Trucks and Crossovers are Not Just for Morons

"Tom McParland" (tommcparland)
03/16/2014 at 14:10 • Filed to: Rants, Trucks, Crossovers, SUVs, car buying, articles

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! The "crossover" craze has been going on for about 10 years or so, but if you ask some people on the internet the vast majority of truck and crossover buyers are just "idiots who think they need something they don't." This superiority complex of, "I understand what is best better than you," is getting a bit tiring and it is time we lay it all out there.

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I broker deals on vehicles all the time and crossovers are the most popular segment among my clients. I have put more clients in Subaru and Audi crossovers this year than anything else. I have also worked several deals on Grand Cherokees and Pilots. Why do my customers request these vehicles? I will tell you "safety" did not come up in the conversation. They wanted to transport people and stuff. I know that a minivan will objectively haul both better, but people also want to drive something that is enjoyable and stylish. Is that really so terrible? And as much as I would love people to drive more wagons, there are exactly zero wagons available under 45k that offer the same utility of a mid-size crossover. There are only a handful of wagons that rival the utility of compact crossovers, and more often than not the wagon is more expensive.

I also want to address the most common critique of- "People only buy SUVs because they think they are safer." While it is true that many car-buyers have been brainwashed into thinking that larger vehicles are "safer" and 4WD/AWD makes them invincible in bad weather, you are more likely to suffer less damage in a collision in a larger vehicle than in a smaller one. That is not stupidity it is physics. As to the 4WD/AWD invincibility thing, yes we all know that it is the tires that make the difference, but most people (outside of the snowbelt) are not going to run two sets of wheels for varying seasons. So all else being equal a 4WD vehicle with all-season tires is going to have better traction than a 2WD vehicle with all season tires. Will that truck/crossover stop sooner? No, because four-wheel-drive does not mean four-wheel-braking.

But what about all those people who buy pickups and don't "use" them? Just because a pickup is not currently towing a trailer or hauling a full load of plywood that doesn't mean the vehicle isn't being put to good use at some other time. People have a habit of making purchase for 5-10% of their vehicle needs but if once a month you need to haul or tow something and you happen to like pickups, I don't really see the problem.

Let's take a closer look at this need metric. If people only bought cars based on their actual needs than the the number of beige and boring cars would be vastly more than it is now. Does anyone need a 400+ hp Mustang, or a 500hp German sport-sedan or even a 270hp V6 in their Accord? And no one needs car car that can pull 1g on the skid-pad or can lap the Ring in under 8 minutes. People buy what they like, vehicle purchases are made by a combination of needs and wants . I realize this is the internet, making us all experts on what other people should do and passing judgement on someone else's choices makes us feel better. But all someone did was buy a car, or a truck, or an SUV...is it really that big a deal?

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! is a professional car buying consultant, lover of all things automotive and a bit wagon obsessed. You can find more ramblings and plenty of carporn !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

DISCUSSION (100)

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:17

Fuckin' werd.

strokeofgenius > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:26

Agreed. People that want to tell others what car they should or should not purchase also do not get the right to make their own vehicle choice either. That door swings both ways.

Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:26

I agree! I drive a truck and don't I need a truck 80% of the time but when you do need it, its great to have. Plus you don't want to hit a deer in a Carolla

Joe_Limon > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:28

Where do you draw the line between wagon and crossover? Is a lifted wagon still a wagon? If a V60 is a wagon, does the slight lift on the XV60 make it a crossover? Or are both Wagons?

Forgetful > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:29

because four-wheel-drive does not mean four-wheel-braking

Don't most cars feature four-wheel braking?

Tom McParland > Joe_Limon
03/16/2014 at 14:30

This is a a personal thing but if a "wagon" does not have the same ride-height as a sedan it is a crossover. But technically the XC60 and the Outback are wagons.

Tom McParland > Forgetful
03/16/2014 at 14:31

Touche' what I was trying to say is that 4WD doesn't really help with stopping.

JasonSpeed > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:32

We all buy what we want but the fact remains that people think they are safer in a bigger vehicle. I know a guy I work with bought into this after he had a collision with a mid-sized care and the damage his crossover did to the sedan only strengthened his belief. He sold his wife's midsize car and bought her a crossover.

472CID > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:33

Well this isn't fair, you're using logic and common sense to prove a point.

theloudmouth > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:37

All I want is more wagons to be offered, as you rightly stated, on reasonably priced models for a fair comparison against the equivalent crossover.

My only hope is that as my generation (20-30 something) gets older and all of their parents drove crossovers, we'll treat them like our parents did their wagons and revolt.

