Why small[ish] diesels in light[ish] trucks its a GREAT idea.

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 02/04/2014 at 14:17 • Filed to: car and driver

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Car and Driver is reporting the EPA estimates for the Ecodiesel Ram, they are pretty great

Source

Its about time we started getting trucks with pulling power AND decent mileage. Rumor is the new F150 will get close, but not while towing, thats for sure. There are problems with a diesel engine (mostly costs) but if I can get 20 city and 28 highway, and probably as good as 18 with a load....I'm sold.

Stupidru > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 14:20

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It's still a Chrysler product. I can't get the thought of failing transmissions left and right out of my brain

472CID > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 14:22

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20/28 is amazing for a fullsize. I'd love to see a breakdown of the breakeven point of diesel vs. gas

Bad Kev > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 14:22

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20/28?!

Holy crap...

Milky > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 14:23

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DAMN thats good, way to go Ram.

Lazzris > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 14:24

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Because they would make a great swap to put in my wagon

Takuro Spirit > Stupidru 02/04/2014 at 14:25

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They've gotten a LOT better since the old days.

For Sweden > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 14:25

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If they continue the practice of offering a 6MT on diesels...

:D

Milky > Stupidru 02/04/2014 at 14:26

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ZF 8spd I believe …. no worries to be had.

CobraJoe > Bad Kev 02/04/2014 at 14:27

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That's better than my Thunderbird...

I'm averaging 17 right now... Not sure what's wrong with it though.

Stupidru > Takuro Spirit 02/04/2014 at 14:27

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I know I need to believe that, but I just can't get it out of my small, infantile mind

Stupidru > Milky 02/04/2014 at 14:28

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Good old German transmissions. Consider me in... once they get this mileage out of a Ford.

camotoy > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 14:31

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now put one in a small truck. Toyota i am looking at you

Nibbles > Stupidru 02/04/2014 at 14:33

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Their 8HP70 transmission is a ZF product. ZF 8HP, quite possibly the best automatic transmission ever designed. It's used in many vehicles outside of Chrysler, including BMWs, Audis, Maseratis and many others.

It truly is a magical piece of equipment. 200 millisecond shifts out of a regular old automatic? As a manual douche elitist I like this.

Milky > Stupidru 02/04/2014 at 14:33

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Nothing quite like holding on to old, outdated truths huh?

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 14:33

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How are dodge ball joints these days? I know some Ford/Chevy fanboys that always curse Dodge for their stupid ball joints.

edit: I mean Ram...

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > CobraJoe 02/04/2014 at 14:35

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5.0 is thirsty

5.0 demand fuel

5.0 cares little for your wallet

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > 472CID 02/04/2014 at 14:35

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Yeah a true cost of ownership comparison would be awesome. Including things like oil changes, batteries, regular maintenance, common repairs, all of that!

My big complain with large diesels is the dual batteries, expensive oil changes and complexity of the modern examples. Some of that could be mitigated with this smaller diesel.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > 472CID 02/04/2014 at 14:35

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Someone did it for me one day. but (and I havent clicked thru yet) you have to know the additional cost of the diesel engine to calculate it.

CobraJoe > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 02/04/2014 at 14:40

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No worries, it snowed today, so I drove the Mazda.

Too bad it only caps out at 25mpg, no matter how I drive.

Stupidru > Milky 02/04/2014 at 14:41

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You got it!

Nibbles > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 02/04/2014 at 14:43

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It'll be $2850 over the HEMI, or $4000 over the Pentastar

Nibbles > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 14:43

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If it's not overly complicated, I could totes see myself grabbing one of these and putting it in my Dakota

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Nibbles 02/04/2014 at 14:45

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I wonder how oil-change-cost compares.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Bad Kev 02/04/2014 at 14:45

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Yeah, that's better than my SHO right now, but in its defense I have a short commute in currently 10 degree weather. I should see better numbers soon, lol

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > camotoy 02/04/2014 at 14:46

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Now put that engine in the 300/Charger. :D

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 14:46

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I would love to see this engine in chryslers full size sedans! (300/Charger).

Nibbles > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 02/04/2014 at 14:47

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8 quarts plus filter

Also Urea needs to be calculated. I remember reading somewhere that 1 gallon is supposed to last about 10k miles.

Nibbles > Stupidru 02/04/2014 at 14:51

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I will say this though. With all the troubles I've had on xRE transmissions, I told the wife - bar none - no more Chrysler automatics in our driveway, ever.

I'm relenting on that. 1500 EcoDiesel for her, Charger R/T for me.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > CobraJoe 02/04/2014 at 14:53

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Which Mazda?

I DD my 07 Mercury Milan V6...which is largely a platform sharer of the Mazda. I get about 28 highway tho.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Nibbles 02/04/2014 at 14:55

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Big increase in up front cost. But if you want the power of the V8 and good gas mileage it'll benefit you in the long run most likely.

