 15k, chances are average Joe car-buyer is going to get the cheaper car. I see a woman in my town quite frequently driving a Chevy Aveo. What I like about this woman is she is not shy about taking that Aveo to about 8/10ths around every turn. But I imagine the only reason she purchased the sad Chevrolet is because it was dirt cheap. Either that or she saw the Aveo on the lot and determined that it must die a hoonful death. If the latter she is my hero.

3. Ignorance is bliss-

These buyers come in two versions. The first are people who do not cross-shop, do not consult Consumer Reports, and rarely will go to a manufacturer's website to configure a vehicle. Dealerships love these people. While they are getting rarer they still exist, which is probably the reason Mitsubishi hasn't gone bankrupt yet. Most of them are either first time car buyers, or they are people who have been driving around in a total crap-box for at least 5 years so any new car is going to seem like a wonder-machine compared to what they have.

The second version are people who see something on the road, get fixated on that car and are totally unaware of what else they could have for the same money. Recently, I had a former client ask me to find an Altima coupe for his son. I asked him, "Why does he want the Altima coupe?" He replied, "He wants a two door and thinks it is cool." I promptly suggested they visit their local Honda dealer and take a look at the Accord coupe. His response was, "Honda makes an Accord coupe?" I also mentioned that if his son wants a a "cool" sports car for the same money there is the the Scion FR-S (they like Toyotas so I didn't bother with the Subaru). They reported back that the FR-S was too small but the Accord coupe was awesome.

As Jalops we have a duty to not let bad cars happen to good people. Most of us do a good job of keeping our ears pealed to conversations regarding car-buying. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , the more important job is to make sure our friends don't drive home in a 4cyl Avenger.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

How successful have you been at talking someone out of a bad car purchase?

My name is Tom and I run !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! I am a professional car-buying consultant, which means people pay me to help them select the right car (NO YOU CAN'T HAVE A PRIUS) and negotiate with the dealerships to get them the best price. If you have any other questions or suggestions for future posts about the car-buying process please let me know. You can find some of my other car-buying articles !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

You can also find me !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Nibbles > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:09

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I made a bad car purchase and I live with it every day. Purchased a 2007 Ford Focus. We were originally in a Mustang GT, but couldn't get financing straight on it. They tried to get us in a Mustang V6, but it was the shitty 210 hp one and the wife doesn't like the S197 styling. We were on our last day of "we need a second car because two jobs" and the Focus had just rolled in. I remembered what good times I had with my 2000 5MT ZX3, and somehow, for some reason, talked the wife into this shitbox. I didn't pay enough attention to note it is an E-code "California emissions" model putting out somewhere around 35 hp. Through an automatic. Now I drive that damned thing every day whilst the wife hoons the manual V8 Dakota.

Never buy on a whim

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:11

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A friend's girlfriend was looking for a used car with some money she's been saving. She's all proud because she's about to buy a used mini cooper (non-S) automatic with a bunch of electrics on it. She comes up to me "Well one of the windows doesn't go down smoothly and the radio is a bit weird but it's perfect!" I offered to take a look. It turns out that a 150k mile cooper is NOT perfect for her. At all. At least, not that one. Having had a sit down with her about why it was a bad idea, she ended up in a ford focus hatch with about 80k and in good shape overall. No electrical faults at least.

Tom McParland > Nibbles 03/25/2014 at 10:12

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You know I never considered the tried to by X car but didn't pan out so I ended up with Y. Good example.

CalzoneGolem > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:12

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No one listens to my car advice except my wife. That's why we have a Soul instead of a Caliber.

Hooker > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:12

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I have been helping a friend of mine find the perfect car. I have been conversing with various dealer personnel and giving her facts to help her figure out what will be best. She calls me the other day and says that she just bought a super low mileage Dodge Caliber. Because it was cute. This was after over a week of fact finding, negotiating, and advice to the contrary of bad cars. I just shook my head. I told her next time she wants to buy a car, please don't ask for my help, she doesn't listen anyway.

Tom McParland > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/25/2014 at 10:13

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Well done Mr. Sauce

oldirtybootz > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:13

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I was just moving cars around the lot to make some room and I got into a 2007ish Sebring soft top and instantly thought to myself, "who the fuck buys one of these??" I can't imagine spending my money on something like that and owning a convertible isn't worth putting up with the MegaBlocks-grade plastics or garbage 2.7L V6.

I will say that my first new car purchase sort of fell into the "I just need a car" category. My mother was working at a Ford dealer at the time so they got me a deal on a 2010 Focus sedan with an automatic. Not a terrible car, but not terribly exciting either.

