Why Are Some Cars Allowed To Evolve But Others Are Not?

"Tom McParland" (tommcparland) 03/07/2014 at 09:38 • Filed to: MINI, VW, Articles

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Every time MINI comes out with a newer, bigger, model the internet lights the torches and sharpens the pitchforks. I understand that a brand called "MINI" is supposed to have well, "mini" cars but unfortunately people don't want to buy "mini" cars they want to buy regular cars with a MINI badge. Yet many of us believe that MINI vehicles should still be this.

Once upon a time the VW Golf was a small hatchback. Then it grew, every generation was larger than the last.

The Golf had its good years and bad, but few complained about the size. The MKV was a return in quality and dynamics to the Golf we knew and loved from years past. But the MKV was still big by comparison. The MKVII looks to be one of the best versions of the globally loved compact to date.

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . That makes sense because small doesn't really sell. In 2003 the "new" Mini Cooper was released and was an instant hit. I ordered an '04 Cooper S and had wait 3 months for it. At the time the S models were flying off the lots and could only be had with a manual transmission. Three years later my Cooper was totaled in a flood and I thought about picking up another one. I was shocked at the number of lightly used Coopers in the pre-owned market. I asked a dealer at MINI about this phenomenon. He said, "People bought them because they were 'cute and fun' but after a year, reality set in and a lot of people traded them because they were 'too stiff and too small."

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The next generation Cooper had a significantly softer suspension with the sport suspension being "optional," even on the S models. And The current generation has gotten much bigger, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Most people see MINI as BMW's "youth division" a la Toyota's Scion, as a lifestyle brand meant to filter buyers into BMWs as their income increases. Whether or not that plan comes to fruition is another story. But what if MINI was not so focused, what if MINI was more like VW to Audi? And therein lies MINI's problem, the brand doesn't know how it wants to occupy the market.

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However, if MINI is going more along the lines of VW, why are we o.k. with this-

But not this?

I'm rather fond of the Jetta Sportwagen (Golf Variant), it is a fun car but not really a "performance" car. However, if the Clubman offers a nice turbo-4 with an available, sport suspension, and 6-speeds, that would make me very interested. Is the this bigger Clubman concept moving the MINI brand farther from its roots? Probably, but it might move it closer to something us Jalops might really dig.

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! is a professional car buying consultant, lover of all things automotive and a bit wagon obsessed. You can find more ramblings and plenty of carporn !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

MonkeePuzzle > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:43

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< creationism argument here >

Jagvar > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:44

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Personally, I think MINI is restricted by its own name. If it's called MINI, people expect the cars to be just that...mini. I'm not saying I agree with this mindset, but I think it's just the reality of the situation.

Party-vi > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:44

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I FEAR CHANGE BECAUSE PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET TELL ME TO HOLD ME IT'S GETTING DARK IN HERE AND I CAN'T MAKE DECISIONS FOR MYSELF!!!

Brian Silvestro > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:44

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Another great write-up, as usual.

Tom McParland > Jagvar 03/07/2014 at 09:45

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I think you are right...but that doesn't seem to be holding back Countryman sales.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:45

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Mini has always been a niche car for a niche market. It's breaking out of the niche that made it famous, and that's what is upsetting people. Increasing size for a Mini is more akin to the new FWD BMWs and bottom rung Mercedes than it is to VW building a bigger Golf.

Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:47

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Cars are like Pikachu, you loved the original so much you can't see it evolving into anything (Raichu), even if the new one is superior in every way.

Don't like Pokemon? How about a Big Bang Theory Star Trek joke by Sheldon

"Though Star Trek: Next Generation is better in every conceivable way it will never be as loved or discussed as much as the greatly inferior original Star Trek"

Both schools of thought apply to the Mini.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:49

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There are some of us who still love the Mini.

That being said, if I drove the old one, it's more likely to be parked. I don't want to see how it fares up in an accident. And to the people who don't, it's not the 1980s anymore.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:50

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I think it's because evolution, in this case, changes one of the core aspects of the car, the size. Or lack thereof. The Golf was never limited by size, it's still a small hatchback that shares much of the ethos of the original car.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you. It might be silly to call a regular sized car MINI, but it's also silly to keep making a car no one will buy. How many of those who complain about Mini's sudden growth spur actually own or are considering buying one? I think people are just angry to see the Mini dishing its original purpose of being a very small, very practical car, to become a normal car with a fashionable badge.

