Here's Why People Expect More Power From The GT86 Twins

"PS9" (PS9)
03/09/2014 at 21:37 • Filed to: None

M.S.R.Ps. They are what manufacturers think their products should cost given fair market conditions. They are also not iron clad. A dealer is free to charge whatever they think they can get, and a product on the open market is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. Lets examine GT86s on the open market, and see why people think they should come with more power.

M.S.R.P. for an FR-S is !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . $26k for the Auto. So now that we know how much they cost, we just saddle up and head to the nearest dealer with our down payment in hand, right? Haha. Hoo hoo. Not so fast. Dealers where !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . It's not impossible to get an FR-S for close to - or even below - MSRP if you live within a 50 mile radius of me, but be prepared to do some driving, seaeching and haggling to make it happen. Also be prepared for disappointment; They wouldn't ask inflated prices for the bulk of their stock if they didn't think the demand would allow them to get it.

Want your GT86 to come from scooby instead of a 'yota? !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , it is. Minus the deals I mentioned before.

The Abarth MSRP is only a bit lower than the FR-S, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , but that does not reflect the market reality. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , there is in actuality a $6k gap between these two cars, which can widen to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (!) if you do some of that haggling, search and long distance driving I mentioned before.

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , with a handful of examples actually sitting a bit below M.S.R.P.

Now we have the answer to our question. Why is it okay for everyone else to underperform? Because the GT86 right now is asking a significant premium over it's competition. I cannot say if these market conditions are true everywhere in america, but if they are, it would to me fully explain the 'it needs more power' judgement people render against it. For me, a $5k-$10k premium is firmly crouched in 'why is this not faster?' territory, given what we know about the car, and what it's competitors are capable of.

This is such an easy fix. Add .5 more L, a bit of tuning and some exhaust, and done. 50 more ponies would end (or at least significantly alter) the conversation, without adding a single pound of curb weight.

DISCUSSION (25)

YSI-what can brown do for you > PS9
03/09/2014 at 21:40

I got mine for less then MSRP, but they had some college student rebate bullshit or something. Me and my dad pushed for it and we got it. If you were in the military you could ask for a rebate of some sort.

Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ > YSI-what can brown do for you
03/09/2014 at 21:42

I got mine for around letter price, but I had 4 dealers in my area competing to sell me the same car. It helps to shop around.

ZFTG > PS9
03/09/2014 at 21:45

What kind of Dumb ass would pay above MSRP for a vehicle? I have never purchased a vehicle at MSRP and I also have not had to wait for anything I have owned. Jeep, Lexus, Ford, Chevrolet, Porsche, etc. All of them were bought well below MSRP.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ
03/09/2014 at 21:51

Did you get a Subaru or a Scion?

JasonStern911 > PS9
03/09/2014 at 22:03

fairly true. but even 200 horsepower would have been fine had the car been priced accordingly. had the FR-S come in with a MSRP of $20k, I probably would have bought one instead of my 996. but it didn't.

take the Civic SI. same horsepower, same or better reliability, build quality, etc. and yet somehow it comes in at $3k less.

"but rear wheel drive!"

okay. take the Ford Mustang. two extra cylinders, a hundred extra horsepower, and effectively double the torque. all for $3k less.

so yeah. the MSRP is a huge factor for why the FR-S is failing. but adding power isn't the only solution - cutting costs would have been equally effective.

dogisbadob > PS9
03/09/2014 at 22:05

Report them to Toyota. Scion dealers aren't supposed to charge above MSRP.

Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ > YSI-what can brown do for you
03/09/2014 at 22:09

Subaru.

Sinanigans > PS9
03/09/2014 at 22:39

I think it highly depends on the market. I'm in Jersey and got mine for below MSRP. But, this is my 2nd Subaru and I was back to the dealership that sold me my first. So they were willing to deal (props to Liberty Subaru!!!). I've heard horror stories about the West coast pricing though...

CRider > dogisbadob
03/09/2014 at 22:55

By law, Toyota can't force dealers to charge MSRP for cars.

dogisbadob > CRider
03/09/2014 at 23:19

No, but they could probably do something though, like maybe not give them as many FRS'es, or not allow them to sell RS models, or terminate their Scion part (Toyota was looking to reduce the number of Scion dealers)

But really it's just another reason to root for Tesla and have more factory direct sales. They are probably not gouging the Model S.

Forgetful > JasonStern911
03/09/2014 at 23:30

Both the Civic and the Mustang are well established, high volume cars. You pay less because everyone and their dog has one.

CRider > dogisbadob
03/09/2014 at 23:32

I don't think choking the supply of FRS's is going to help the price gouging problem, or help the car sell any better than it is. The best thing the can do is flood dealers with them and market the crap out of it. If dealers can charge over MSRP, it makes me think the low sales numbers are a supply issue not a demand issue.

Forgetful > PS9
03/09/2014 at 23:35

Payed below MSRP for mine, back in August before the reported low sales slump.

If the car isn't selling no one is going to be trying to sell it over sticker. Can't be both.

If you want a more powerful 86, boost that shit. There's enough miles on the kits out there that they can be trusted to provide the extra 50hp everyone is clamoring for, trouble free. What happened to that hot rodder spirit?