Then the wagon will rise again!

Tom McParland > theloudmouth
03/16/2014 at 14:37

Totally with you on that one

signintokinjalol > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:40

It's a big deal once they crash into you and kill you.

Atl_boiler > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:42

A friend just bought a new outback... That thing is huge! The proportions are such that it still looks like a wagon but it's definitely creeping into cr-v/rav4 size (or bigger).

Great article. Especially since we just bought an Acadia for our 1 child, two dog family. Probably could've gone with something smaller but the times we need all the space for hauling stuff (seats up or down) it has been nice. We were a two coupe family until now and trying to borrow or rent a truck for large purchases a few times a month absolutely sucked.

Alex87f > signintokinjalol
03/16/2014 at 14:43

Sadly, it is. Switerland had thought of fighting SUV by introducing a tax on heavier vehicles (4 400lbs & more, IIRC), just to avoid this.

Formula1Seb > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:45

Im sitting here at Wendy's window looking out on Long Islands route 109. I've counted 20 suvs/crossovers/vans/pickups in less than 5 minutes of car spotting. Only 1 of those Suv's a Suburban had more than 2 people inside, one that was pulling out of said Wendy's parking lot. Most had the single person driving it. Certainly no need for a truck to haul 2 people around. 95% of the pickups are used in the same way. Clean truck beds never used, not a scratch anywhere, some even run around on chrome wheels. Pretty much none of them seen a construction site or had to tow something. People just want to sit up high and have a big car. Needless crap.

Carlitos the Fünfer > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:45

...you are more likely to suffer less damage in a collision in a larger vehicle than in a smaller one.

...but you'll also cause significantly more damage in a collision. To me that's just not ethical. When everybody is looking out for their own safety and buying bigger cars they're making the road a more dangerous place. Especially when you factor in the point you mentioned of overconfidence in bad weather.

Forgetful > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:48

Kinja'd!!!

Would also have been an acceptable reply

BigGatorChris > signintokinjalol
03/16/2014 at 14:51

So I guess the Keystone Light is just going to magic its way into your fridge?

Trucks are everywhere, and necessary. It's best to avoid colliding with them.

The Compromiser > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:53

My problem is the wife. She wont get another minivan even though it is exactly what she describes we need ( Seats 7, storage and utility in the rear, hatch, high seating. Rear doors on both sides, etc. Basically look up the sales pitch/features for a Grand Caravan.). So I say Tahoe. No that's too big and manly. So she decides Acadian. However not the 2013 model because she doesnt like the grill. And not the Denali ed. Because too much chrome. And 2012 is the best rated year. But low miles ( current used miles are average ok for what she wants). And not this year, but next year. When the trade ins will be rougher and way higher mileage...

Todzzgod > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:53

My mom started driving my dads truck and he never got it back. She loved it because it was much higher and she could see so much better and she was a better driver for it. Its her money and its no ones business if she doesnt want to drive a minivan.

Joe_Limon > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 14:56

That answer confuses me more, what if the XC60 and the Outback have more ground clearance then comparable crossovers like... the Dodge Journey

DipodomysDeserti > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:00

Kinja'd!!!

Crossover you say?

justregisteralready > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:01

I used to work construction, so I bought a fullsize truck. It got used everyday as a truck was designed to be. I no longer work that job, but I still have the truck. It never gets used as a truck anymore, just daily transportation. However, I can't justify selling a perfectly good running(and paid for)truck and getting a small car just because I don't really need to have a truck anymore. There may be that ONE time during the year I will need it, and I will be glad I have it.

deadpedal > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:01

Let's not confuse this with facts, shall we?

Biodegradable Wiring Harness > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:03

I see your point, but ask yourself WHY there are so few wagon options? No, of course it's not because most people are morons, and morons prefer SUV's. But rather it is because morons form a cohesive demographic block that companies can market to, and this moron demographic prefers SUV's. Thus a lot of intelligent people are forced into SUV's because wagons become a specialty item that can command a much higher price. This is the great flaw present in consumerism, democracy, the free market, and free societies in general. They inevitably become a dictatorship of the stupid.

DipodomysDeserti > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:06

Also, pretty much every Subaru wagon ever made has a higher ride height than their sedans. My 91 loyale has 5.9" of clearance. I think it's more of a shape thing. My 2013 forester also has a hatchback and the same ride height, but it's definitely a crossover.