Tom McParland > BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion 03/07/2014 at 09:50

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Perhaps they should change their name to "Still smaller than other cars"....but that won't fit on a badge :D

Grindintosecond > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:51

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Small sells. Small has to be cheap too and MINI is bloated and fat. The OG mini that sold from the 50's until 2000 was affordable and fun at the same time. It sold. Cant buy a mini now its expensive and premium. Id rather have a fiesta for the money...more fun.

Its better to buy an old one and enjoy fixing it up and DD it after. Its reliable.

macanamera > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:51

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People have no problem snapping up panameras and cayennes like they are going out of style, so I'm not sure the whole brand identity thing is that valid of an argument anymore.

Thrasher Chad > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:51

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The issue here is pricepoint. Mini WAS an affordable, efficient, city car only marketed in countries that... had a market for those cars. However, Mini is now a cost prohibitive, undersized, and underperforming novelty.

Whilst the Mini is still small and moderately good at what it does, the Golf still does what the original did... carry crap and people efficiently with decent build quality for a 'small car', which by comparison it still is.

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:51

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I never quite understand the logic behind this, either. Look at e.eg how much bigger the latest Fiesta over the first two generations of the Escort, the model the Fiesta was one class below once. One can say that we do need larger cars in general, but it isn't entirely true either, because (in this example) enter the Ka. Geneally speaking, the Focus is the new Mondeo hatchback, the Fiesta is the new Focus/Escort and the Ka is the new Fiesta.

JR1 > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:51

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The main problem with Mini is they stopped producing it, everyone remembered the classic and everyone loves it. So when the new Mini emerged its biggest problem was nostalgia for the classic Mini. Nostalgia is almost impossible to overcome.

Jayhawk Jake > Jagvar 03/07/2014 at 09:52

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This is what I was thinking. It's called a Mini, it shouldn't be big. After all that was the defining feature of the mini: it's a tiny car. The Golf's defining feature wasn't it being small.

macanamera > Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif 03/07/2014 at 09:52

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But people like TNG as much as, if not more than, the old joints.

gt6xxer > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:52

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Why is it called a Mini when its large? Why is it called a Hummer when it doesn't lick my scrotum?

Semantics aside, I dislike newer Minis because they lost their original charm. The Jetta just is what it is. I don't care how they evolve it. BMW took away a solid enthusiast car because more people aren't enthusiasts.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:53

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Put me down as a strong (and outspoken)naysayer to the Golf getting larger as well - and most other cars to a lesser degree unless full-size. SAY NO TO LARD. Oddly, a full-size becoming heavier I care significantly less about.

The Mini just counts as a special insult because of the name and reason for its heritage.

GhostZ > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:53

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The VW Golf wasn't the only car they made, and it only was around for a few years before being updated.

The Mini was sold basically unchanged for 40 years. So you have THAT MUCH MORE repetition crammed into people's heads that you're trying to change with a new Model.

Now, when VW introduced the Golf to replace the Beetle stateside, I'm sure people said "Why is the Mustang able to evolve but not the Beetle!"

Tom McParland > gt6xxer 03/07/2014 at 09:53

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LOL!

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:53

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Yeah, at least not a fashionable one... And how long until a lawyer picks an older model Mini to claim that Mini's badges are misleading and force them to crush their cars until they're in fact smaller?

Yeah, I'm looking at you Chrysler.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > MonkeePuzzle 03/07/2014 at 09:54

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There's little doubt Sir Alec Issigonis was a designer ahead of his time. Intelligent, even.

/Trolling

MooseKnuckles > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:54

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Look at me evolve!

RazoE > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:54

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The golf was always supposed to be a cheap little car that wasn't so bad. The mini cooper was supposed to be MINI. It's no longer mini, while the golf is still a cheap little car that's pretty good.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:56

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I always contended they stabbed themselves in the back long-term by not offering a bit of a spread in vision - coming back as "BMC Mini" or some such. Less of an absolute tie-down to a single model and its lumpy children.

KirkyV > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:56

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For me, it's largely to do with intent. The original Mini was an exercise in packaging efficiency, that just so happened to have near-perfect driving dynamics. It was an incredibly practical, and yet incredibly fun, tiny little car, that didn't cost that much money.

The new MINIs, from the very first One/Cooper in 2001 have, well, not been that. They're plenty fun, by and large, but for their size they ought to have a lot more interior space than they do. Obviously, modern safety regulations mean that there's no way they could be quite as efficient as the original, but the simple fact is that a lot of their smaller contemporary competition offer far more interior space and versatility than the MINIs.