MyCarDrivesMe > oldirtybootz 03/25/2014 at 10:19

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who the fuck buys one of these

Rental Car agencies

Nibbles > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:19

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Funny thing is that we were given the choice (by this specific dealer) of this Focus or a 2009 Hyundai Sonata V6 Limited for the same price. I should'a got the Sonata

offroadkarter > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:21

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I do not believe in CR at all. When you rate a car as unreliable because you can't work the sat nav system, all your credibility goes RIGHT out the window.

Chris Clarke > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:23

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Nobody takes my car advice. I always suggest a car that's a little too impractical, maybe over powered, gas-hog, maintenance nightmare, uncomfortable, "ugly". But sometimes the "best" cars are not on the top of Consumer Reports' lists.

oldirtybootz > MyCarDrivesMe 03/25/2014 at 10:24

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Indeed. Not this one, though in all likelihood it was an ex-rental.

PelicanHazard > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:24

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Some friends of mine got jobs and instantly wanted a new car to replace their '97 Impala that was quickly going south. Problem is their jobs were part-time customer support for her and a totally commission-based job selling health insurance for him. Not exactly good conditions for a new car. They wanted a brand new Impala, which is not a bad car, but they could never have afforded it. After a frank discussion about the costs they weren't expecting (higher insurance for a car bought on loan, gas because they'll want to drive everywhere in the new car, maintenance they should do instead of letting it go like their old car) I managed to talk them out of stretching their theoretical budget (again, he's commission-paid) and down to compacts and subcompacts with an eye towards the used market. Like a 2011 Fiesta. They wound up buying a new '13 Mazda3 with a fair amount of cash on the hood and instantly hit some budget problems because he wasn't making as much commission as they thought he would.

All is still good, they're still making payments, and got a pretty good car out of it.

CalzoneGolem > Hooker 03/25/2014 at 10:25

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This is why I suggest a Prius to everyone that asks me advice.

Sn210 > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:29

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I agree. I believe a large number of people treat cars as appliances and buy what ever is on sale at the time. It's pretty amazing, considering cars are some of the most expensive purchases you'll make in your life, second to a house.

Agrajag > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:30

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I've never been successful at it.

I've found the noises that they point and shoot type buyers hear, are often just normal functions of the car.
Example from a co-worker, after buying a few year old Impala(his first car) from a local used lot:
me: "You like your new car?"

him: "Yeah, but I have to bring it back to them."

m: "Why is that?"

h: "Whenever you go up a steep hill it kind of lurches and then the engine gets louder."

m: ...................

h: (internal monologue) meow mix song

m: "It's downshifting. Have you never floored the car?"

jariten1781 > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:31

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When I was negotiating for my latest purchase during one of the lulls where the salesman was 'talking to his manager' a young 20 something couple sat down in the cube next to me.

The overheard conversation went something like this:

Salesperson: "What are you looking for today?"

Husband: "Well, we want something with four doors that gets good gas mileage, looks good, has a nice interior, and has leather if we can afford it"

S: "How much are you looking to spend?"

H: "We can't afford more than XXX per month. I'd also just like to use the trade-in for the down payment and we're not interested in leasing."

S: "Oh we can help you with that. When I show the car that you'll love, are you ready to purchase today?"

H: "Yeah, we're really interested in getting into a car today"

S: "Come with me."

I was totally aghast. I had no idea that those kind of people existed anymore. I wanted to go shake them or find an opportunity to chat with them alone for a bit, but it was not to be. I'm sure the saleman got a nice commission and the folks got a 72 month high interest rate loan.

Seriously, don't just walk into a dealership, describe a generic nice car, dangle money in their face and expect not to end up significantly overpaying for the car that's been in inventory the longest.

Hooker > CalzoneGolem 03/25/2014 at 10:41

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The only problem is that if even one of those people then goes and buys one, you are killing enthusiasts. For every Prius sold, one enthusiast will never be born.

Jonathon Klein > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:43

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"How successful have you been at talking someone out of a bad car purchase?"

-Not, nobody really cares what you think even if your a car person, they will still buy shit.

Burrito de EJ25 > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:44

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My parents have a neighbor that bought 2 Aveos. One blue and one red. We were all stunned.

CalzoneGolem > Hooker 03/25/2014 at 10:45

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Bullshit. How many of us had parents hauling us around in boringmobiles? Not me. My mom drove Z28s until she couldn't afford insure them.

noise > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:49

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Alright Mr Tom:

I drive a shitty (really shitty) 06 focus with orange wheels that goes BEEP BEEP when I back up. I bought it in a panic off a man on a farm because i was moving 7 hours away and my CRV's transmission had recently spewed itslef all over the road in Amherst. The focus was a fleet car, its power steering has never worked (even after a grand of fixing shit) its the sub-base model only fleets can get, so its extra shitty, and i'm in the camp of any modern car feels like a goddamn spaceship.