Xander, Proud of BOXER > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:12

People also like to step into vehicles rather than plop down into one. The higher seat height of the crossover/suv/truck/tall vehicle helps. I mean, how many more XV Crosstreks to you think Subaru sells over regular Impreza sedans? They're the same car but one costs marginally more and is taller. (The answer is more XVs since Subaru sells about 10 Imprezas (wagon and sedan) to every 8 XV).

Doctor-G-and-the-wagen > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:20

Personally I treat crossovers as a "too much of a good thing" situation, and now we have way too many of the damn things out there. I'm not really against the concept of the crossover (some people don't need a huge SUV and yet a traditional wagon won't do for some reason) but would just like more wagon options, because even non-jalops might be looking for one.

ZiptieMcBumper > Atl_boiler
03/16/2014 at 15:22

Yeah, the days of the Outback being a slightly lifted Legacy wagon are long gone. It's definitely been a true crossover for years now.

seoultrain > JasonSpeed
03/16/2014 at 15:29

It's the vehicular arms race. Only the heavy and lumbering survive.

Flat Six > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:32

I have both a wagon and a crossover. One of the reasons I went with a crossover this time around is that it provided a huge tax benefit for my wife's business due to it being over 6000 lbs GVW. I am pretty sure that is one of the main reasons for the X5/Q7/Cayenne/Grand Cherokee/etc... being so popular the last few years. Even excluding the tax benefit, a comparably spec'd wagon would have been more expensive and hard to find.

Mister_Moon > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:38

We have both a crossover and a minivan. I'd like something sportier, but that won't happen until kids get out of college. As AutomatchTom says, we got them because they meet our needs even if they don't necessarily give the image we'd like to project. I guess I'm at the age where I don't give a rat's ass what some twenty-something poser cares about me anyway, so no great loss.

Cheesewhiz > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:42

Hmmm, seems like lots of confirmation bias in this: There are no sport wagons under $45k BECAUSE people want the jacked-up crossover look — That's the lack of a sensible market creating a dearth of affordable options due to slim volume potential. It's self-fulfilling.

jalop1991 > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:44

I know that a minivan will objectively haul both better, but people also want to drive something that is enjoyable and stylish. Is that really so terrible?

It isn't that they ALSO want something "enjoyable and stylish;" it's that they want something "enjoyable and stylish" at the expense of the function of hauling people and stuff. Let's face it: no 3 row SUV can come close to hauling 7 or more people as well as a modern minivan, and even something as simple as backseat access in the SUV is demonstrably inferior to that of the minivan.

SUV owners are the poster children for "form over function". They're the auto equivalent of June Cleaver wearing her dress, high heels, and pearls to raise children and run a household.

When your responsibility is to haul a family and its stuff and now and then haul people including grandma and grandpa, but you try to force that round peg into the square hole of an SUV, you are being—wait for it—selfish and irresponsible, not to mention an idiot.

As for 4WD/AWD, that's being driven by a combination of the original SUV design plus people being afraid of RWD. Given that the original SUV design (think original Bronco) is meaningless to the current "make me a station wagon but for God's sake don't make it look like a station wagon" crowd, this is ludicrous. Form over function.

thebigbossyboss > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:45

Here is a question? Have you ever helped someone get a Nissan Armada? I am just curious, because I seriously want to know their rational!

seoultrain > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:48

As a sedan driver, I scoff at wagons who aren't using their cargo space 95% of the time. There isn't much that I can't carry, either, since I have folding seats. /sarcasm

I bet the Miata drivers think we're all nuts. It's all relative.

Tom McParland > thebigbossyboss
03/16/2014 at 15:51

Nope, I would totally try to talk them out of that one.

word-is-bond > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 15:59

I think it just comes down to seating position. Many drivers (and particularly women who are driving car-buying decisions for the family) prefer a higher seating position that allows them to see far down the road.

Other than that - I can't see any reason to buy a Crossover/SUV over the wagon equivalent. The wagon gives you better driving dynamics, and looks; lower weight, lower center of gravity. Yes, there is a real dearth of wagons available at a reasonable price, but why choose the Subie XV over the Impreza? It's more expensive, and all you get is a bit more rugged looks, and a higher seating position/load height.

For me, I'll take the lower seating position and better driving dynamics. I'd rather be low and nimble than have a commanding view of the road and feel like I'm large and lumbering.