Tom McParland > MooseKnuckles 03/07/2014 at 09:56

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Exactly... :D

Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif > macanamera 03/07/2014 at 09:57

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But more people will know Kirk and Spock than any other characters

puddler > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:58

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i would want an original mini that has been moderized with better suspension & tires beause of how small, light, and nimble they were. new mini's are no such thing unless you're comparing them to a v12 merc. & i don't want anything to do with them as such. like a shark, there's no need to fix whats not broken.

and don't get me started on safety standards...driving is so safe people don't even pay attention anymore. you should have to earn an airbag deployment.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:58

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My question (for me, not necessarily you guys) is why do I like the 911, even though it is changing slower than the ice age...

...but I'm getting painfully bored with Aston Martin because the only way to tell the cars apart is with a tape measure?

Pixel > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 09:59

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My personal problem with Mini is that the original mini was an effort to pack maximum people & space into the smallest vehicle possible. The modern mini is a packaging nightmare inside, with an intrusive console, rear seats that fit only 2, dashboards that are funky for the sake of funky while functionality is locked in a closet down the hall.

If a Mini was a bit bigger, but offered a lot more space inside due to clever packaging, I would have no problem with them. However the cars keep growing bigger, while the interiors just get more silly.

macanamera > Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif 03/07/2014 at 09:59

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You are def right about that.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > Party-vi 03/07/2014 at 10:00

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There, there...

ryjacobs > Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif 03/07/2014 at 10:00

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Time to play some Pokemon Yellow!

duurtlang > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) 03/07/2014 at 10:01

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... the Mondeo is the new Scorpio and the old Scorpio is dead because it became too big. You saw the same thing at Opel where the Senator and later the Omega died because they'd gotten too big. It's a natural cycle. Without large changes in the market I think the Mondeo has 1-2 generations left before it too will be discontinued without replacement, although there might be a new model introduced below the future Ka at that time.

Just wear your damn mask... > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:02

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The problem isn't really evolution. Evolution is what you see from Car 2 to Car 4 in this image. The problem is that they attempted to resurrect the name and spirit of Car 1, which had been out of production for a couple decades. The same argument can be had for the Beetle; the current Beetle is an evolution of the New Beetle, but neither have anything to do with the original Type 1 that they stopped selling in most of the world by the late 70's. Same with the Camaro. Same with the Dart...

Contrast this with the Porsche 911, which is evolutionary, as is the Corvette. Yes, the current one is much larger, more capable and more expensive than the original, but there has been no break in the line.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:05

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There's not a group of people in automotive fandom that I find more deluded and unreasonable than those who bitch about the current state of Mini. Two works: get fucked.

KirkyV > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 03/07/2014 at 10:05

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No, it hasn't. The original Mini was about as far away from niche as you could get in the UK/Europe.

chute13 > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:05

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Really simple, identity. If a car has no identity it doesn't matter name you slap on it.

Mojonaut > macanamera 03/07/2014 at 10:06

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As a Star Trek fan who grew up on the Next Generation, there are die-hards out there who still prefer TOS. And I'd say they outnumber the TNG die-hards. But this is the problem with me coming onto Jalopnik and talking about Star Trek. Once I start I can't shut up, so I'm out!

kanadanmajava > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:07

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I'm not totally ok with Golf Mk VII or new Mini. First ones were good enough.

I have driven 10 000 kilometers with a Golf VII with a diesel engine and DSG gearbox. It stays on the road and isn't terrible to drive. But it has annoying features that Golf MkI didn't have. Electric handbrake is silly and it engages if you try to reverse with a drivers door open (it doesn't care about other doors are open). If the start-stop system hasn't been disengaged and you open the driver's door then the engine has stopped the car requires to turn the vehicle of before it will start the engine. At this point it will of course disengage the bluetooth connection (from a music player) and the reconnection start again.

The Golf also doesn't like to play from all USB memory sticks. With some the player crashes after couple of songs. Also if I play music from my mobile phones bluetooth connection the volume steps up couple of "clicks" after each song.

Keyless entry is pretty nice but when you are washing the car with the "key" in your pocket the car will constantly unlock and lock when the washing device approaches certain areas.

I think I would pick a MkI over the new models as that car wouldn't annoy me with silly functionality problems that would have been easy to avoid.

jariten1781 > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:07

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MINI is more akin to the 'New Beetle' than the Golf. In most enthusiasts minds it was an update to a unique classic vehicle. The first run of the new MINI did a decent job of modernizing the concept (though even then there were grumbles that it wasn't mini enough). They don't want to see the cherished nameplate whored out to an entire line. It's special to them.