I'm gonna replace this bastard soon, how do i not get blinded by non shitty modern cars? If the answer is buy an Aurora 3 model years older or a Riviera of the same vintage then i'm all ears, but that little voice in the back of my head that ruins fun keeps telling me those might not be very good DDs...

noise > Hooker 03/25/2014 at 10:51

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whaaat, nothing breeds jalops like a childhood stuck in the back of a terrible car

it makes us into weird shit like compact american cars from the 50s or anemic swedish sports cars from the 60s and 70s

kind of like how overly conservative households breed sex deviants

Deal Killer - Powered by Focus > Nibbles 03/25/2014 at 10:57

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Owns a 2006 Focus ZX-3, and it too is a shit box.

Stef Schrader > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 10:58

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{ shakes fist }

Hey, I <3 the Lulzcer! That one's actually quite good.

That being said, it was purchased over the course of one weekend in Waco, and it was the best thing available in that area (we went pretty much everywhere, arrgh) on that weekend when my parents went "we're gonna pay cash for a new car this time because yours* sucks." Drove well, fit the price my parents were willing to fork out, came with the [minimal but useful; I hate sunroofs and nav screens but also hate drum brakes] options I wanted, and we could drive it off the lot that day and hope the dealer who got stuck with the Failtima would light it on fire so it couldn't cause anyone else any misery and woe.

*"yours" was referring to the Failtima; another "we're gonna buy a replacement car in one weekend" purchase. Yeeeeeah, I'm probably not going to buy cars like that on my own. Ever.

case-sensitive > Deal Killer - Powered by Focus 03/25/2014 at 11:00

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I own a 2006 ZXW and it is also shit. At least it has a manual gearbox and holds a ton of stuff. It also has heated leather seats. That's all the good I can say about it.

RazoE > Burrito de EJ25 03/25/2014 at 11:02

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Why?

Nibbles > Deal Killer - Powered by Focus 03/25/2014 at 11:02

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I liked my 2000 ZX3. Granted it was a manual Zetec, but for a car with 180k hard miles that thing performed like a small, blue champ.

Brewman15 > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 11:08

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Unfortunately, my sister and dad are #3, and they went car shopping without me.

My sister's old Civic was getting pretty tired, so she and my dad went car shopping. They went to one Honda dealer. Then, they went to another Honda dealer, and she came with an '11 Civic.

Now, it's not a bad car, but in my opinion used Hondas values are way too expensive. So, for her budget she could have had a brand new Fit, Impreza, Fiesta, Focus, Mazda 3, or several other cars. I was pushing hard for the Impreza because she parks on the street in downtown Chicago, which is not really known for clearing snow...ever. She may have ended up in the Civic anyway if she looked at other cars, but I couldn't even convince them to go LOOK AT other vehicles.

Burrito de EJ25 > RazoE 03/25/2014 at 11:09

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Rebates, I imagine. Those damn rebates.

Tom McParland > noise 03/25/2014 at 11:13

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Depends on your budget. What kind of numbers are we talking?

Hooker > noise 03/25/2014 at 11:30

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That logic is actually pretty sound. Never thought of it that way. I was forced into the back of a Corolla most of my early years so I guess that makes sense.

noise > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 11:31

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HA ha... ha

Budget...

Well I was paying 900 a month for rent and getting by just fine, then the Mrs moved in so i'm now only spending 450

So i've got 450 a month of extra cash I could put into a car payment more or less, though she hasnt found work yet so I obviously wouldnt get anything till that was cemented, but yeah pretty much that. I make ~30k a year

I've got gorgeous ass credit but i'd probably get a loan through my credit union rather than finance with a dealer

Tom McParland > noise 03/25/2014 at 11:37

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So we are looking at about 25 grand give or take. Plenty of good cars can be had for that amount of money. Quick pick would be the new Accord Sport sedan, especially nice with the 6MT. MSRP is about 24,500 I've seen new ones on sale for 22k.

noise > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 11:54

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hmm on a 5 year loan....

never had a car for 5 years before

And I have to say, its not very jalop of me, but my whole experience with my CRV's tranny has kind of killed honda for me

But thanks for putting expensive new car ideas in my head! I still want an 03 oldsmobile though... for reasons

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 11:55

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I feel like I fall in to some weird form of Type 3.b - "get fixated on a car, must have one!"