East-West Brothers Garage > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:00

Unfortunately, this is unlikely to happen because Americans have demonstrated that they prefer the CUV. The only people buying wagons tend to be car nuts like us who want a bit of utility with our fun and refuse to believe that a lifted vehicle will offer the same kind of performance as something that has the same ride height as a car. So at the end of the day, we will continue to see only a limited number of wagons and hatchbacks, which is unfortunate.

dr2fish > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:03

I'm with you, man. We recently bought a 2012 RAV4 V6, and it's the perfect all-round vehicle *for us*. We have a toddler and another on the way, and often take week-long trips 6 hours away to visit family. The car gives us awd, plenty of power, decent gas mileage, capacious storage space, and handling better than a minivan. The big advantage over a wagon (besides price) is the ease of loading the toddler in - bending down and reaching to the middle seat is a contortionistic pain-in-the-back, as we found with our previous e39 5-series. Plus it is slightly shorter than wagons so it fits in our garage better. So, CUV haters, get over yourselves. There's something for everybody out there.

hipsterssuck111 > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:05

Bullshit. Crossovers and SUVS are only driven by dickbags and soccer moms. Trucks are becoming less utilitarian and more "'MURICA!", at least those sold in the US.

Tom McParland > hipsterssuck111
03/16/2014 at 16:11

Man it took two hours for a comment like this to show up. I'm kinda disappointed.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:18

This is exactly what I was thinking about the other day...all too often I see comments on here about how people with big trucks are just "compensating" for something. But really, the people making these comments are the same people who have a 400HP muscle car, or a small 2 seat roadster, or an awd turbocharged sedan...if you're really being honest aren't you "compensating" for something too? If everyone was just getting what they needed and not "compensating" for anything then we should all be driving 4 cylinder, beige, auto toyota corollas according to the logic of unnecessary=compensating for something.

hipsterssuck111 > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:25

Ha! Glad to disappoint you. But it's true. 99.999% of SUV drivers don't drive them as they were engineered. Because the weather and road conditions are so terrible that everyone needs an SUV in Los Angeles, amirite?

TBH I am not sure what crossovers were designed for other than being a marketing ploy to sell more cars to more soccer moms.

And trucks? Seriously? Their bed sizes continue to shrink as they up the "MURICA!" on them. Totally defeating the purpose.

Sorry that you think assholes need/should be allowed to buy these vehicles, but I don't. I have never seen one person in one of these types of vehicles that didn't drive like a compete and utter asshole. Couple that with them taking up far too much space for parking and the drivers of them hardly knowing how to park them anyway and yes, my disdain for all of these vehicles and their drivers is strong.

Graflex > Atl_boiler
03/16/2014 at 16:28

Wait, since when is a CRV huge?

The 2014 CRV is SMALLER then the 2014 Accord sedan! It's over a foot shorter, and two inches narrower then the Accord sedan. They weigh within 100 pounds of each other depending on options alone. Yeah, the CRV is designed a bit taller, but its still a (relatively) small car!

lie2me > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:28

Thank you for putting into words this dead horse I've been beating for too many years. I no longer defend my right/desire/wish to drive a CUV. Besides being nobody's business and just bad manners, why do people think they have the obligation/right/balls to tell a CUV owner he doesn't need it, or should have bought____(insert car brand)___,or is killing the planet (my favorite) with the vehicle he chose to buy? It would never cross my mind to criticize some one else's choice of car, since I ain't payin' for it I don't care what the hell you drive and I expect the same lack of interest in return.

Now, go and get yourself one and blame it on your wife , "Because she just won't drive a mini-van"

zipfuel > thebigbossyboss
03/16/2014 at 16:28

One of the most appropriately named vehicles of all time though!

Tom McParland > hipsterssuck111
03/16/2014 at 16:29

But you know what's the worst? Hipsters...especially hipsters who drive SUVs. :D

trynthink > BigGatorChris
03/16/2014 at 16:31

That's totally different, because while those vehicles are very heavy, they are (mostly) driven by people with CDLs (or the equivalent heavy goods vehicle licenses in other countries) who drive for a living. There are some exceptions, and I'm sure there are vehicles being driven by people without proper licenses, but the general idea is that very large, heavy vehicles require special skills to manage safely on the road.

I would actually be in support of an endorsement or an age limit on larger SUVs. For example, anyone with a normal DL can drive a car that is under 4000 lbs GVWR or under 6" ride height (not sure of the exact numbers here), but if you want to drive something especially big, wide, or heavy, (e.g. a Suburban) you need to take a weekend training class that teaches you how to park, maneuver, and do high-speed handling with big/high vehicles. And no one under 21 should drive one at all.

Half-Caulked Jack > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:33

Nice article! I had so much to say at the beginning of the article, but you successfully whittled away most of my arguments in the last couple paragraphs.

