Jalopnik vs. TTAC: A False Debate?

"WhatDaFunk" (WhatDaFunk) 03/02/2014 at 14:49 • Filed to: None

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Jalopnik and The Truth About Cars are the only two automotive sites I read on an almost daily basis. I think they complement each other rather well: Jalopnik has (in general) shorter form articles with a light hearted and fun slant, and posts more content. TTAC (also, in general) has longer, more in-depth articles, has an overall more serious tone, and more "think pieces," but posts less often. But they are both about covering the automotive industry and what it means to be a car enthusiast.

The two sites regularly link to each other's articles and mention each other, and the editorial staff seems to enjoy a congenial, professional relationship, with staff members of both sites commenting on the other's site. (I will say though, that I sometimes detect a hint of condescension from the TTAC staff towards Jalopnik).

Another thing that these sites share is a an active and involved user base. In general, I avoid reading comments on the internet, but on both Jalopnik and TTAC the comments are usually a good mix of being funny, informative and thought provoking. This is why I was so struck recently by all the hate towards Jalopnik in the comments section of a recent post on TTAC about Travis' video adventures with Pepsi. ( The link doesn't seem to want to insert here, so I'm putting the link below)

I'm not going to say that everyone on TTAC hates Jalopnik, there were plenty of well reasoned and even handed comments on TTAC regarding Jalopnik, but I was a bit shocked and saddened by all the vitriol directed towards Jalopnik in the comments. Jalopnik seems to be bigger target of hatred than even the UAW or politicians. These are two sites and two communities that should get along, and honestly I think they both offer something of value to the other.

So what do you guys think? Do you read both sites regularly? Do you comment on both sites? Is it just a vocal minority on TTAC that creates an illusion of strife between the two sites or is there really a conflict there? Is my analysis of the two sites way off?

Link to the TTAC article: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Fred (FreddsterExprs) > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 14:54

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I am not a fan of TTAC. The reason is simple: Their website and comment layout is far worse. And if a website I am supposed to read daily is so far behind in the presentation, then there is no way I am following TTAC.

The few articles I read though are quite good.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 14:55

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I used to like TTAC better than Jalopnik, until they became a bunch of drama queens and the quality of their writing brutally decreased.

Victorious Secret > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 14:56

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Look at how TTAC views the average Jalopnik commentor?

Also like a complete fuckwad with no logic. The vitriol exists on both sides, it isn't one sided.

We throw shots at them, they throw shots at us. Though, the only people that are throwing shots and then taking them seriously seem to be the 12 year olds that comment on each site and have no grasp of how real life works.

I think Matts comments over there were honest, TTAC has no problem with being blunt; business as usual.

WhatDaFunk > Fred (FreddsterExprs) 03/02/2014 at 14:58

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Definitely agree with you on the layout of TTAC, it's way behind Jalopnik in terms of readability, usability and visual appeal, but it doesn't stop me from reading their articles.

Michael Ballaban > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 14:59

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I've never actually met anyone from TTAC in person, but I'm sure they're nice guys. And there are very few people that I personally hate, but PATRICK KNOWS WHAT HE DID.

On the other hand, I admire the degree of sleuthing that finally exposed the real story of Travis's ride from one of the commenters. I'm surprised they missed Queen Latifah , though.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

WhatDaFunk > Victorious Secret 03/02/2014 at 15:02

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I feel like I don't see a lot of negative comments on Jalopnik towards TTAC but maybe I'm just missing them. You're probably right, that it's just a a small minority of people who get worked up about it, but they really poison the atmosphere.

I only started reading both sites about a year ago, I get the sense that maybe there was some sort of more pronounced conflict in the past?

Tom McParland > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 15:05

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I don't comment on TTAC but I do read them regularly. Jack has been known to throw some barbs our way, but I think he is trying to be cool here. I respect most of the writers there and always enjoy when Derek stops by for a good debate. I think secretly, he likes commenting here more than there.

Victorious Secret > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 15:11

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More or less.

TTAC guys seem to bash us a lot more when the chance is given though, for whatever reason. I can't recall the last time we gave TTAC some fresh shit over something.

Leadbull > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 15:13

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I feel like most of the stabs Jalopnik commenters take are in retaliation to something Baruth (or formerly, Schmitt) said.

However, Hardibro and the rest of our writers handle those situations with class.