JasonStern911 > Forgetful
03/09/2014 at 23:39

the exclusivity argument is invalid. it's exclusive because it isn't selling, and it isn't selling because there are better values for performance cars out there.

that said, the high volume comment has a lot of truth to it. the FA motor in the GT86s is unique to the car. had they instead used a more common mass produced motor like the EJ25, then they likely could have reduced costs due to the motor being used in several platforms. more shared parts means a lower MSRP means more buyers means a better chance at becoming a well established, high volume car.

feather-throttle-not-hair > ZFTG
03/09/2014 at 23:53

It's almost like you're willing to check more than one dealership and maybe spend a couple of hours driving to save yourself a grand or two.

SteyrTMP > PS9
03/10/2014 at 00:08

This is nothing new. Give it a few years.

My second car, the one before my current Subaru, was a new 2004 Mini Cooper S. At the point where I bought mine, the Mini had been here for about three, four years, with the MCS a little less. They were going like hotcakes: When I went to the dealership, there was about 20 cars in the showroom and the parking lot; I came back a week later to get my car, and they were gone.

I sat with a dealer, picked out colors, addons, etc... to be told that it'd take about four months to get here. I needed a car then, so I asked what was the next thing on the boat. They had two blue MCS's, one loaded, one stock. I picked the loaded one, and got it the next week.

Back to what I was saying... they were selling very fast. There was no haggling—I mentioned something about the lack of cars when I went to pick mine up; there was one or two cars in the showroom the second time there, both marked sold. They told me there was a 14 month waiting period in California, with a ridiculous premium over MSRP. There was a truck with cars on it in the lot, and I was told they'd never come off before going to CA. Half of each of their shipments would already be sold to someone there.

It's not that bad with the GT86, but I can see where it's coming from.

ZFTG > feather-throttle-not-hair
03/10/2014 at 01:04

Indeed. I live north of Houston, I have gone north of Detroit to pick up a car before. I picked up a C6 Z06 in Jan of 2009 and bought it for $15k less than any dealers in Houston would take. What did it cost me? 2 plane tickets and 2 nights in hotels. Picked it up on Friday morning and was back in Houston Sunday night.

It is a shame people can't use common sense to compare potential savings.

shpuker > JasonStern911
03/10/2014 at 01:12

No it isn't. They're literally selling any and every car they get on the lot. Last time I was down at the big Subie dealer by me they had 25 BRZ's on the lot, every single one was already spoken for and had gotten to the dealer less than 3 days before then.

WZAnon > PS9
03/10/2014 at 02:51

PS9 makes many good points I agree with. Even covered the areas that folks could attempt to argue. Well done. I wish we could all go toyota headquarters and do something about it. But we can't. :(

dogisbadob > CRider
03/10/2014 at 12:18

Not choking the supply of them, just not letting THAT dealer sell them, and instead supplying the same number of them but excluding the gougers.

CRider > dogisbadob
03/10/2014 at 17:25

As with the Corvette, GTR, Shelby Mustangs and other high demand low price cars there simply isn't much they can do. The less dealers that sell them, the less competition there is. If the majority of Scion dealers mark up the price Toyota can't just cut them off. And if Toyota did do that, the cars would be flying off a few dealers lots but it would overall hurt sales numbers, especially from people that just want a car but don't care too much for shopping around- AKA, Toyota customers.

JasonStern911 > shpuker
03/11/2014 at 00:17

must be regional. here, I would be shocked if there were 25 BRZs/FR-S' in all of Reno. there's even a reasonably priced, low mileage used one that has been posted on the dealer portion of craigslist for a couple of weeks now. everyone wants the Impreza or Legacy with all-wheel drive for the four days a year we have snow. I guess there is some justification for those that snowboard/ski Squaw Valley/Mt. Rose/Lake Tahoe, but most seem to take advantage of the all-wheel drive as infrequently as the average Jeep owner goes off-roading. :)

but seriously, sharing parts does reduce the manufacturer's cost. not sure why you'd argue that point.

shpuker > JasonStern911
03/11/2014 at 13:11

Potentially, I know in Colorado people mainly just have a raging hard on for anything Subaru, so all the STI fan boys were pumped about a rwd Subaru toy.

I don't disagree with that at all though, however I think Subaru's thinking behind developing the new engine was aimed more towards using the BRZ/FR-S as a test bed for the new motor before tossing on the turbo for the WRX and before putting it into their biggest sellers. They sorted out any kinks the motor had well before turning it lose to the people that don't tolerate things breaking and they got to watch people like Crawford toss on turbo kits and test the limits of the engines without having to find them for the first time themselves.

Hopefully that means they'll throw the turbo version of the new 2.0 into the BRZ soon, or once they finally develop a replacement for the EJ25 with a bored out version of it or whatever they find up doing. Hopefully.

OppositeLoctopus > PS9
03/25/2014 at 15:20

I call bullshit. Scion dealerships are literally forbidden by corporate policy from marking up the MSRP for an FR-S - or any other Scion for that matter. This was made quite clear to me when I shopped several Toyota/Scion dealers for my FR-S. I paid $0.00 over MSRP (though it would have been nice to get some incentives with that...)

BRZs though? Yeah, those get marked up quite a bit in my area, and the MSRP is higher to begin with. Part of the reason I bought the FR-S instead.

PS9 > OppositeLoctopus
03/25/2014 at 17:45

Call it all you want, dealers in my area are still doing it, and still brazenly advertising it as such.