- Started craving an E30 around age 20 (this is biologically normal, right?) - couldn't find one, put a WTB ad out on Craigslist - some guy replied saying he had one, test drove it, looked really clean - bought it. At 280k miles the engine developed a rod knock, so I just replaced it with a lower mileage one I got for a couple of hundred bucks. All in all, very clean E30 inside and out and has been good to me.

- Age 25, have been craving an S2000 for a while - day after I broke up with my college girlfriend I see my dream combination at a dealership ('03, GP White over tan, low miles) - test drive, negotiate, bought it the next day.

- Age 28, S2000 is fun but really annoying to commute with and need something a BIT more practical, and damn those Subaru wagons look awesome...start trolling CL for Legacy GTs, a week or two later find an 05 with manual transmission and a few minor tasteful mods - went by, took a look, was hooked - traded the S2000 in for it 3 days later. Immediately proceeded to do a 3000 mile roadtrip all the way up the west coast and back down the day after I bought it. Was AWESOME (except for a flat tire in the middle of nowhere in Oregon on the 4th of July). Still have it 2 years later...cravings have been light for a while, mostly due to financial constraints. Probably for the best!

I suppose getting fixated and jumping on a car is not so bad if you're a jalop and know what you're doing for the most part - all these cars were great deals. Far shittier E30s seem to go for 3x what I paid for mine, so even given the engine swap and other repairs I'm still well ahead on it. The S2000 I essentially did a straight trade for the LGT for $2k less than I bought it for....30k miles and 3 years later, not bad I'd say. LGT yet to be determined, but has been completely reliable and the market seems pretty steady so I'm not worried yet.

NaturallyAspirated > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 12:03

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The "Tried to buy X but ended up with Y" was how my co-worker ended up with his Versa. The local dealers for Honda and Hyundai were extremely unhelpful and wouldn't go out of their way to find him a high-specc'd manual version of their low-end hatchbacks. The Nissan dealer bent over backwards to get what is basically a Versa SL with a manual (which technically isn't a thing). My co-worker figured that since his previous car, a mid-90's Nissan "Pickup" lasted as long as it had, he'd be fine with a new Nissan. Three years later, and he's already talking about trading it in as soon as it's paid off.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 12:41

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Unfortunately some people CHOOSE to live with bad cars. There's a family down my road that has three Prii and nothing else. I die a bit inside every time I drive past their house.

Tom McParland > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 03/25/2014 at 12:43

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The Pruii are not "terrible" cars in a traditional sense...they are just boring as hell. I prefer to call them transportation modules.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 12:48

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Its not bad that they have Prii, it's that they have three of them and NOTHING ELSE! Spaghetti and meatballs is awesome but you wouldn't want it as every single meal for the next five or so years, would you?

Tom McParland > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 03/25/2014 at 12:49

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You have a point there.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 12:55

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Variety is the spice of life, Tom.

Andrew Seifert > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 14:06

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Yeah they're very reliable. Now a Dodge Caliber, on the other hand...

MadMike > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 16:10

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A co-worker of mine was on the prowl for a good used car for his daughter, not looking to spend more than $2,000 to $3,000 on it. He said it absolutely had to have all-wheel drive since he lives up in the mountains where occasionally it will snow heavily, MAYBE once a year at that. He was dead set on some type of Suzuki since he has owned a Suzuki sidekick since the thing was nearly brand new and had very few problems with the vehicle over it's life. While I have nothing against Suzukis I recommended against them due to the fact that they had pulled out of the us market, informing him that maintenance costs were probably going to increase on them in the future. I in turn suggested that he look into something like an old 4WD civic or Tercel wagon, preferably with a manual transmission to make a daughter a better driver. I told him if he couldn't find one of those then he should look for a good used 90's era Impreza. While he would have probably paid a little more than he budgeted for either example, I'm sure it would have been worth it compared to where he stands now. He ended up spending $2,500 on a Suzuki Areo with well over 100,000 miles on it, maybe even 150,00 IIRC. Along with the high mileage the car also came with bad front wheel bearings, completely worn out brakes at all four corners, ridiculous amounts of underbody rust and corrosion, and a bad rear alignment which apparently is not fixable without the purchase of a camber adjustment kit; the cars came from the factory without rear alignment adjustability. We figured out that once he has had the vehicle aligned and replaced the alignment worn tires he will be over $5,000 into this vehicle, and this is with having to source used parts for some of the maintenance because new parts were astronomically priced.

Fuel_of_Satan > Tom McParland 03/25/2014 at 18:13

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I've been very unsuccessful. But the only good people with poor judgment of cars I know is my mother.