Tom McParland > Michael Ballaban 03/02/2014 at 15:19

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Pretty much all their writers are cool I just think Jack likes to throw a fit every now and then but it seems to be a case of haters gonna hate. I know Doug leaving them to focus more on us bothered Jack big time. But I always enjoy when Derek stops by.

Andrew Seifert > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 15:44

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I read both sites on a daily basis, however I feel more at home commenting in Jalopnik/Oppo. One thing I've noticed is that TTAC tends to have an older readership that likes to wax nostalgia about obsolete cars (Murilee Martin's regular Down on the Junkyard feature is a good example of this).

In my opinion Jalopnik is much better at reviewing new cars and keeping up with industry current events. The two main reasons that I visit TTAC are Murilee's column as mentioned above and Steven Lang's Hammer Time, which gives a fascinating insight into the dealer side of the business.

As for the relationship between the two sites, there's always going to be some sort of rivalry. But it seems fairly civil other than the occasional mild jab in the articles.

Burrito de EJ25 > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 15:55

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I'm not a fan of TTAC. If I wanted to read some a sociopath's right-wing vitriol I'd hang around Fox.

SonorousSpeedJoe > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 15:58

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IIRC, the last time that Jalopnik razzed anyone from TTAC was when they published a piece lamenting the C7 Z06's relative lack of exclusivity compared to the C5 Z06 and C6 Z06. Otherwise, TTAC 's articles usually end up promoted in Jalopnik 's Must Reads, and I like them overall.

It's been a while since I've seen Juan Barnett around here, though.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 17:02

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I'unno. TTAC might be critical about everything and that is something I may commend, there's just one reason that Baruth can GTFAC.

Mercedes-Benz should formally apologize for the W220 and W210. Every customer who purchased a new S-Class or E-Class from those infamously troubled generations should receive a letter in the mail, hand-signed by Dr. Panzer Kampf-Wagen or whoever is running the show nowadays, apologizing for selling them an utter piece of junk. Hundreds of thousands of customers were basically swindled. They thought they were buying a Mercedes-Benz, not a cost-cut half-plastic embarrassment. Make it right. And throw them a little incentive towards the price of a new (and presumably better) Benz, just to make up for the abysmal resale on, say, the 2001 S430."

Baruth, fuck you and everything you stood for. No one needs to bend over for your immature remarks. I hope that this doesn't spin off to your own scandal. Good day.

johncalvinyoung > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 17:40

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Yeah, I read three automotive enthusiast websites regularly: Jalopnik, PistonHeads, and TTAC. Granted, I read Jalopnik first and most often (largely due to the seemingly unlimited stream of content, and the great commenter community). I read PH and TTAC less often, but still regularly—PH is great for British-themed car news (particularly Aston Martin and Jaguar, which are particular loves), TTAC is great for the longer-form editorials. I comment more often at Jalopnik, because I like Kinja (at least, the Kinja-that-was...). There is no need for any of those sites to feel threatened by any of the others...

leathermansouth > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 17:58

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You hit the nail on the head describing the two sites - they are my top 2 sources for car info and really do complement each other well, both stylistically and content wise. No reason at all to even feel an allegiance to one or the other - a real auto enthusiast gets info from various, diverse sources.

promoted by the color red > Victorious Secret 03/02/2014 at 18:37

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The average TTAC comment is along the lines of "SPEED LIMITS AND PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION? DAE THINK OBAMA WANTS TO RAPE OUR WIVES?"

Victorious Secret > promoted by the color red 03/02/2014 at 18:40

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#THANKSOBAMA

I will say this, as I said below, TTAC people are more happy to attack Jalopnik than we are to attack them. They look for a reason to hurl flaming bags of poo.

The only time we do is when...well, I can't recall the last time we actually were in that position.

BlackLab > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 19:07

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Its not surprising to get hate from TTAC. It's amazing you could read that site and not understand their bias. Those guys don't particularly like cars - they like appliances and scoff at places like Jalopnik, or other enthusiasts places like Car and Driver. They actually think they are 'smarter' then the guys at C and D and mock them for their bias.

Maybe you are reading it but not paying attention. Its generally a bunch of US bashing with a mix of consumer reports thrown in.

Sir Halffast > Victorious Secret 03/02/2014 at 22:32

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Don't forget about Baruth's attempts to dox certain Jaloppos on the FP, just because they disagreed with him. The problem isn't with TTAC per se, they do (did?) have Murilee Martin after all, but with Baruth personally.