If anything, this article outlined the core of the problem without actually addressing it head-on; We need more wagons. Some of them need to be bigger, most of them need to be cheaper, and all of them need to be available in the NA market. If you could get a wagon that seats five, has the same cargo capacity as a crossover AND costs less, it would be a no-brainer for many people. 4WD/AWD? Easy. Safety? In spades. Utility? Up the wazoo.

Many would still continue to buy crossovers and SUVs and pickups, but some would make the switch, and some is better than none.

Frankenbike666 > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:33

I'm not sure SUVs and CUVs should be considered in the same category. CUVs are essentially tall hatchbacks. And they're what people buy instead of station wagons. I also don't think most CUVs on the market are even AWD, let alone 4WD.

SUVs: based on trucks
CUVs: based on cars

hipsterssuck111 > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:34

I agree. Hence the username hipstersSUCK111. Reading not your strong suit? :P

trynthink > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:38

you are more likely to suffer less damage in a collision in a larger vehicle than in a smaller one.

While length and width do confer a small benefit in terms of total crush distance available before affecting the occupant area, which can reduce crash forces on the passengers, I believe the principal factor affecting injury risk is weight, not size. That's why electric cars, with their heavy batteries, have the vehicle-to-vehicle crash behavior of a much larger vehicle.

Also, I think the fact that there are so few mid-priced wagons is a huge factor here. I know a couple people that have the JSW and love them, but it doesn't have much in the way of competition in the $25k wagon space, especially if you want a manual. Of course, there's the chicken-and-egg issue here (wagons aren't available because they don't sell, and they don't sell because...). All I know is that I hope the Mazda5 is around when I need a car like that, because MT + sliders + fits in parking spaces = brilliant.

wontacceptthis > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:39

As much as I hate crossovers, yeah, you are right. It does make sense to buy something that you need 5% of the time, even if you look like you don't need it 95% of the time. To put it into perspective, if you commuted 5 days a week, and needed a specialized vehicle 5% of the time, you'd have to rent a vehicle 26 times a year to fill that need.

Besides, I'd rather see all the Kim Kardashiabrat wannabes driving crossovers than Subarbans.

Volvosaurus-Rex > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 16:40

It is a big deal. Stigma was what killed the affordable wagon, not astronomical prices that you mention. I know you're referring to the E wagon and 3 wagon and soon the V60, and the only reason those still succeed us because the people that can afford them are too old to care about stigma. That leaves a huge gaping hole in the market that has been filled by crossovers, which I am not arguing about, but I am disappointed how the crossover craze has depleted the market of affordable and fun wagons.

Tom McParland > hipsterssuck111
03/16/2014 at 16:40

I made that comment because I was trying to have some fun with this convo...but yeah I never read only comment. :D

thebigbossyboss > zipfuel
03/16/2014 at 16:46

True that, true that.

fdomestic > The Compromiser
03/16/2014 at 16:50

She must be quite the looker

King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider > hipsterssuck111
03/16/2014 at 16:52

You seem angry about this, perhaps you should see a therapist. Or drink more.

Collin > Forgetful
03/16/2014 at 16:59

Plus it's the best car on the market today.

Graflex > East-West Brothers Garage
03/16/2014 at 17:00

I might well be one of the people who would prefer a crossover - but here's why.

I'm a tall person. An inch or two under 6 feet. I have to think about getting into a normal sedan. I need to somewhat plan where my legs and feet go, and watch my head so I don't smack into the roof. Plain and simple, its easier to get into a crossover, or something with a taller ride height. (I could care less if you call it a crossover, SUV, truck, or whatever.) It takes some thought about how to get into my moms Accord. I can just simply slide in sideways to my CRV, without thinking about it. Its just more comfortable for me. Same thing for the back seat. I'm perfectly comfortable IN the back seat of the accord, but getting in can be tough. Its also nice having AWD (although it wasn't really a factor in choosing it at the time.)

There are times when I'd like something like a station wagon, to get a lower vehicle with a little bit better stability (or at least something that feels a bit more connected to the ground around corners.) But I don't want to think about how I have to get in and out of it.

Bueller > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 17:01

Wrong. Trucks sell more than cars in America for the same reason that houses have never been so big for so small families: easy credit. Americans have for generations had a culture of waste, in which efficiency is not only ignored, but mocked. Surely, all these things are bought to meet needs, sometimes actual, often imaginary needs: truck beds remain immaculate for years, home rooms remain unused for a decade.

Other developed countries would do the same, where credit is typically almost as easy, if the memories of awful post-war recoveries hadn't shaped their cultures to this day to be less wasteful.

