Proof that Putin is lying about Russian Involvement in Ukraine

"willkinton247" (willkinton247) 03/04/2014 at 14:03 • Filed to: Ukraine, News, Crimea, Russia, Special Forces

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Putin !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! reporters earlier today that the heavily armed men who took over Ukrainian military and political institutions in Crimea are not Russian soldiers, but rather local self-defense forces. This one picture proves that he is full of crap (as if we didn't already know that):

This is a picture of one of the "unidentified" self-defense soldiers standing in front of the Crimean Parliament Building in Simferopol, Ukraine. See that gun the soldier in the middle is carrying? That is an AS Val.

The AS Val is an integrally suppressed assault rifle, and uses a special subsonic 9x39mm round that is able to penetrate 6mm of steel at 200 meters. This lethal combination of stealth and power makes it an incredibly effective weapon for covert operations such as this one. It is heavily related to the VSS Vintorez sniper rifle that has also been seen in Crimea (see the soldier on the right below).

Most importantly, the AS Val (the Vintorez as well) is used exclusively by Russian Special Forces such as the Spetsnaz, MVD, and FSB and select Russian Army units. It is highly unlikely that a local militia or defense group could obtain an AS Val, because the Russians have keep this special weapon close to their chest; it has not been exported like the AK series of weapons. Sure, you may be able to get uniforms and gear, but no local militia would ever get an AS Val without direct Russian involvement.

In conclusion, those men were definitely Russians. And Putin, the next time you want to pull off a large scale operation like this and peg it on "local defense forces," give your men some weapons that allow for plausible deniability. You're not fooling anyone.

I mean, that's what America does.

Photo Credits: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ; !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ; !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ; !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ; !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ; !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

leicester > willkinton247 03/04/2014 at 14:06

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I thought you were going to say his lips were moving.

But just look at the foxinthehenhouse look he has! Definitely up to no good...

ttyymmnn > willkinton247 03/04/2014 at 14:06

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Putin lying? Stop the presses!

Nibbles > willkinton247 03/04/2014 at 14:06

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I really don't know where to stand on this situation. I've digested as much information as I can find from European, Russian, Ukrainian and US sources, but cannot find a solid statement to sway me any way. There are far too many variables at play here.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > willkinton247 03/04/2014 at 14:07

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Wasn't suspecting him to be a living monument, dedicated to honesty.

Nibby > willkinton247 03/04/2014 at 14:09

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Sir Halffast > Nibbles 03/04/2014 at 14:12

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If there are too many variables, then you're not paying attention. Russia has invaded a sovereign nation, without invitation, and without cause. For all the muddled cases that do exist in international relations, this is NOT one of them.

jariten1781 > willkinton247 03/04/2014 at 14:23

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That's far from proof. That design is old Soviet and there are probably plenty floating around in the eastern bloc countries. A quick google search shows that the Georgian forces were armed with them in the 2008 conflict.

I'm not following this close enough to know if this is a piece of evidence that fits an overall case, but it's certainly not a 'smoking gun' as it were.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Sir Halffast 03/04/2014 at 14:28

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So they're doing like us :)

Sir Halffast > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 03/04/2014 at 14:35

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If you wish, but even if you disagree with the things we've done (and I do with a good bit of it), we've at least TRIED to have a legal basis for doing so, and managed to get several other major countries to agree with our rationale and join us. This however is the definition of unilateral action without cognizable cause for action. He's fooling no one, and he knows it. Local militia suddenly have access to regiments of Russian BMPs that the local Ukrainian authorities never noticed? Go fuck yourself with a tank barrel if you actually believe that.

The Transporter > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 03/04/2014 at 14:38

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Bush got approval from the UN to invade Iraq. Everyone conveniently forgets this.

Nibbles > Sir Halffast 03/04/2014 at 14:40

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Or maybe I'm paying too much attention.

Like I said, I've been surrounding myself with reports on this subject. By surrounding, I mean each waking hour of the last four days has been spent on it. Each article, each report, from each region, seems to say something just so minutely different that it renders itself insincere.

Obviously each is going to have their own spin on it. Russia claims they're in the clear - for the most part - and are doing this on a strictly humanitarian basis. This isn't true. Even though they have requests for support from ex-President Yanukovich, and current [debated] PM Aksyonov, that doesn't stand for much. They are, however, keeping strictly to Crimea and are relatively non-confrontational - something unexpected from Russia. If they are there to defend their brethren in Crimea, they are doing just that.

Ukraine states that it is an aggression; an act of war. It's pretty clear why they feel that way, and they have absolute right to. With their government in shambles, and each side trying to pull strings, they're definitely in a compromising position. They have abolished their law on languages of minorities, no doubt pissing off the Russian [speaking] population, primarily residing in Crimea. The Russians have fortified their positions around Sevastopol but have gone no further. America and the EU have both promised loans (the reasoning behind which bothers me) as a treat if Ukraine comes their way.

There's also large discrepancies on the numbers of troops moved/stationed in and around Sevastopol. Obviously that in itself is a spin of either side but the variation (10,000) is rather large and, to me, unbelievable on either side

Russia may be bulking up in order to stave off a threat - real or imagined. Ukraine's political uncertainty could be causing duress between West- and East-leaning populaces. Both Ukraine's and Crimea's interim governance is called unconstitutional by both sides. [I'm certain I will come up with more, just ending this post for now]

willkinton247 > jariten1781 03/04/2014 at 14:42

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Yes, but it entered service at the very end of the Soviet Union, and it was never a mass issued item. It has only ever been issued to special forces and high level intelligence agencies. Furthermore, it uses an expensive, hard to source round, and because Russia hasn't widely distributed it, it makes a terrible option for a local Self Defense Force.