The New Beetle had the same sort of goal. There was lots of people up in arms about that design. Too big, too girly, not air cooled, engine in the wrong spot, etc. Think about the deafening internet screams if they made a Beetle SUV or a Beetle wagon.

Personally, I just like small, tight, sporty hatches. If BMW makes a good one and badges it a MINI then it goes on the list. I couldn't care less if the other cars on the lot are badged MINI or if they had just called them something like the 'Austin Countryman' or the 'Rover Clubman'.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > KirkyV 03/07/2014 at 10:10

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That's not how they're viewed in modern America. In modern America it's "small car with go-kart dynamics".

.Lone > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 03/07/2014 at 10:10

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"Deluded and unreasonable" pretty much describes the whole internet car enthusiast community at this point.

shawnbaden > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:10

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TLDR; Kill the Paceman, Roadster, Coupe, and Clubman. Keep the Cooper, Convertible, and Countryman.

MINI has too many models, period. The Paceman, Roadster, and Coupe were cool when they were introduced as concepts but they should have stayed just that. The Clubman is irrelevant with the advent of the Countryman.

MINI has created a terrible buyer's experience with the paradox of choice. When a buyer walks into a MINI dealership they want a MINI. Then they are treated to an onslaught of models that are _very_ similar. "I just want a frakin' MINI!"

The other problem is 'MINI' is a model. MINI doesn't have a lineup they have variants on the same model. The Countryman is the only one that is obviously a MINI but also something else.

Make it easy for buyer's to say yes and get the thing they want, a damn MINI (which is a Cooper).

Rocketred > Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius 03/07/2014 at 10:10

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The answer is that the 911 shape is sui generis. The Aston shape is not. If you slap the grille on, say, a Mustang, the unitiated may have to wonder for a moment. Whenever I see a Tesla, a huge 4-door car, I have to look hard sometimes to see if its not an AM. The long hood short deck thing is not a thing in itself. The grille is on a Ford Fiesta now. With the 911, everybody knows exactly what car that is. Also, Aston has not been developing the composition, the proportion, unlike the 911. The Astons are all, as you say, just different sizes. Today, the 911 looks more like a modern racing prototype, than a funky little run about from the 60s. It has a totally different signature of proportion and stance from even the 90s models. Maybe if Aston started over and went back to the original db9 shape, instead of the modern wedge shape, it would gain a basic character that sets it off from a Corevette or a Maserati Gran Tourismo.

Anon > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:10

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I will say that the first gen BMW Mini does have really stiff suspension! Seriously if sport suspension is as rough as the first gen, try it out on a 3 hour car ride before you check that option box.

Also as one of the few people on this website that actually OWN a Mini, I like the look of the new mini! Also they seem to have fixed every issue that I've had with it, with this third generation. I like the interior much better, they FINALLY added lumbar support, supposedly the interior dosen't rattle like a coke can anymore, they put a better gear box, gave the NA a sixth speed (no more driving at 70 mph at 4k!), added more noise insulation, softened the clutch they pulled from an 80's Lamborghini, Lightening the steering so that you don't have to be an olympic weight lifter to steer with one hand, and above all else they added a telescoping steering column! Seriously, no one seems to understand how bad it is to have abnormally long legs with shorter than normal legs. If I had to pick another car to buy today for under 30k, I would look very seriously at the new Mini.

(P.S. I know that was the longest run-on in the history of run-ons, please don't release the fury of English upon me.)

StalePhish > JR1 03/07/2014 at 10:13

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Mostly an American problem because Mini never actually stopped producing. Production started in 1959 and is still going today. They just stopped selling in the US in (I think) the 1970s because it was too short or not safe enough, or something silly like that.

It would have been absolutely epic if Mini had created an updated version of the "classic" Mini to meet American safety and emission standards and sold it under the "Mini Classic" name, and then had the regular old new Mini as a separate model line.

Here is a 2000 model year Mini. I think we can all agree that it still looked fantastic after 40 years of production with barely any design changes. And even now, 55 years after its introduction, it still looks wonderful even if the headlights and fender flares are a little dated.

philipilihp > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:13

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I actually love that new clubman concept. I'm a little disappointed they added a rear door on the driver side, but I do understand why. It just makes it that little bit more accesible.

But the proportions are there, it has plenty of usable space without losing its nimbleness, and looks super sleek.