Bueller > East-West Brothers Garage
03/16/2014 at 17:05

I guess that when I'm shopping for a car and the salesman mentions a truck and I reply that I'd never be caught dead in one he must think I'm not patriotic or, worse, unamerican. And he's then right, for I wouldn't be caught dead with an American passport either.

hipsterssuck111 > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 17:06

Lel. Hats off to you, sir.

hipsterssuck111 > King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider
03/16/2014 at 17:06

Both? At the same time? :)

Bueller > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
03/16/2014 at 17:07

No, because 400HP, a roadster or a turbo sedan provide their function all the time: joy. Whereas that empty bed and the completely mud-free chassis in the truck are not performing their function, likely ever in the life of the vehicle.

The Compromiser > fdomestic
03/16/2014 at 17:12

Anyone who puts up with my shit is gorgeous.

ThePro > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 17:18

I bought a CR-V because I needed the practicality, the space and because the AWD system has gotten me out of bad situations more than once (And I can finally go up my driveway when it snows!). The fuel economy on my CR-V isn't any worse than any mid-size sedan and it's not a minivan.

shop-teacher > thebigbossyboss
03/16/2014 at 17:19

Hahahaha! My brother in law bought one a couple years ago, it did not go well.

His rational for a large SUV was he's a very large man with four kids.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Bueller
03/16/2014 at 17:21

Just because you don't enjoy riding in a big spacious truck doesn't mean other people don't, besides some of those trucks are tuned/modded to be just as fast in a straight line as many sports cars, which is all most people use their sports cars for anyways (accelerating fast on on ramps and at stop lights). All I am saying is get what you want to drive, stop hating on other peoples' choices because they aren't the ones you'd make.

I never said sports cars aren't fun either, all I said is the most common argument you see on here is that big trucks are "unnecessary", well so is a sports car. Sorry, having a car for joy is not a necessity (even though most of us would like to think it is).

Atl_boiler > Graflex
03/16/2014 at 17:21

The outback is huge, and is now similar in size to a crv (instead of a car based wagon).

shop-teacher > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 17:22

I just wanted to say thank you Tom. I've been trying to express a lot of the same things. I think I'll share something to Oppo that I've been working on for a while.

thebigbossyboss > shop-teacher
03/16/2014 at 17:26

The buying it didn't go well, or the ownership didn't go well?

Cody Spradlin > Cheesewhiz
03/16/2014 at 17:37

It's pretty much only the Jetta Sportwagen, soon to be the Golf Sportwagen. Of course, all the drivers I know that drive a JSW have the diesel version, for the torque and MPGs. At which point, it goes from 20k to 26k, base models (S and TDI)

AJ_Lethal > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 17:38

"I also want to address the most common critique of- "People only buy SUVs because they think they are safer." While it is true that many car-buyers have been brainwashed into thinking that larger vehicles are "safer" and 4WD/AWD makes them invincible in bad weather, you are more likely to suffer less damage in a collision in a larger vehicle than in a smaller one."

Yeah, but you're forgetting that SUVs are heavier and have a higher center of gravity, thus they are more prone to lose control and/or roll over than a car.

Bueller > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
03/16/2014 at 17:39

Many trucks are not spacious at all. Many have such inefficient packaging for that drive line that never gets exercised that one has to sit with the knees point up in them. The space is so scarce, that many even lack room for the spare, which has to hang outside the vehicle. And all those mods, with shoddy steering and lame brakes make things worse, not better. It's always amazing how those who favor trucks rationalize their choice so blindly.

Cody Spradlin > jalop1991
03/16/2014 at 17:40

You know what, as a 22-year-old male, I would be ECSTATIC if someone made an affordable AWD/4WD minivan. I've been driving a Wrangler for several years now, getting ready to trade it in for a diesel sedan because I can't afford 19MPG for multiple road trips a year, but a minivan provides all the hauling space I could ever want.

Atl_boiler > Atl_boiler
03/16/2014 at 17:41

And an accord is a pretty large car.

Cheesewhiz > Cody Spradlin
03/16/2014 at 17:42

Yep, and it's really not all that sporty either. Great vehicle but there's few options for those of mortal means who actually want to enjoy the drive as well.

shop-teacher > thebigbossyboss
03/16/2014 at 17:47

Ownership. It had lots of little problems that the dealer could never fix. He just traded it in on a Tahoe a few weeks ago.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Joe_Limon
03/16/2014 at 17:48

SUVs and crossovers are all wagons... going right back to the original SJ Cherokee/Wagoneer.

