Consumer reports was(is?) save the manuals?

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
12/23/2014 at 11:46 • Filed to: save the manuals

Didn't see that one coming, but of course the figured out a way to take the fun out of it.

Also, yes this is old

DISCUSSION (39)

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > HammerheadFistpunch
12/23/2014 at 11:49

It used to be common knowledge that manuals were better on gas, it's only now that we have 7 & 8 speed ZF autos that the manual isn't more efficient.

Gamecat235 > HammerheadFistpunch
12/23/2014 at 11:50

I will never, ever, understand the dislike for CR in these parts. CR has a bunch of folks who are gearheads who test vehicles, and then return quantitative , rather than qualitative, results, rank these in order of real world usefulness, and then warn when vehicles could actually be a hazard.

Given all of this, the reults that if a manual is: cheaper, faster, and more efficient, then clearly, the manual is better. (ETA: sadly, in many cases none of these are true anymore. Long live the manual, the manual is dead dying)

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
12/23/2014 at 11:52

It will probably still last longer, though. I'm curious about how all of these billion speed autos with over 9000 sensors and components are going to work in ten years.

HammerheadFistpunch > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
12/23/2014 at 11:54

it would be interesting to do a retest, I would guess parity or smaller margins, but not victories outright for the auto.

HammerheadFistpunch > Gamecat235
12/23/2014 at 11:55

Suzuki Samuri

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Gamecat235
12/23/2014 at 11:58

My only qualm I have with Consumer Reports is that they rate things like people not liking the myford touch into the overall reliability, for example the Fiesta ST has poor reliability but if you look at the individual breakdown it is the electronics that have the poor rating. They should really add a second level to the electronics to separate the infotainment and overall electronics from each other, and add more descriptors to those sections to differentiate between actually broken and just not working the way they want it to be.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > HammerheadFistpunch
12/23/2014 at 12:01

Granted Most SUVs and large trucks haven't had manual options in a while, but I know pretty much all the gas mileage savings in the last few years are down to the better transmissions so I would imagine it would be close.

Gamecat235 > HammerheadFistpunch
12/23/2014 at 12:01

A controversy over an adverb. Which resulted in a legal settlement in which both parties agreed that the wording was incorrect, and that the vehicle in question had issues with rolling over in certain circumstances.

The Samurai was easier to roll than many other vehicles at the time, CR's choice of words was rather unfortunate and led to even tighter editorial controls over the style of writing included in their reports.

3.14 rad/s > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
12/23/2014 at 12:03

Manual transmissions are designed to have a single serviceable, wearable part, the clutch. Automatic transmissions are not really designed to be serviceable, so once they go, it's very difficult and expensive to fix. After the automatic transmission in my Pontiac started going bad, I sold it and decided to only buy cars with manual transmissions. They're more fun anyway. I work at Chrysler and I can't stand the 9 speed ZF transmission they use in everything now. Sure, it's more efficient, but it's jerky and extremely slow to downshift when accelerating.

Gamecat235 > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
12/23/2014 at 12:04

They should, but, if an everyday system has real problems which are experienced and require servicing (especially if such servicing would be a warranty type repair, with delays and repairs), then it should definitely be noted. Also, CR tends to expect people to read the reports and if something that a particular consumer is prone to failure, but is not a concern to that person, then they should take that information into account.

HammerheadFistpunch > Gamecat235
12/23/2014 at 12:05

I think it was a little more than wording. Its pretty clear they were after an intended result. The fact remains that the killed the samuri in the US

BrtStlnd > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
12/23/2014 at 12:06

Electronics are such a huge part of reliable car performance in 2014 though. In many cases, if electronic gremlins abound... you're not getting the experience you paid for.

jariten1781 > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
12/23/2014 at 12:08

Yep, JD Power is the same way. It actually doesn't bother me personally because I kind of understand what goes in to the ratings, but it does lead to the public (aka my parents/coworkers) getting a wrong impression since they use words like 'Initial Quality' or 'Reliability' then weight engines blowing the same as confusing climate controls that work fine once you get used to it.

BrtStlnd > Gamecat235
12/23/2014 at 12:09

I've been a CR subscriber since college and have used their ratings in my auto decision making for every car purchase. I think they tell the best story on what it's like to LIVE with a car on a daily basis.

Yes I completely ignored their advice when I bought an X5.

HammerheadFistpunch > Gamecat235
12/23/2014 at 12:10

See also Isuzu

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Gamecat235
12/23/2014 at 12:11

Oh yeah I agree totally, and I knew why it got the rating it did (although I have found sync to be pretty good...), I just feel like there should be more classes, as there are so many electronics in cars now and some could affect your ability to drive period, whereas others are just an inconvenience. I think that should be captured more succinctly.

Gamecat235 > HammerheadFistpunch
12/23/2014 at 12:11

Yes, but the vehicle itself, at that time, in the hands of an inexperienced driver, was dangerous. This report did lead to the death of one of the greatest platforms at the time (a cheap Jeep like vehicle which was nearly as capable and was as easy or easier to service). This is practically the definition of confirmation bias.

But the resultant lawsuit did lead to actual change, in both the design of the vehicle (to make it safer for the average driver) and to the editorial oversight of CR.