One issue, and this draws a little bit on Jagvar's point of the name handicapping the brand, is that it's hard to follow a car that has been built for roughly 40 years with minimal evolution (none of which included the size). I think rather than comparing it to the Golf, which has seen steady evolution every five or so years, the MINI's story is much more similar to the Beetle, which also had only the slightest of modifications for about 50 years until the late '90s, when VW released the New Beetle, radically different. In the same way MINI sales have dropped off, I think the same goes for the New Beetle. The second gen of that one doesn't seem to be selling that well (judging from personal sightings in the wild). Both MINI and Beetle benefited from initial enthusiasm, but after that novelty has subsided, fans go back to nostalgia for the original.

VW at least benefits from having a range of other established models, while MINI had to artificially diversify it's Cooper platform.

AlanT > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:14

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2002 Cooper S owner here. When MINI first came out, the styling was cool. However, it was really the promised handling and innovation that lead to me putting $ down for the S without seeing one. Also, the price was not terrible. $22.5 for a decently loaded model. There was not much at the time that could compete at that price, features, and performance. Now, MINI has serious competition.

At the time, 6 airbags was not the norm. Electronic brake distribution was not the norm. The big open sunroof was not the norm. The R&T slalom speed near a 911 was not the norm. Now, the styling is crap. Why do MINI designers insist on making the tail lights bigger with each new model??? Why do they insist on panels that look stuck on the bumpers??? VW Golf has the cleanest front and rear designs around and look great. Yes, you get a few innovations with the new model like heads up display, but dayamn, you are going to pay dearly for them. Pricewise, try and get one with decent options for less than 30k. I would like to see the handling return to the R53 but I doubt it. MINI had to soften the shocks for poor American tail ends right after my car was built. too bad...next car will probably not be a MINI.

Mojonaut > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 03/07/2014 at 10:15

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I disagree. The original Mini's remit was to be a small, practical car for not a lot of money that would make car ownership accessible for the masses. It was, in effect, Britain's answer to the VW Beetle. It was originally about being ANTI-niche. The fact it was a lot of fun to drive and capable of beating cars that, on paper, should wipe the floor with it when it came to rallying was an added bonus, but certainly not a niche.

I'd also argue the new MINI is still not a niche car. At least, not in Europe, where cars of it's size are a lot more commonplace than in the US. In some ways, it defined the small luxury (semi-expensive-for-it's-size) segment, which usually consists more of cars as a fashion accessory as it's main purpose. It just happened to be fun to drive, as well.

frogberg > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:16

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Well said! I'm going to bookmark this and link to anytime someone regurgitates the "ZOMG, Mini should be small and stuff and stop being pretentious by spelling their name with all caps!" line.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Mojonaut 03/07/2014 at 10:16

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I mean that's great, but Europeans probably aren't the ones complaining about the growth in size. The article talks about how they're viewed over here and the double standard. In America, it is, in fact, a niche vehicle.

Mojonaut > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura 03/07/2014 at 10:17

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They don't hold up well to being in an accident. Or being reversed off a medium-sized kerb.

Pdexter > Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius 03/07/2014 at 10:19

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I have been having similar thoughts. Aston to me is that childhood brand to work towards, but it really has been losing part of that magic these past years for me.

Now out of uni and actually putting some cash down for a bit more expensive metal, I have found huge respect for Porsche and Golf. Actually looking to get either Golf R or used Cayman. Golf would have seemed crazy for the price to me just ~3 years ago.

Why isn't Aston then impressing me more as it has certainly stayed just as classy as Porsche or Golf? I have no idea.

JR1 > StalePhish 03/07/2014 at 10:19

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Since it never had to evolve it still carried the nostalgia from the 60s and 70s so it's understandable people where mad when they thought of building a new one.

CJinOB > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:19

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"People bought them because they were 'cute and fun' but after a year, reality set in and a lot of people traded them because they were 'too stiff and too small."

My then-gf was an early Mini Cooper adopter in 2003. The car's dimensions and ride quality was never an issue, but the frequent(REALLY FREQUENT) dealer trips to a dealer 70 miles away ruined the ownership experience in less than two years. Considering that Mini anchored most quality indices up until Ford got serious about making really awful cars two years ago, that is as likely to be the real reason that so many of them get dumped by their first owners as any quality that can be judged on a test drive.