I made a pretty extensive argument a while back using actual manufacturer advertisments to support it.

The term "SUV" and "crossover" are just creations from evil marketing people to get dumb yuppies to pay more for wagons by calling them something other than a wagon.

Reborn Pyrrhic > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 17:49

Doesn't the Armada have the highest towing rating of full size SUVs? I can't recall but I think I read that somewhere.

Reborn Pyrrhic > hipsterssuck111
03/16/2014 at 17:50

Amen brother, preach away!

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > The Compromiser
03/16/2014 at 17:53

How do you put up with all that?

Man if it was me, I would come home with a $19995 value package Chrysler minivan.

And if she didn't like it, I'd tell her that next time, she can do her own shopping with her own cheque book/money.

farginicehole69 > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 17:54

First, its a joy to read your logical and succinct articles Automatch.

To everyone else:

Manufacturers DID make wagons. Look at BMW, Audi, Volvo, Ford, etc. People didn't buy them. Sure everyone on Jalopnik says they will buy the magical manual turbo brown wagon, but you aren't going to REALLY buy one. There will be something wrong with it. (They only put an 6 speed manual in? I'm waiting for a 7 speed. They have one in the Corvette and the 911 for Petes sake). I know this because I've been on the internet a long time, also, my theory is proven out by the BRZ/FR-S.

So that's why these manufacturers are building CUVs. They want to turn a profit. Which sells better, a Q5 or an A4 wagon?

Also, a CUV can be a better choice - look at the CRV and the TSX Wagon (a stand in for an Accord Wagon if it existed in the US). They both have a 2.4L/5AT. The CRV holds more (8 cubic feet), has better ground clearance (and better approach and departure for snow, curbs, rutted roads, etc), is narrower by an inch and shorter by a foot (easier to park, fits better in the garage), weighs less (a fully loaded AWD CRV is almost 100lbs less than a FWD TSX Wagon), same 0-60 time, same MPGs. The only difference is in handling. So if your family spends more time at costco than screaming around corners, which most families do, the CRV is a much better choice.

I have a 2013 Accord Sport 6MT. My wife drives a 2010 RAV4. Even if the Accord was a wagon, the RAV4 would be a better family car. I also have an S2000, and we took my wives RAV4 on a road trip to VIR. Because 2 hours of fun on the Blue Ridge Parkway was cancelled out by the 24+ hours of interstate and dirt roads and the ability to pack more than one suitcase. In fact, if we had to go with one car only, it would be the RAV4 no contest. From road trips, to IKEA runs, to loading 500lbs of dirt at home depot, to light off roading, to 12"+ of snow, to a drive to the grocery store, it has never failed to perform.

So while a CUV may not be everyones ideal car, its an ideal car for a lot of us.

BigGatorChris > trynthink
03/16/2014 at 17:55

There are Camaros over 4000lbs. They weigh more than many crossovers, including a hybrid Lexus. I had a 3/4 ton Suburban. It handled as well, or better than my Camry of a similar vintage. I'm sure it would have been faster around a real road course. Maneuvering one safely is not a graduate level exercise.

While I'm a huge proponent of making licenses harder to get in general, I'd rather see things move more towards a single age of consent than away from it. If you feel compelled to lobby for another layer of Byzantine government regulation, might I suggest increasing gas taxes? That would help weed out the folks who actually need the utility of a big SUV from those who really only require a minivan.

Formula4speed > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 17:58

I'm with you on most of this, but have to object to the idea that a larger vehicle somehow takes less damage than a smaller one in a collision. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I'm concerned you're thinking about this is backwards, and a deeper understanding might cause you to sway your customers toward smaller cars more frequently.

The fact of the matter is, for a given speed, the "amount of damage", aka the amount of energy a vehicle is forced to absorb in a multi-vehicle collision has almost everything to do with the mass of the other vehicle in the collision, or in the case of head-on collisions, the combined mass of the two vehicles. In either case, the smaller the colliding cars are, the less energy being transferred, and the better off both car's occupants will most likely be. This, combined with vehicle compatibility during a collision (vehicle compatibility, conceptually, is the idea that cars should be engineered within a specific range of dimensions to prevent either car from missing the safety countermeasures built into the other, which usually manifests in the form of one car sliding under/over another) and the paths and countermeasures the engineers designed to protect the passenger cell, are what determine the likelihood of injury during a collision.