Also, the only countries that have been confirmed as users since that point are Russia, Georgia and Cuba.

Sir Halffast > Nibbles 03/04/2014 at 14:49

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Let me put it to you this way then. Russia invading Crimea has absolutely nothing to do with Maidan in Kyiv. Putin's been eyeing Crimea for over a decade, and finally saw an opportunity to get it. There's nothing for them to "defend" their brethren in Crimea from. There have been no threats made by the local Ukrainian population, nor by the Tatar population (who I might add REALLY hate Russia). If anyone in Crimea were looking to have independence, it would be the Tatars, and they want their own state. They certainly, unequivocally, want nothing to do with Russia after what the Soviet Union did to them decades ago. Also, the ethnic Russians do not mostly reside in Crimea, but in the Donbass, where Russia has not invaded (yet). Long story short, however - the idea of getting Crimea back under Moscow has given Putin wet dreams for at least a decade. He saw an opportunity, and he took it.

Nibbles > Sir Halffast 03/04/2014 at 15:10

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Points well digested, thanks. Nobody has said anything about the Tatars, other than them not taking any aggression against the Russian troops stationed. I did not know about the Donbass. I'm learning a crapton at a very fast rate (as stated before) and have only had the current reports to go off of. I will research more on these avenues, thanks :)

What are your thoughts on the Crimean "elected" PM, Sergey Aksyonov, his pro-Russian stance and the possible upcoming referendum to grant further autonomy from Ukraine? Also, where are you from? I'm literally frothing at the mouth over this situation and I have no bloody idea why - but I need to know more

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > The Transporter 03/04/2014 at 15:18

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Under ultimately false pretenses. I know Dubya got approval

The Transporter > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 03/04/2014 at 15:37

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But he got approval, nonetheless.

It's a "Porch-uh" > willkinton247 03/04/2014 at 15:41

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Just heard Steve Forbes talk briefly on the subject this morning (it was really cool!). He equated this move to Russia's involvement in Afghanistan in the 70s, which he argued helped bring about the fall of the Soviet Union. So if this isn't resolved quickly and quietly, it's going to be bad for Russia.

It's a "Porch-uh" > It's a "Porch-uh" 03/04/2014 at 15:42

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Speaking of Forbes...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsate…

Roberto G. > Sir Halffast 03/04/2014 at 15:51

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You're wrong: there is a cause, for Russia.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > The Transporter 03/04/2014 at 16:01

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So did Putin at least from his legislators

Sir Halffast > Roberto G. 03/04/2014 at 16:08

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But their internal reasoning conforms to absolutely zero internationally accepted legal standards. Therefore, it is arbitrary, capricious, and illegal. Murderers have motive, but we don't give them a pass just because they had a "reason."

The Transporter > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 03/04/2014 at 16:10

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From what? The Russian Assembly? He only keeps that thing around to pretend like Russia is still a representative democracy. I'm surprised he hasn't had it burnt down so he could blame it on gays.

Roberto G. > Sir Halffast 03/04/2014 at 16:19

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I agreed with you, of course. I didn't say it was a good cause!

Klaus Schmoll > willkinton247 03/04/2014 at 16:23

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Everybody knows that these are Russian special forces. It doesn't need a specific gun to prove that (plates on their vehicles, a notepad that said "Russian Foreign Ministry" and so on and so forth. I can't understand why he is lying about it.

I can howether understand the twisted logic that made him do it. The new provisional government of the Ukraine made a lot of severe mistakes during their first days in power. a.) They teamed up with right-wing Neo-Nazis. People whose goal it is to get rid of all ethnic Russians are now part of the new cabinet. b.) They allowed these Neo-Nazis to push through a bill that cancels Russian as a second official language in those parts where the ethnic Rusiians are a majority. Thereby making them fear for what's next to come and offering Putin an open invitation to "protect" them.

He did in fact invade a souvereign country. There is no point denying that. But we were all quite naive in believing that he would let the Ukraine slip out of his control. In the case of the Crimean peninsula, he simply can't let that happen.

He should have used other means to prevent this, but that's not how he rolls! He was practically invited. In other crises, the West has shown a terrible picture. Obama has shown that he doesn't want to play "world police" anymore, and the EU is laughable at best. Too many states with too many different opinions unable to speak with one voice. They are too preoccupied with other stuff right now, so it takes them ages to come up with only the tiniest of resolutions. The UN? Russia is a veto power there. The NATO? Ukraine isn't a member, and now won't be for decades thanks to his little stunt.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > The Transporter 03/04/2014 at 19:57

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captain_spleen > It's a "Porch-uh" 03/10/2014 at 06:15

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I think it's more like the US's invasion of Panama.

captain_spleen > Klaus Schmoll 03/10/2014 at 06:18

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"They teamed up with right-wing Neo-Nazis."

They were already in Parliament before the revolution. And Russia has plenty of neo-Nazis of their own, who Putin doesn't particularly care about controlling. Russian Nazis have been beating and killing immigrants and non-"pure" Russians for a while now.

Klaus Schmoll > captain_spleen 03/10/2014 at 07:38

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That's absolutely true. Russia has a problem there as well.

It's just that the new Ukranian government made them ministers in their cabinet and they then tried to pass this stupid "no russian as a second language" law that sparked a lot of this.