As for big, fat, Minis that handle like Buicks; that's some sort of psychological issue. Buyers want to be something they're not and that they don't even the character to try to be.

ament001 > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:21

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The issue is undermining your defining feature. Its feature is in it's name, mini. When you grow your models so big that they are the size of regular cars, they are eliminating the feature that made them desirable. Its like evolving a Mustang into a front-wheel drive car. That would erase one of it's defining features.

nafsucof > Jagvar 03/07/2014 at 10:21

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Should have been the cooper mini.

oldirtybootz > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:21

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I don't know why people are so up in arms about a 4-doot Cooper. It seems perfectly logical and will get more people into the car( a la Wrangler Unlimited.)

Mojonaut > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 03/07/2014 at 10:21

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But Europeans ARE talking about the growth in size. A lot of times, people in Europe buy small cars because they HAVE to. The lion's share of European cities were built without the automobile in mind. As you saw in a recent episode of Top Gear, small is good when it comes to negotiating the streets of your average European town or city.

You could argue that, in America, anything that's small is considered a niche vehicle. The MINI manages to be small without being small.

nafsucof > nafsucof 03/07/2014 at 10:21

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And cooper clubman sounds fine!!

ScreenShot > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:23

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We're not ok with it because there is only one mini in our hearts...the one we imagine when we hear the name. If it's going to be another form, it might as well carry another name - they can't have it both ways if they expect to leverage our loyalties.

maximum_sarge > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:23

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Because it's like a size 18 and it's got 'size 0' on it's profile.

I would be fine with them making larger cars if they would at least still offer one truly small 'mini' city car. For them, THAT should be their halo car.

KirkyV > Mojonaut 03/07/2014 at 10:24

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I wouldn't necessarily agree that the MINI manages to be small without being small - they're far too cramped inside for their size - but I agree with everything else.

Anon > puddler 03/07/2014 at 10:24

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There actually is a company that does that, though I can't remember their name at the moment.

Also have you driven a new mini?

mtdrift > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:24

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THANK YOU Automatch.

I've been hammering on this issue for a while now.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Mojonaut > KirkyV 03/07/2014 at 10:24

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That's exactly the point I was trying to make ;)

KirkyV > Mojonaut 03/07/2014 at 10:25

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Well, now I'm confuzzled.

puddler > Anon 03/07/2014 at 10:26

2

yea, but i couldn't hoon it. it was full of old people after church.

Mojonaut > KirkyV 03/07/2014 at 10:27

0

It's small without being small. As in, small on the inside without being small on the outside. Like the anti-TARDIS

ksmay71 > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:28

0

Good points, great discussion. Thanks Tom.

KirkyV > Mojonaut 03/07/2014 at 10:29

0

OH! I thought you were trying to say the exact opposite. Well, so much for my A-level, and - hopefully, at least - eventual degree in English Literature.

Kate's Dirty Sister > puddler 03/07/2014 at 10:29

0

Just buy a used one then.

KirkyV > Mojonaut 03/07/2014 at 10:30

1

I'm with you Picard>Kirk, TNG>TOS and pretty much everything else, any day of the week.

Anon > puddler 03/07/2014 at 10:30

2

Then don't give the handling crap, especially when you had it full of people, that's almost 700 pounds added to the weight. I can assure you my 2006 is plenty spritely and fun to drive. It's not good at too much, but it is fun to drive.

ncarlucci10 > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:32

0

Some cars are not allowed to evolve, because heritage.

puddler > Anon 03/07/2014 at 10:32

0

no doubt, but it's not a 3/4 ton slotcar.

Kate's Dirty Sister > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:32

1

Mini is totally allowed to evolve, they do, and it's working pretty well.

Saying that they are not and should not be allowed to evolve is giving way to much importance to some commentators on this comedic website.

Jim is one of KFCs secret ingredients > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:33

0

Its because the origninal Mini was sold too long in it's original form. That seems to hamper any acceptance of evolution. Some other models that suffer from that:

VW Beetle, Jeep Cherokee, Jeep Wrangler, Fiat 500. There's more I'm sure.

Squid > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:33

0

My mom has a Clubman base car, I really like it. It is just enough bigger than the hatch so that there is space in the rear seat and a somewhat usable cargo area. My sister also ended up buying a S convertible last summer. Both are fun cars but there are immediate tradeoffs when you buy a small car. People are idiotic to want a cheaper car but in return bitch about the car being too small thus forcing the manufacturer to bump the car up in size. Really you can't win in the car business, you are going to piss someone off. I don't think I'd consider one of these newer larger maxi Minis but I dunno.

