Me and My Tranny

"DAMG0014" (DAMG0014) 02/08/2014 at 14:15 • Filed to: civic si, civic, honda, third gear, transmission, manual

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I love this tranny, but I got something unexpected...

I've had my '07 Civic Si for a couple of weeks now, and with it, some of the realities of owning a car have set in. With my old Buick, the car just worked; I pressed the gas pedal, and it went forward. I even managed to get myself spinning 360 degrees in a sideswipe, and I just turned that key, put it in [D], pressed the gas pedal, and went home.

Learning to drive the stick hasn't been so bad for me; I've had no dramatic stalls. I typically and appropriately stall when I park. There are few hills where I live, so that hasn't been an issue, but I still practice hillstarts. My girlfriend tells a different story though; every time I change gears she speaks of whiplash and occasionally gasps. Whatever, I'm learning, and I tend to up-shift early around 3000RPM, keeping things civil and quiet. My bros haven't vocalized any issues.

There are two issues that I'm personally having though. One: how the fuck do you downshift!? Going fast is easy; the car loves tickling my balls, urging me to slam the accelerator, push that clutch deep, and thrust my gear knob into place. - Ooof, I need a cigarette. - Reading stuffs on the internet, I came to learn that I was "coasting around corners" with the clutch, and apparently that's no bueno and will only shorten the clutch's life expectancy. I would brake and press the clutch simultaneously, downshift, hold the clutch through the apex, then release and accelerate; it was smooth. But then I read that the clutch should only be pressed when shifting. Now I'm practicing slowing down before I turn; it's weird, and different from up-shifting where you actually lift off of the gas. I learned the hard way to not let off the gas when down-shifting. Any tips on the matter?

Practicing this rev-matching business, I've already managed to go around a corner way faster than I intended and expected. The car managed to be much more composed than I was. (not pictured)

Second issue: I'm pretty sure there's something wrong with my third gear. I read-up on this, and it turns out to be legitimate issue. I've seen it pop-out of gear twice out the corner of my eye, I've "missed" it a few times, revving in neutral, and just recently had it actually grind a couple of times. I'm starting to think it's not human error. The grind really freaked me out. That's something I actually felt. Given the low miles on the car, I can imagine how the previous owner managed to miss this. There wasn't a recall for it, but there was a TSB on the matter. From what I understand, is that this would be covered under warranty. My car is no longer under warranty, obviously. Is this third-gear issue a quirk that can be managed, or should I try to get this fixed ASAP? My dealer said they'd "work with me" if any issues would come up with the car. This is really my biggest concern.

I still love my car; I volunteer to drive every chance I get! Hopefully I'll get this third-gear thing figured.

TheOnelectronic > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 14:23

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As far as downshifting for a turn, practice heel-toe downshifting. It's easier than it sounds. Use the left side of your right foot to hit the brake, and the right side to hit the gas. This way you can slow down, and downshift without upsetting the car's balance. Just keep practicing and it will come to you fairly quickly.

As for jerky shifts, think of the acceleration like throwing a ball in the air. You want to let the clutch back out in the new gear right at the "apex" of the shift, if that makes sense.

And remember that the clutch is essentially two-stage. Let it out quickly right to the friction point, and then ease it out the rest of the way. Even when shifting, you should be using this approach. When you're driving fast, the car has enough momentum to smooth out fast shifts, but if you're driving at normal speed, you need a little extra time to let the clutch bring everything into harmony.

Casper > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 14:23

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Sounds like you have bad synchros in 3rd.

As for your driving, you should never be stalling even when parking, and you should only be holding the clutch in if coming to a stop. When braking, accelerating, shifting, you should be traveling straight, later you can practice advanced methods of balancing the vehicle while in a turn. As far as gearing down, the best method is to either not rush and let the car match the gearing as you release the clutch like a truck, or rev match with a blip of the throttle.

Just watch some random videos on rev matching to help:

AthomSfere > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 14:26

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Down shifting is really about knowing your car and how you drive it.

What RPM are you in at a given gear at a given speed? Say 2nd gear is 30mph at 3k. When you downshift at 30 mph, try to be at 3k RPM as you down shift into 2nd. For smooth driving, it is OK to slide into gear by releasing the clutch somewhat slowly.

Every car is a little different too. My 07 EX I missed 2nd gear fairly often (got locked out!) and my 07 Si I have missed 3rd gear exactly twice. But if it pops out of gear, I would get that looked at.

PRBot II > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 14:29

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I remember first learning stick shift, and the issue you mention sounds familiar.

Downshifting works when you rev the engine's crankshaft to meet the rpms of the wheels, then let in the clutch. Or something.

Each gear has a normal range for particular speeds. For example, 3rd gear might work best between 30 - 90 mph, depending on the car. If you find a twisty road, put it in 3rd and just cruise between 30 and 50 mph. Don't take it out of gear, just drive it like an automatic with both hands on the wheel. You'll feel the engine slow the car, which I'm sure you already have.