WhatDaFunk > BlackLab 03/02/2014 at 23:24

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I totally see their bias, but I think it's mainly Jack (who is way better than Bertel) and a vocal minority of the commenters, I can look past them to the good content on TTAC. It's funny, a few months ago I was just about fed-up with TTAC and was going to stop reading that site (due to the aforementioned radical political views and general dickishness) when Doug Demuro responded to a comment I made on his blog about the topic defending TTAC. I gave them a second chance and haven't regretted it.

Even though I often disagree with Jack's opinions, he's a damn good writer and I respect him. The rest of their regular contributors mostly just talk about cars and stay away from the politics, and I just skip over any comment threads that start veering in that direction.

Stef Schrader > WhatDaFunk 03/02/2014 at 23:52

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Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeoot, the TTAC dudes are a blast. I'm pretty sure at least two or three of their writers have been violated by Fluffy Bunny somehow.

Vio.

Lated.

BID. Gotta love Matt popping on to 'splain the piece, anyway.

Hooperdink > WhatDaFunk 03/03/2014 at 07:50

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I started off with TTAC way back in the beginning of time when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and Robert F started TTAC. I enjoyed it from then through Paul Niedermeyer's reign there. Once Bertel took over, the slant changed and seemed to become nastier, and I stopped reading it. I do check in every so often to read some of the current pieces such as Murilee's junkyard stories and/or Jack's lunacy.

Jalopnik I came to later, during the time of the reverse-letter named commenters :) and the "are you cool enough to post phase" :( Over time this site has grown on me and I spend most of my time here now.

highmodulus > WhatDaFunk 03/03/2014 at 08:54

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TTAC is one really good author, and a whole bunch of "eh its ok" with two heavy side dishes of douche. But its free and you don't have to read the comments (and probably shouldn't, they don't add anything unlike Bring A Trailer or Oppo here).

Vracktal > WhatDaFunk 03/03/2014 at 09:20

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I read Jalopnik and TTAC, but i'll freely admit I prefer Jalopnik. The community is just nicer, and I generally got slightly turned off TTAC after they gave Schmitt a pass to post a huge chunk of articles dedicated to vitriolically gloating at the demise of SAAB.

Derek Kreindler > WhatDaFunk 03/03/2014 at 20:14

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SPOILER ALERT: The writers all get along in real life.

Seriously though, if you think it's a binary "either/or" then you are misguided. Jalopnik does a lot of things well that we don't do, and vice versa.

Here's an example: a new station wagon is introduced. Jalopnik will write an article with lots of photos and pithy prose about how great wagons are, how awesome this new wagon is, and how misunderstood they are in America. TTAC would have an explanation of why we will probably not see this arrive stateside, with sales figures and other data to support the argument. Not everyone wants to read that, but there's plenty who do. And room for both.

WhatDaFunk > Derek Kreindler 03/03/2014 at 20:43

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Speak of the Devil(s)!

What you outline is exactly why I read both Jalopnik and TTAC, and also why I don't get the animosity between some members of their user bases. Both of the sites and their communities have a lot to offer each other.

Just curious, how did you come across this? Do you regularly read oppo?

Derek Kreindler > WhatDaFunk 03/03/2014 at 20:48

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I don't read Oppo as much as I'd like. I do read Jalopnik frequently. Matt and I talk a couple times a week.

I think people don't understand that we're not haters when we talk about appliance-like cars or talk about why certain cars don't have real prospects for being sold in America. Our mission is to be objective, first and foremost. I've been viewing things through the lens of the "automotive industry" versus "automotive enthusiasm" for so long that I simply get excited by writing about different fare than a Jalopnik reader might.

I'm interested in the "how" and the "why", the process of design, engineering, manufacturing, wholesale and retail, the geography and regulations. These are the things that shape cars into what they are. Always have, always will. Most of the endearing quirks that make cars special can be traced back to these aspects of the auto industry. I really want to understand them and share this knowledge with my readers. I don't think this is something that is so important to Jalopnik readers, but that's not a value judgement either.

In any case, I DD a Miata with snow tires and an LSD (no ABS) even in the crappiest winter weather, so I suffer for my passion in a different way.

Tom McParland > Derek Kreindler 03/04/2014 at 09:07

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Admit it Derek...you have more fun here. :)

Jason Torchinsky > Derek Kreindler 03/07/2014 at 06:13

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Full disclosure: Derek once flung an entire McDonald's Shamrock Shake right in my face.