PS9 > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
12/23/2014 at 12:11

I'm honestly kinda glad they rate it the way they do. We might not care too much for touch screens and Bluetooth, but the consumers out there who do deserve to get their money's worth. Imagine buying a $1k part for your car only to find that it doesn't work right. You'd be pissed. The same goes for a $1k option package (or whatever these entertainment thingys cost) on a car you're buying .

HammerheadFistpunch > Gamecat235
12/23/2014 at 12:13

I think my problems with CR is that they are nothing near unbiased, then they ask you to pay for their unbiased advice. In the days of information Glut, much of it high quality and free....it doesn't make CR the glowing beacon of information they think.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > BrtStlnd
12/23/2014 at 12:14

Exactly , there should be a different way to report something not functioning versus not functioning the way you would like, but still working as intended. As it stands someone not being satisfied with how mysync recognizes voice controls is treated the same way as someones mysync being broken completely.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > PS9
12/23/2014 at 12:17

I'm more focusing on the fact that the infotainment system not turning on at all is treated the same as the infotainment system messing up voice commands.

Gamecat235 > HammerheadFistpunch
12/23/2014 at 12:18

Well, first off, there is no unbiased analysis of data. It doesn't exist. The act of observing and then quantifying your observation introduces bias regardless of "correctness". In this regard an ideal method would be independent aggregation of multiple sources without each one influencing the other. But that would be ridiculous to organize.

And I do understand your concerns here, because when CR has shown obvious bias, it's been glaring. That said, a lot of their reviews are more useful than what you can find in some other magazines in terms of real world ownership.

BrtStlnd > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
12/23/2014 at 12:18

Yes but the issue with the Ford electronics is that it isn't working as intended. KDS has a FoST and he's had nothing but headaches from an electronic control standpoint. I think the issues are being reported properly.

HammerheadFistpunch > Gamecat235
12/23/2014 at 12:21

I hear you. I don't HATE CR, I just don't consider them any more a reliable source for information in my personal aggregate as I would an amazon review or youtube review...which are free.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > BrtStlnd
12/23/2014 at 12:25

Again it's not that they are being reported, but that there is no way to differentiate between the two.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > HammerheadFistpunch
12/23/2014 at 12:25

Glad to see that I'm not the only one still pissed about that...

Gamecat235 > 3.14 rad/s
12/23/2014 at 12:27

I still remember taking apart and reassembling an AT in auto shop in high school. Not fun, not that clutch replacement is a bowl of cherries, but between the two?

Also, I made you an author on Oppo, you can post new threads here and will no longer be pending on any thread on oppositelock. Welcome aboard. The rules are over here: http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/oppositelock-h… Let me know if you have any questions.

BrtStlnd > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
12/23/2014 at 12:29

You just have to read the entire review.

BrtStlnd > HammerheadFistpunch
12/23/2014 at 12:31

Wait a sec... you give a YouTube or Amazon review more weight that someone from Consumer Reports?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Gamecat235
12/23/2014 at 12:31

Wasn't easier to roll than the Bronco II.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > BrtStlnd
12/23/2014 at 12:33

It's not always clear, and if someone is just looking at the overall scores it could really affect whether they give a vehicle a second look. You really think that adding more information would make things worse?

Stapleface-Now Hyphenated! > HammerheadFistpunch
12/23/2014 at 12:35

While I get what you're saying that CR certainly didn't do the Samurai any favors, the Sidekick soldiered on for quite a few years after this, which for the most part was the same model. I don't think CR was wrong in saying the vehicle is more prone to rollovers than those with a lower center of gravity. It's really common sense.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
12/23/2014 at 12:37

Well if my experience with a rental 2014 Buick Verano (6 speed automatic with Direct Injected 2.4L 4cyl) is anything to go by, manuals still get better real world fuel economy.

According to government economy ratings, it was supposed to get about 5% better fuel economy than my old PT Cruiser (base model, manual transmission, regular port injection). In reality, it got about 5% worse. And when I drove it really REALLY gently, the best I could do is get the same mileage as the manual PT.

Gamecat235 > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
12/23/2014 at 12:38

Any SUV (large, small, crossover) has a propensity to rollover. The Samurai had the unfortunate incidence of someone with an ax to grind, even when confronted with the evidence that an experienced driver was unable to get the vehicle to tip at speeds approaching the limit of reasonable tests (beyond which it would be expected that any vehicle of similar design would roll).

CR screwed the pooch on this one, but singling them out for an analysis from 26 years ago seems unfair.

HammerheadFistpunch > Stapleface-Now Hyphenated!
12/23/2014 at 12:42

They say it cost Suzuki over 60 million in the 90's. Ouch.

Kate's Dirty Sister > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
12/23/2014 at 14:18

Yup, but even when MyFordTouch or Sync crap out, you still have to take the car to the garage, and this affects the car's reliability report.

Taking the car to the garage is pain in the ass when you have a job and kids to dop at school, so when I need to take the car to the garage for a software flash, it annoys me greatly.

Kate's Dirty Sister > BrtStlnd
12/23/2014 at 14:20

Agreed, taking the car the garage is a pain in the ass when you work daytime and have kids to shuffle around, even if it's "only" for a software update.

nermal > Gamecat235
12/23/2014 at 14:33

Exhibit A: They think the new GTI is crap. Based on how wrong they are in this regard, it's safe to invalidate their opinions on everything else.

nermal > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
12/23/2014 at 14:36

Yep. Would be interesting to compare the manual vs a "good" auto, such as the 8 spd in new BMWs, or VWs DSG.