If your primary concern with that part of the article was to reaffirm the rumor that larger cars are safer, you might consider "safety" in a more interdependent sense. The engineers designing small cars understand that the roads are dominated by larger vehicles and have designed them to the best of their ability to compensate for collisions with larger vehicles, but there's only so much they can do, and the roads in general would still become much, much, much safer if the amount of energy cars were forced to absorb in General were decreased. The only way to do this is to reduce the average mass of vehicles on the road, and by correlation until new lightweight manufacturing tech becomes mainstream, the size of vehicles on the road.

In other words, recommending safety-minded passengers purchase a larger vehicle to reduce the damage they would take in a wreck is both fallacious in concept and increasing the amount of damage they would deal in a wreck, and therefore making everyone, including themselves when they're hit by another larger vehicle, less safe.

Cole Paquette > Bueller
03/16/2014 at 17:59

So why is it blind rationalization for someone who likes trucks to say they just like them, but if that same person said they liked Miatas just because they liked them, that would be perfectly okay and not blind rationalization at all?

GoatsAndStangsAnd911sOhMy > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 18:00

My dad drives a truck because he needs to tow a 4 ton barbecue. That qualifies as a need I think.

Cody Spradlin > Cheesewhiz
03/16/2014 at 18:03

Unless you want to spend allllll kinds of money to get the best package they have, and still keep the same drivetrain and only get some basic (mostly interior) upgrades like a nav system and panoramic sunroof.

Hell, the "sporty" car VW offers at the moment is a Golf variant and they actually use the words "hot hatch" in the tagline! Why can't I just have a spirited wagon or even minivan?

chinese machines > theloudmouth
03/16/2014 at 18:08

agreed. 99.9999999% of truck/suv/crossover customers would be better served by a wagon. if you need to haul stuff you probably need a wagon. if you need to haul it across the Serengeti then an SUV makes more sense.

the problem is style. people are buying these cars bc of what they think it says about who they are. and because they're buying them the auto companies aren't making good wagons anymore.

and then also, i think people are building their lifestyle around the car, rather than the other way around. like some johnny up there who said he makes a "large purchase" twice a month. really? buying a lot of refrigerators?

Crashburn > Graflex
03/16/2014 at 18:10

Since when did 5'10 or 5'11" equal tall? Shaq would like a word.

Quentin0352 > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 18:19

You mean people like this who know better what kind of vehicles we should all drive? BTW, my use of biodiesel, filtered cooking oil in the summer and filtered used vehicles fluids like oil and transmission fluid to help fill my tank means I am recycling a lot and better for the environment for those Prius owners who brag while ripping a bunch of lead and rare earth minerals in strip mining. They hate it when you point out how big their pollution footprint is for those things.

Crazy Prius lady...

Tom McParland > Formula4speed
03/16/2014 at 18:20

From meta perspective, you are totally correct, but my main point is that safety isn't really a primary concern among my customers. They want something that can move people and things easily. Often they are older and find it easier to get in and out of a compact crossover than a sedan.

JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! > Tom McParland
03/16/2014 at 18:28

Its absolutely true... my parents bought an 07 Honda Pilot back when it was new. it was them, the two kids, and three dogs. We are never all together, and the dogs are small. We could've gone a lot smaller; but so far we have hauled dishwashers, dressers, TV stands, side tables, desks, and much more in it. We don't use all the space 89% of the time; but we really need it for the other 11%.

JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
03/16/2014 at 18:29

The value package is honestly ridiculously great. If I ever need a minivan, I will consider it

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Bueller
03/16/2014 at 18:31

I don't like how a lot of people mod their trucks either (the bro-truck types), I think a truck should be built for towing or actual off-road capability (moderate lift, a bit bigger tires, lockers, etc.) The bro-trucks are just like slammed or donk cars, not particularly useful, but flashy for sure (which is the purpose they are looking for). The point I am trying to make is, whatever floats your boat. Don't hate on styles you don't like or think are stupid just because it's not to your taste.

Tom McParland > GoatsAndStangsAnd911sOhMy
03/16/2014 at 18:33

Your dad is awesome....can I get some free BBQ?

BigBlock440 > seoultrain
03/16/2014 at 18:37

As a motorcycle driver, I scoff at the sedan and coupe drivers who don't have 5 passengers in them all the time. Most are just using them to go to work and back, it's ridiculous and wasteful and way more than they need.

jalop1991 > farginicehole69
03/16/2014 at 18:41

Manufacturers DID make wagons. Look at BMW, Audi, Volvo, Ford, etc. People didn't buy them.

Manufacturers DID make manual transmissions. People didn't buy them.

The world is ruled by...stupid people in large groups.