Levitas > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:37

2

I think its less the physical size of the MINI and more the looks of the MINI. MINI owners that I know would love a tad more space in the boot or a more comfortable ride while cruising. But what kills me, and many MINI enthusiasts alike, is the way MINI has gone about making it bigger. The new headlights absolutely kill it for me; they are so stretched and wrapped around the MINI 'head' all you can possibly see is a bloated car. Keep the new body style and bring the headlights closer to vertical, and suddenly you have a modern MINI that maintains the classic Mini look.

Rocketred > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:37

1

The broader point is that today, people don't sell things, they sell brands, at least to wealthy people in bourgeouis societies. The goal, for the MINI brand, or any other brand, is to divorce it from the product, and to imbue it with more compelling social and psychological power. Why should you try to move a car based on what it does, when 100 other cars do the same or similar thing? You move it by saying, this car has a unique meaning to you, the people you want to have sex with and whose opinions you value. Once you develop that meaning, you can start selling stereos and watches and iphone covers and fleeces, much less worry about trying to sell a product that is not like the last one. The comments here that MINI means small is just incorrect. MINI means premium, cosmopolitan, BMW-positive. If it speaks to size, it's the rejection of size as a measure of value, not the rejection of size per se. This marketing has been very effective. Observe the rage of MINI owners when you spell it "Mini," as if you referred to the founding fathers without initial caps.

472CID > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:38

1

Because someone is pressing "B"

Klaus Schmoll > duurtlang 03/07/2014 at 10:39

1

Interesting theory! I just went on to Ford's German website and the Mondeo isn't even on the initial picture of their passenger vehicle lineup. You have click past cars like the Focus Electric and the passenger version of the Transit Connect to get to the Mondeo. And yes, they are still selling the old one, no idea when they will switch to the new platform that has been on sale in the US for quite a while now. Maybe that is because they don't sell that well? When the Mondeo replaced the Sierra these things were everywhere, they even coined the phrase "Mondeo Man" in the UK, but come to think of it, I'm seeing less and less of the newer generations.

Slothkins > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:40

1

Damn. That's the first time I've seen a picture of the new Sportwagen. That is a very nice looking car.

Zeniff > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:43

1

I'm going to say this with tongue in cheek, but there probably is some truth to this:

1. All the girls (let's admit it, they were a lot of them) that bought the '1st gen' Mini moved on. They were never enthusiasts, they were just the flash-in-the pan folks. They're not coming back.

2. Mini enthusiasts likely make a much larger portion of the market today because the teeny-bopper girls moved on. The enthusiasts hold Mini to its purest form, which means only incremental changes, or you face the wrath of enthusiasts.

3. Cars like the Golf can evolve more drastically because it was never about being diminutive in size (not in the same sense the Mini was) and it's popularity was/is probably more sustained — not as hot as the Mini ever was at its peak, but probably more sustainable popularity over time. So the VW Golf never had a point where 80% of drivers were flash-in-the-pan types.

duurtlang > Klaus Schmoll 03/07/2014 at 10:47

0

My degree is in Biology, I'm trained in noticing these evolutionary generational changes ;)

Anyway, remember the conversation we had 2-3 days ago? I used your, very helpful, input in a mail shortly after. The guy never answered back. It's a shame really, the car seemed almost perfect on the pictures. These things are quite rare so it's hard to just find another one. What kind of second hand sites do you use in Germany? Mobile.de, autoscout24.de, ebaykleinanzeigen, anything else?

Scott > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:47

1

As a fan of small cars my issue is with the term "evolve" meaning get bigger every year. Why do so many cars start small and keep getting bigger?

The Transporter > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:48

1

It's not the exact same people, but it's the same type of personality that got bent out of shape that the new Mustang lacks a solid axle or doesn't look "Mustang enough." It also has to do with the old fable of how to boil a frog. With designs like the Golf and the 911, the change was very very slow and gradual. The Mini was essentially a dead marquee that BMW brought back because retro was in 10 years ago. Like the Mustang, it was a very distinctive car that defined the '60s as much as the '60s defined it.

There is also an almost unhealthy level of nostalgia around both cars.

Because there were no interim years of gradual evolution, the modern growth of the Mini seems to be more shocking and thus the backlash. Conversely, even though there was never a break in the Mustang line, because Ford decided to make the 5th generation look more retro, it tapped into the same nostalgia that the Mini does. Despite the fact that the weight of the new Mustang had ballooned to Gran Torino proportions while the original weighted about as much as a current Miata, no other car was "Mustang enough" save the first generation.