No, I'm kidding. Derek's Canadian, and would never behave so abominably. And, honestly, I've never really understood the perceived rivalry here— I think it mostly exists in the minds of a small subset of commenters.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > WhatDaFunk 03/07/2014 at 08:34

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The light-hearted side is what I come to the big silver J for. I got my car schtuff-posting fix for years on AngerBlog.com. The articles are well done, but the comments are everything that's wrong about the internet. Several uninformed goons trolled by abusive dicks that have to be right all the time. I still read over there because it's a good repository of news from all over, but the community is poisonous.

J "oppo" Zeke > WhatDaFunk 03/07/2014 at 09:17

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I don't see a vers between TTAC and Jalopnik. They're both in depth, a little tongue-in-cheek, and the commentariat aren't particularly awful.

If you want to talk versus look no further than the Fox News of auto blogging, (ahem) autoblog. From terrible writing, to posters who are either braggarts, lying braggarts, or all N00b-level trolls the only thing good left on that site are the photo galleries.

I mean seriously, let's face it: Autoblog is a radical-right winger's wet dream of automotive blogging.

Found0nRoadDead > WhatDaFunk 03/07/2014 at 09:44

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I really like the concept of TTAC, and I enjoy some of their recurring features like the junkyard finds and that guy who really, REALLY likes Panther-platform cars. Some of their other posts are decidedly amateurish, and while I understand they pride themselves on not having access to the press fleets, their reviews suffer. I don't really care what they think about a 2006 Corolla. I really don't care for their regular roster of commentors, who are either plugging their crappy youtube series or just posting political vitriol, or in one case, both.

Matt Hardigree > Derek Kreindler 03/07/2014 at 11:11

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While I don't like the implication that we wouldn't do a post with data, we do indeed all basically get along. Even with Baruth.

GrauGeist > WhatDaFunk 03/07/2014 at 14:19

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Before, or after the latest Kinja?

GrauGeist > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura 03/07/2014 at 14:20

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Um, that's Jack for you. What did you expect from that self-aggrandizing man-child?

GrauGeist > WhatDaFunk 03/07/2014 at 14:21

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I used to read TTAC. Eventually, the sheer dickishness and assholery of the personalities there made me say "fuck 'em".

crown victor victoria > Jason Torchinsky 03/07/2014 at 17:23

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Well, Schmitt never helped matters much, but that resolved itself. He seemed to be the font of all the anti-jalopnik press, for what little of it there really was.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > GrauGeist 03/07/2014 at 20:35

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Anything except for his rampant lunacy that German saloon cars were utter turds.

Derek Kreindler > Matt Hardigree 03/08/2014 at 12:32

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Matt, did not intend to imply that whatsoever. My apologies if it came across that way.

Matt Hardigree > Derek Kreindler 03/08/2014 at 13:58

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It's all good homeboy. We would definitely also write the post you described... we may have written 100 of them by now.

mallthus > WhatDaFunk 03/10/2014 at 14:34

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I used to be an avid TTAC reader. The "used to be" ties directly to the ridiculous and utterly delusional things regularly posted to that site during the implosions of GM and Chrysler.

Now look, I'm not going to say everything was peaches and cream then, but their hate filled but light on facts rants were over the top. The writers made clear just how little about the automobile industry they actually understood, while making their political beliefs (well out of touch with my own) very, very clear.

If you're going to trade on the idea that your reporting and analysis is without favoritism or window dressing, then you have an obligation to provide exactly that. This isn't what they did and they lost a reader because of it.

Somethingwittyer likes noisy > WhatDaFunk 03/10/2014 at 21:41

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I haven't really given TTAC much of a chance ever since Beretel Schmitt decided I was a Jalopnik writer that posted Hentai on the FP. I'll read one or two really good articles occasionally if someone post something about them, but between adformention incident and the overall hatred for our community over there I'm hesitant to become consistent reader, to say the least.

Ronnie Schreiber > Derek Kreindler 04/30/2014 at 18:18

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I'll second Derek's comments. I read Jalopnik every day, before TTAC, as a matter of fact, but then I still read Autoblog first. Old habits die hard. I think that the Jalopnik crew has been gracious in the number of times they've listed TTAC posts as Must Reads, or linked to posts by TTAC writers (like Jack Baruth and Steve Lang) when they've been published elsewhere. My own experience running into Jalopnik writers at press events has been entirely cordial.