Nibbles > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 02/04/2014 at 14:57

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I figured as much. When we do decide to buy though, the truck will be purchased with the intention of ownership for at least 10-15 years, longevity allowing. I think over that time frame the EcoDiesel will probably be the better bet (though I know nothing of VM Motori's longevity)

desertdog5051 > Stupidru 02/04/2014 at 15:00

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A friend has '07 Ram 3500. He does not overload it. So far a trans, 2 broken ball joints, half dozen U joints, both front hubs, and some other stuff that I can't recall right now. He does live 20 miles down a dirt road but it is graded pretty regularly. I would not own a Ram.

desertdog5051 > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 02/04/2014 at 15:02

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Not good. See my post above.

quarterlifecrisis > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 15:05

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If the engines and aftermarket will support decent numbers...I'll be all over this at some point. Before I saw the light of driving sports cars, I was all about the truck thing. (Still have a full size half ton Chevy.) When the baby Duramax debuted in a Suburban concept several years back, it seemed perfect. Diesel fun, without needing a 3/4 ton truck.

CobraJoe > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 02/04/2014 at 15:06

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'02 Protege5. It's my little beater runaround car. It's quite fun, even though it has required just about as much maintenance as my project car.

Zoom > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 15:33

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Picked up the M/T issue at the airport on the way down south two weeks ago. Opened it up and surprise! Ram 1/2 ton VM Motori Diesel. M/T also saw 28 2wd 26 4wd. That's as good as my wife's T+C.

They loved the truck.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > CobraJoe 02/04/2014 at 15:38

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Haha, oops on the maintenance.

The milan has been pretty great for the 32k miles I've put on it.

We'll see if it keeps on kicking.

CobraJoe > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 02/04/2014 at 15:48

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Well, it's mostly my fault for buying a car that was previously riced out. It was improperly lowered, had a rusted out catback exhaust, a radio that wasn't hooked up correctly, and had 18in rims that cracked on the hard potholes.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > CobraJoe 02/04/2014 at 16:05

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yikes dude.

yikes.

HammerheadFistpunch > camotoy 02/04/2014 at 16:06

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You rang ?

CobraJoe > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 02/04/2014 at 16:21

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But hey, at least I spent nearly full NADA value for it...

I'll admit, it wasn't my best car inspection or purchasing moment, but I'm slowly addressing the problems and enjoying it while doing so. I've had it for about 2 years now, so all of that has been spread out and still probably cheaper than buying something that wouldn't need all the work. In the end, I'll still have a fun and useful little wagon.

flabberboozled > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2014 at 16:46

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20/28? Looks at garage with BL Legacy GT and S2000. Looks at 20/28. Looks back at garage.

WTF?

HammerheadFistpunch > flabberboozled 02/04/2014 at 16:47

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For the reals. My truck will never get half that.

Alex87f > 472CID 02/04/2014 at 16:54

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Factor in higher maintenance / insurance / lower reliability / higher upfront cost, compare with fuel savings / higher resale value, and I'd be surprised if the calculation amounted to anything below 80 - 100 000 miles.

Now the question is, what percentage of owners keep their trucks 80 000 miles?

Alex87f > HammerheadFistpunch 02/05/2014 at 07:18

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Let's do some math here.

Ram 1500 2WD HemiV8 / 8AT: 17mpg combined , runs on 3.60$/ga midgrade gas.

Ram 1500 2WD EcoDiesel / 8AT: 23mpg combined , runs on 3.99$/ga diesel

This means that for 100 miles, the costs will be as follows:
-V8: 21.17$
-EcoDiesel: 17.35$
That's 3.82$ saved for every 100 miles

So to make up for the extra 2 850$, you will have to travel 74 600 miles.
Factor in the more expensive maintenance an insurance, urea, and your break-even point will be pushed away to around 90-100 000miles.
And that's before we start talking about the diesel's reliability (one HP injector = 400+$, turbocharger = 2 000$ job at least, etc.). Especially in the US where people aren't used to maintaining their cars very well.

And then there's the performance.
-The Hemi does 0-60 in about 6 seconds versus 9 for the Ecodiesel
-Towing is rated at 10 500lbs for the Hemi vs. 9 200lbs for the Ecodiesel.

So you're giving up a lot, but not saving that much since most owners will sell their trucks long before they reach the calculated break-even point.

And if you're really leaning towards money saving, the cost per mile of a 3.6 is lower than a diesel, so that'd be the cheap alternative.

28mpg HWY is a good looking figure, but not the only one people should be looking at.

HammerheadFistpunch > Alex87f 02/05/2014 at 10:46

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Seriously. Its not about the math.

Alex87f > HammerheadFistpunch 02/05/2014 at 13:21

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What is it about then?

Narrower powerband? Worse soundtrack?

Being a European who lives amongst waaaay too many diesels that don't need be, I can't understand the American's crave for diesels when they have the possibility to drive the gas V6's and V8's we all dream of.