The absolute best advice I can give is to get out there and drive. And make mistakes. Time will solve all the issues you're having. Just be patient.

As for issue #2... shit I dunno man. It shouldn't popping out of gear if you shifted the stick all the way into 3rd. The car might need service.

Aaron James > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 14:29

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How does keeping the clutch disengaged wear it out quicker? You don't have to be in race mode at all times, short shifting and not banging gears in normal driving will do a lot to keep her running nice and smooth for years to come.

Leadbull > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 14:35

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You're going to get a lot of heel-toing advice, so I'll just say this instead:

Get your shifts out of the way before you enter a corner, not during. It's easier, and shifting mid-corner will throw off the balance of your car. Plus, being in the right gear will make for better, faster corner exits.

criminalenterprise > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 14:48

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Just practice blipping the throttle to rev-match when downshifting. You won't always get it just right but if you're smooth with the clutch pedal, the clutch will make up the difference well enough.

Grinding gears tends to come from shifting too fast. Don't slam it into gear but nudge it firmly until it wants to go.

Don't fight with a manual or it will break. The clutch and transmission are engineered to fail as a sacrifice to save the engine. Seems like the previous owner had some experience with this given its problems staying in gear.

Roberto G. > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 14:52

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Brake.

Down Clutch.

Neutral + Gas.

Downshift.

Up Clutch.

Gas, or Brake. It depends.

And for now, forget the heel-toe:

...you're not Kankkunen.

The WB > Aaron James 02/08/2014 at 14:58

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It's more about the throwout bearing than the actual clutch. It's not a problem that will occur until way down the road, but if you always just keep the clutch pedal down instead of neutral, you will put more stress on the throwout. It will take it yes, but it might fail at 130k instead of 190k.

oldirtybootz > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 15:00

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My Dart is my first stick, so it took some getting used to but now I'm quite comfortable with it. Shifting into second still gives me issues, but that also has to do with the turbo lag.

As far as down shifting goes, it took a month or so but I have that down good now. It's a matter of dropping a gear at a time rather than going from say 5th to 3rd if you're just slowing for a light. Say im traveling at 65mph in 5th and the light a 1/4 mile down the road turns red. I'll let off the gas and shift to 4th at 60ish, into 3rd at about 40-50, and 2nd below 30.

If I'm driving through some twisties, I'll drop a gear at a higer speed than I would if I were just coming to a red light. Say I'm in 4th at 60 coming up to a turn I know I'll need 3rd for, I'll drop a gear before the turn.

I know where you're coming from when it seems like you're going to break your car. You won't always have someone there to tell you if you're doing it right (in my case, no one ever taught me) so at times you wonder if you're doing it rigjt or not.

The WB > Roberto G. 02/08/2014 at 15:01

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For maximum rev-matching goodness (or a really heavy clutch) you can even let the clutch out when you do your neutral rev, so you don't have to spin the clutch disc up with the transmission.

Double clutching - not for drag races. I'm looking at you F&F.

Jeff-God-of-Biscuits > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 15:09

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My advice on timing the downshift / throttle match tango is this:

If you think about when you want to upshift, the process is you put your hand on the stick, and then you press the clutch. Once the clutch is pressed, you move the shifter to the next gear. then, using your right foot, you begin to add a little bit of throttle to "catch" the engine RPM and keep your momentum going. Once you have started to add throttle, you begin to release the clutch smoothly.

Downshifting is very similar. As you are approaching your turning point and setting your entry speed, you realize that you will need to downshift to keep the engine running at the RPM range that you want to use in the turn. Begin your downshift by putting your hand on the stick, and then you pressing the clutch. Then, using your right foot, you press the gas pedal to bring the engine RPMs up. As the engine speeds up, you use the shifter and move to the next gear down. Bringing the engine speed up will help the transmission slide into gear much easier. You then smoothly release the clutch pedal and begin your turn.

It sounds like a lot of stuff, but once you practice a bit it will become second nature.

Jeff-God-of-Biscuits > TheOnelectronic 02/08/2014 at 15:15

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Actually, another really good analogy could be like catching something like a football or volleyball thrown at you. When it comes at you, you dont just leave your arms out stiff and wait for the ball to run into your hands. As the ball reaches your hands, you start to pull your arms back and "cushion" the catch by absorbing the motion with your arms. Downshifting is the same concept. if you think of ball coming towards you (road speed), you are trying to match that speed with your arms (engine speed) You just have to learn to balance the the clutch with the gas to make the "catch" and create a smooth transition between gears.

Mattbob > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 15:15

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I love this tranny, but I got something unexpected...

Something unexpected from a tranny? Who would have thought?