The reality was that the original Mustang was meant to be a light and fun sports car built with whatever was in the parts bin to make it cheap. It wasn't meant to be the heavy torquemoster that the modern ideal of a Mustang has evolved into. Likewise, the Mini was meant to be a small and economical city car that coincidentally happened to look good be very fun to drive.

Small and economical was what the market demanded at the time and it was as small as the handful of safety regulations allowed. With all of the safety regulations that exist today it's simply impossible to build a car as small as the original Mini that can also seat four people as comfortably as modern car buyers demand.

Kate's Dirty Sister > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 03/07/2014 at 10:48

2

If any automaker was to follow internet car enthusiasts advice, they would go bankrupt fairly quickly.

RW53104 > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:49

1

MINIs are still smaller than essentially everything they compete with. Size is relative, yo.

RX > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:52

0

I think the issue is that the mini was the same car for 40 years. Then all of a sudden, BAM, huge step. We like our evolution to be gradual. Imagine if BMW made the E30 for 30 years than all of a sudden came out with the F30. A foot longer, half ton heavier and an interior bigger than the original 7. Angry mobs would invade Munich from all directions.

KamikazePigeon > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 10:55

0

I think it's far simpler than evolution. I was one of the people that screamed blasphemy at the MINI increasing its size in recent years. However, once you accept that a MINI is not a Mini, you do feel a lot better.

Don't compare the MINI to the Mini. The new MINIs may look like a modern Minis, but remember, they're just fun FWD BMWs to put it simply.

I really like them, although I'd probably never buy one new.

Pdexter > Grindintosecond 03/07/2014 at 10:55

0

Though I would not say that small needs to be cheap to sell. If that was the case Mercedes would not need to get 3rd factory up to meet the demand for the new A class that starts from 41 540 dollars in here, neither would the streets be filled by Golf GTI's and 1 series. Not that Golf really is that cheap for small car while it is the most sold in Europe year after year.

But yeah both Mini and Beetle have long gone past the novelty and need to bring something else to the table. I somehow can't see that happening.

Klaus Schmoll > duurtlang 03/07/2014 at 10:55

0

I personally only use mobile.de and auroscout24.de. Autoscout is free so you will find more cars for sale by a private owner. Dealerships tend to pay the small fee and have their cars on mobile.de, or both.

Kate's Dirty Sister > Jagvar 03/07/2014 at 11:01

1

This is like saying Volkswagen shouldn't make any expensive cars because of Volkswagen mean people's car. Scratch everything above 20K.

Restricted by its name.

I don't think this is how most people that buys them see it. It's mostly some armchair specialists, that wouldn't buy one anyway, trying to enforce their vision of what the car industry should be.

Kmccauley > Tom McParland 03/07/2014 at 11:03

1

Great question and discussion!

1. The execution of the Countryman bothers me more than the idea of a Countryman-sized MINI.

2. MINI builds the Clubman. MINI builds the Countryman. I can accept that. Therefore, enlarging the standard MINI Cooper seems completely unnecessary. Unless this newest generation is an admission that the Countryman/Clubman expansion strategy was wrong, and they found that people want a Larger MINI, not a larger, disfigured MINI-like vehicle. Perhaps that's what we're seeing.

[Numbering stops inexplicably] I'm all for evolution, but expanding a lineup to two more larger vehicles AND making the core MINI Cooper 6-8" or whatever bigger rubs a lot of people the wrong way, especially since there are hundreds of thousands of owners who were happy with the size of their pre-2014 MINIs.

Perhaps BMW/MINI has to accept that there are only a certain number of people who will buy a MINI, and they should expand buy targeting the next, younger generation to want to own MINI Coopers instead of building everything for everyone and seeing what sticks.

mountain_runner > jariten1781 03/07/2014 at 11:07

0

You said what I was ready to say. I think BMW should have used one of the other BMC heritage names for the Countryman and other non 2 door small hatchbacks, and kept the name MINI for non mini cars. It's kind of self explanatory why a premium small crossover should not have a name like "MINI Cooper Countryman John Cooper Works S All4", or whatever order it's in.

If I were a member Quandt family, or whoever makes the decisions for BMW, I would make their British-like division like the following:

Austin Countryman (compact SUV), Austin Dolomite (4 door cars), Austin MINI Cooper (2 door Hatch), Austin MINI Clubman (shooting brake), and Triumph (BWW's Miata competitor sports car).

The cars themselves in the MINI lineup are not that bad, they are just badged, positioned and marketed poorly. Upgrading the reliability would not hurt either.