I gave up when she came home with an Audi A4, first gen B5. Before you VW-heads get defensive, FWD, 1.6 manual, cloth interior, non-A/C. Not even electric friggin windows or mirrors! It barely had features and none of them were redeeming.

For the same price she could've had a loaded Skoda, which is all the rage on Jalopnik these days, with a half decent diesel or at least something you don't have to drive flat out to keep up with traffic and doesn't scream at 3500 rpm doing 50mph.

Front suspension rattling and squeaking, I think it was something like 6 bushings on each side, every spring as the snow melted, like clockwork, for three years straight before she conceded that its a POS and got rid. I even specifically warned her about this sort of routine maintenance on those cars as I worked on cars for a living at the time and had seen my fair share of them already.

Provided it ran at all and wasn't having some electronic PMS, requiring some attention from dr. OBDII deleting random error codes before firing up.

But she wanted an Audi... The latest "thing" was that "she wanted an SUV" and came home with a Ford Focus on stilts . With the smallest engine being a 2.0 diesel, this car isn't even particularly competitive price-wise in a heavily taxed car-market. I just try not to comment at all when she has to fold down the rear seats to fit anything at all in the back. Just fitting 5 people makes for a cramped ride, and those people better not be taking anything with them! And the visibility... Yeah, it comes with sensors on all corners, but only because you bloody need them.

SpeedSix > noise 03/25/2014 at 23:24

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Support the Miata! Get a Mazda3 or a Mazda6! :D

Chris Havill > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/26/2014 at 13:24

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good job talking her out of it. my GF had a 05 convertible (stick) and the thing had 3 major issues before 2009 and 50k miles. 2 of which top related, and one of them the power steering "not an issue so we're not recalling or offering goodwill fixes" issue.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > Tom McParland 03/27/2014 at 15:05

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The same could be said for bikes, legit motorcycles or otherwise. And when I mean otherwise, I had to talk someone out of an abused Vespa because they wanted a "motorcycle that had more than 250cc." They actually have an endorsement and somehow mastered the manual on a bike - though they did their test on a similar Burgman 400 as I had.

Anyways, I actually went to go look at the Vespa and not only was it a bit faulty, but this was a 300cc Super. It couldn't move fast enough to save its own life.

Needless to say, I talked them out of it and asked why they want a small scooter over a used bike.

seoultrain > jariten1781 03/27/2014 at 20:28

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Sometimes it can be fun to play dumb for a while, then turn the tables and point out every single point at which they're trying to screw you. Call them evil a-holes and walk out. I've seen sheets where they itemize their advertising and utility bills into their sale price. No joke.

Alternatively, if they don't try to screw you, you know they're good people, and you should buy your car from them.

LappingLuke > Tom McParland 03/27/2014 at 22:55

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I get asked by friends and family alllll the time about what to buy. Every couple months my mom calls me from the break room at work to ask me what a coworker should buy. NOBODY. Not one person has ever taken my advice. They always do the exact opposite...I may start telling them bad cars.

Tom McParland > LappingLuke 03/27/2014 at 22:57

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Just tell them Morgan 3-wheeler...either someone will buy a 3-wheeler or everyone will stop asking you.

LappingLuke > Tom McParland 03/27/2014 at 23:05

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Hahahahaha I like that people ask me (I think...) I just don't like that it seems like they use my advice as what not to do.

Ry-bones, FiST pilot > noise 03/27/2014 at 23:27

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Pump the brakes. If you make $30k/yr DO NOT under any circumstances buy a $22k-24k car. That is financial lunacy. Don't buy new either. No offense is intended but you aren't currently making enough to splurge on a new car. Unless your Focus is breaking down frequently hang on to that thing as long as you can and save the money to buy a car outright in 2 years. Or finance a $10k-12k car for 4-5 years for around $200/mo.

noise > Ry-bones, FiST pilot 03/27/2014 at 23:32

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~10k is about what i'm actually looking for, and the focus is pretty far beyond the point of costly repairs. I've fixed all the stuff that would cause harm, i'm just gonna let it go until the tin worm or engine problem gets it. Which will honestly be pretty soon. I've got savings and stuff dont worry this isnt my first car or anything I was entertaining the topic. I'm either gonna replace the foci with a glorious old oldsmobile for no more than 4 grand or more likely a ford or chevy tree or so years old

Ry-bones, FiST pilot > noise 03/27/2014 at 23:43

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oh thank God. I can sleep easy tonight. good luck.

Eric Johnson > LappingLuke 03/28/2014 at 09:23

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Are you telling them to buy a brown diesel wagon with manual trans and RWD? If so, then there's your problem. I have people ask me about cars, I listen to what they need, and then they buy (most of the time) what I've recommended.