Roberto G. > The WB 02/08/2014 at 15:24

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Yep, I know the DDC: my first car was a FIAT 500L, with no synchronized gears and it was obligatory. Also my little sister did learn it... but that's not for downshifting 101!

jariten1781 > Leadbull 02/08/2014 at 15:29

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This is the right answer. Heel toe is totally unnecessary on the street. Yeah, you can do it if it makes you feel better, but there's no real benefits. I don't even bother on the track until I'm consistent and comfortable with my lap times and I'm ready to start knocking off tenths.

The WB > Roberto G. 02/08/2014 at 15:30

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True. We had a '52 Willys I learned on that was the same way.

Though in 4L and with 6:1 axle ratios you could pretty much just let go of the clutch and be rolling along.

McLarry > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 15:35

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Slight disclaimer...everyone on this site fancies themselves a professional, so you're about to get a metric crapload of advice. Luckily we're mostly all saying the same thing in different ways, so hopefully it actually helps.

First, the car... I have a friend with a Civic Si (07 or 08...I forget), and his third gear is wonky too - something wrong with the synchro.

Now, downshifting...The best advice I can offer that helped me is to practice mentally before you practice it physically. This isn't an intuitive thing, so being able to visualize exactly what you're trying to do before you do it is very helpful. Beyond that, try not to get impatient...don't try to jump straight to heel-toe rev-matching with double-declutching. Start with a simple, clutch-in revmatch...forget about neutral, forget about the brake. You're just doing a downshift but jabbing the gas a bit. Keep doing it that way until it's smooth. Then add the double declutch - let the clutch out in neutral for the rev and put it back in, still in neutral. Once you can do that smoothly, it's all just a matter of contorting your foot to be able to stay on the brake while you doing the same thing.

Leadbull > jariten1781 02/08/2014 at 15:37

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I still do it, though.

It's fun.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 15:37

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For the downshifts, with my 08, I found that if you release the gas right as you take it out of gear and blip the throttle (medium-hard) as you start releasing the clutch once you hit the next gear, you'll smooth it out.

Axial > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 15:58

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When just driving around town, your shifts should be imperceptible. If you feel any sort of kick that isn't pure forward motion after the gear change, your shift is not being executed right. That's probably what your lady-friend is gasping about; you are probably dumping the clutch, which is really easy to do and you may not feel like you are doing it. You've probably got just a hair too many RPMs going when this happens, hence the kick. Alternatively, on the down-shift, you've got too few RPMs.

Now, onto down-shifting.

You may lift during a down-shift, just know that you are going to have to goose it before you release the clutch so you can rev-match. I always lift a little bit because if I don't, my engine will hit 4000 before I get the gear in place and release. Lift it enough so that your engine will rev to where it needs to be when the lower gear cuts in. Or just do what I do: lift it an arbitrary amount so that it won't over rev while in neutral, change gear, goose it, and let the clutch out.

Coasting around corners is only going to reduce your clutch life expectancy if you are A.) not fully depressing the clutch and thus riding it, and B.) you are using the clutch more than you would if you just shifted once, which usually isn't the case. Coasting isn't the way to go to drive fast but around town when the speeds and what gear you should be in sometimes get a little ambiguous? I have no problem with doing it.

Regarding the transmission issue, I would have it looked at. My reverse sometimes doesn't go into gear even though I'm 100% positive it has, and I get a grind when I try to start moving. Embarrassing, to say the least, because it happens at gas stations and car shows more than anywhere else. I need to get that checked.

And now, some friendly reminders about driving stick:

When in doubt about stopping, both feet in

Always leave your foot off of the clutch and until ready to shift; the dead pedal is your friend and your clutch will thank you

Keep both hands on the wheel until ready to shift; your synchros will be happier

Stay loose; body tension leads to sloppy shifts

Ignore double-clutching, just do clutch-in rev-matching

Have fun and drive safe.

brianbrannon > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 17:56

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Third gear syncros are an issue. Your car is not under Honda warranty anymore so unless you have an extended one it will cost you out of pocket

bhardoin > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 19:31

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A) If you want to coast around corners, that's fine. But put the stick in neutral, so you don't have to ride the clutch.

B) You should totally learn to heel-toe, its gratifying even if its not necessary. For a little while at red lights/whenever you're in neutral, practice holding the brake and controlling the throttle with your right foot. It will feel weird as hell at first, but you'll get the hang of it. And once you've got that down, you'll be able to slowly start revmatching downshifts by heel-toeing (note that on your car this may be more like, side-footing. You'll figure it out.)

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > DAMG0014 02/08/2014 at 22:40

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When downshifting remember not to take your foot of the gas pedal. In fact mash it as hard as you can while in between gears, then remove your foot from the clutch as fast as possible.

TheOnelectronic > Jeff-God-of-Biscuits 02/08/2014 at 23:40

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...so that's why I'm terrible at catching things...