HammerheadFistpunch > Alex87f 02/05/2014 at 13:27

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What it boils down to is this:

Europeans have had crappy CRAPPY diesels. Sure they are efficicent, but they are way below standards the US has set for diesels. I.e. any US diesel in Light duty truck or passenger vehicle has to meet the same emissions standards as gasoline engines.

ours diesels aren't

stinky

black smoke machines

slow

We only get the good stuff. It costs more, but what truck owner doesn't want 410 ft-lbs at low rpms, that isn't affected by altitude and returns WAY better loaded mileage than a gas engine of equiv. pulling power. Seriously, the ecoboost V6 gets similar numbers unloaded and has similar torque characteristics but put a trailer on it and it sucks fuel like any gas v8, Turbo-diesels rock the pulling world because you only get marginally lower mileage pulling a load than empty. I bet this thing still gets 18 mpg pulling a 6500 lb trailer. Good luck getting that or close to it with ANY gas engine.

Alex87f > HammerheadFistpunch 02/05/2014 at 13:50

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Having owned a (modern and common-rail) diesel, they are affected by altitude, if not as much as N/A engines. The will also use more fuel when loaded. Trust me. Add a good dose of turbo-lag, lower reliability and more expensive components. And an engine that spits its guts past 3 500 - 4 000rpm, if it even gets there.

Europeans have had diesels for 40 years. We've had the crappy first ones, but it's over. The US didn't get evolved diesels all of a sudden, those were developed over here . The engine from the EcoDiesel Ram is available in several European cars and trucks, including our version of Chrysler's 300. You don't get better stuff. You get the same diesels as we do apart from Urea injection, which doesn't change the engine radically. Euro 6 and Tier 2 bin 5 aren't that different. That doesn't change the fact that if diesel wasn't taxed less than gas, most Europeans would be driving petrol cars.

Also keep in mind that the current "clean" diesels are clean by today's standards, just as much as 1998 diesels were "clean" by 1998 standards. See how they look now? Not good.

As for the "slow" part, I don't know, an EcoDiesel costs 4 000 bucks more than a Pentastar and gets its arse kicked on 0-60..

HammerheadFistpunch > Alex87f 02/05/2014 at 14:06

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I can disagree with you about mileage and load, because I've overseen a fleet of F350's that tow...so I've seen the numbers. Same goes for maintenance, sure the parts are costly, but the intervals are long, its a wash.

Euro diesels are getting better...now, but euro 6 is just getting phased in while Tier II bin 5 has been around a decade.

The euro market is to thank for diesel development, thanks for that...though we have some pretty great local engines too (cummins, duramax, powerstroke, etc) we'll call it a fair trade for microprocessors and the internet, okay?

40 years of stinky diesels clearly HAS tainted your perspective

Clean isn't relative, the emissions are actually quite low...full stop. Its not nothing, but its folly to say that because they still emit that they are relatively dirty, emissions are down 90%, dropping 90% again in the next 10 years is possible, even likely, but 90% less 100 is 10, and 90% less 10 is 1. if you talk about % its impressive, but if you talk about volume, its less so.

Slow is relative, I don't need a truck to do 0-60 in less than 10 seconds, I need it to pull and keep pulling up a hill with a load.

I've driven a small passenger diesel for 3 years now and its been great. The Euro's are always the first to make the "why do you want these, they suck" train, but lets be honest...they are very different from the diesels you've had and are quite good and particularly suited to trucks.

Alex87f > HammerheadFistpunch 02/05/2014 at 14:42

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Well your F350' had the brilliant diesel V8's, those which also happen to cost a proper fortune to buy. I'm surprised the intervals are long though. That difference tends to get lower with newer cars as petrol ones get the longlife treatment too.

What about the math posted above? If you've been a fleet manager you'll probably be able to say how long it takes to break even on diesels?

The same calculation has been made in France and they realized 60% of diesel buyers actually never got to this breakeven point for diesel.

As for Euro norms, they change quite often so by the time Tier 2 bin 5 gets revisited we'll probably be looking at Euro 7 or 8. Nevertheless, the countries with the highest "dieselisation" are also the ones with the highest cancer rates and worst air quality.

I'm curious, what modern diesel do you drive?

I used to have an Alfa 147 JTD. It had a 1.9 common rail diesel with 115hp and 210lb. ft of torque. Quite a turbo effect but a ridiculously small powerband, heavy front end, crappy noise and bad throttle response. Not a bad at all and very comfortable -as well as gorgeous to look at-, but the diesel is clearly something that made me want to sell it. That and the fact that it was really a 4-5 tenths car.

HammerheadFistpunch > Alex87f 02/05/2014 at 14:48

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I never said I was a fleet manager, but I've worked for an organization with about a dozen diesel trucks, the break even with all things considered usually happens around 50,000-70,000 mile ramge (including maintenance) but most of the trucks we had were well over that (some into the 200,000 mile territory). keep up on the regular maintenance and the costs and intervals for major repairs are drawn out quite a ways.

I drive a VW JSW tdi manual, its a great car. I like being able to load it up with 1000 lbs of stuff, put it in 6th and cruise at extra legal highway speeds up and over our biggest mountain passes without a complaint, and then get 40+ mpg. Its a winner.