Buick Are Idiots (also, I got a swYAY bar)

"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa)
12/17/2014 at 14:07 • Filed to: murdersofa, buicklopnik

Yesterday I popped off to a local salvage yard and managed to find a rear sway bar from a 2000 Cadillac SeVille STS. The FE3 'Sport and Handling' bar. To my surprise, for $35 I got the bar, body mounts, end links, and body mount bolts, all of which were in like-new condition due to the low miles of the donor car. I stuck them on my 2000 Buick LeSabre, which previously had NO sway bar in he rear whatsoever, and after 20 minutes of the easiest mod I ever did to my car I was out for a drive.

Oh. My. God.

It is so much better. Low speed turns in residential neighborhoods are no longer pitchy rolly affairs bookended with queasy upset stomachs. The steering wheel feels like it's doing something, and there's a bit more resistance when turning it. Steering input is much more immediate. Everything about the car gets made better, even the ride.

My question is, with how dramatic of an improvement this single mod is, why the hell wasn't it standard? Even a shitty sway bar, like the one offered on the LeSabre Celebration Edition with the Grand Touring package, would help ride quality and boost the car's appeal massively.

Ugh.

DISCUSSION (30)

Mattbob > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
12/17/2014 at 14:10

it didn't have a sway bar at all? How is this possible? Was there a previous owner who may have taken it off for some crazy reason?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
12/17/2014 at 14:11

Probably the same reason that the Corvair didn't get a sway-bar: GM accountants. Hopefully, I'll have a rear sway bar attached to my AW11 this weekend too. Can't wait to feel the front bite a bit more and the back stay level in direction changes.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Mattbob
12/17/2014 at 14:13

A car doesn't need a sway bar to work, it just helps with body roll. Most FWD cars I've seen came stock without a rear sway bar.

Mattbob > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
12/17/2014 at 14:14

wow, this just sounds like a terrible idea. So much extra work for the front sway bar. I guess it makes the ride more plush? I've never owned a FWD car, I had no idea.

Textured Soy Protein > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
12/17/2014 at 14:15

They probably figured the typical LeSabre buyer was not concerned with things like body roll and could save a couple bucks by not including a swaybar.

Also, I'm impressed that you did something to your car that didn't involve drilling or cutting things that should remain intact.

Milky > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
12/17/2014 at 14:15

Because the average Buick customer is 65 and doesn't give a shit about cornering.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Mattbob
12/17/2014 at 14:17

More plush = maybe, but it was much less comfortable due to the insane body roll and even a stiff breeze would tilt the damn thing.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > Mattbob
12/17/2014 at 14:17

Most Mk1 MR2's don't have rear bars either. Only certain models for certain years. Adding one makes a HUGE difference.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Mattbob
12/17/2014 at 14:19

I think it's for a couple of reasons. One is that most cars are tuned to understeer because safety or something. The other is that in FWD cars, most of the weight is over the front wheels and the back tends to be very light. Install a rear sway bar, and the back will step out more since it's no longer completely independent. I think that this is part of the reason for the SCCA allowing one axle to have an added or altered sway bar in stock classes. You can make a horribly pushy FWD econobox pivot around the cones with the addition of a sway bar at the expense of rear grip.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Textured Soy Protein
12/17/2014 at 14:19

Yeah, but the two main advertising points for this car were 'safety and comfort', and not having a rear sway bar seems to go against both of those since it's less safe (any evasive maneuvers are instantly hampered by the car loading the hell out of the outer wheels and pitching around) and less comfortable (nobody likes body roll. It makes slow corners feel fast and pisses off passengers who have no idea what 'body roll' even means at 10mph)

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
12/17/2014 at 14:24

The rear sway bar will allow the back to step out. This is universally viewed by shops, manufacturers, and insurance companies as dangerous. For some reason, they'd rather you haplessly slide face first into something than go sideways and have a chance of correcting it...

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig
12/17/2014 at 14:25

Hopefully I'll get to find out this weekend! Have a sway bar for my '89. I just haven't been able to install it yet.

Mattbob > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
12/17/2014 at 14:25

those old people like to pretend they are piloting a boat, so it works out.

Funktheduck > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
12/17/2014 at 14:32

Not standard bc money. Before the shake up where gm tried to skew Buick towards non retirees only old people bought them. As everyone knows old people fear going above 45 mph and take turns at near 0 mph. It was unnecessary and would just add to the cost. Those cars don't get pushed beyond a couch potato pace until the original owners die and they get passed onto their grand kids as a first car.

Textured Soy Protein > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
12/17/2014 at 14:32

Ok, but you're forgetting about the "typical LeSabre buyer" part.

LeSabre buyers are old . They learned to drive on massive vehicles that swayed like crazy in turns. They don't like change, and they buy vehicles that drive like the ones they remember. Old people don't equate body roll with unsafeness.

My grandparents are 91 years old. You could call them typical LeSabre buyers, although they never actually have owned a LeSabre. During my lifetime, they have owned:

2005 Toyota Avalon
2001 Acura 3.5RL
1999 Mercury Grand Marquis
1996 Cadillac DeVille
1991 Lincoln Continental
1987 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Regency Brougham
1985 Plymouth Reliant K

They've been driving old-people cars for at least 30 years, and I'm pretty damn sure they never really cared about body roll.

 V8 Rustler > Mattbob
12/17/2014 at 14:32

My 98 Mustang does not have a rear sway bar.

doodon2whls > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
12/17/2014 at 14:35

At one point in time, 'Comfort' to 98% of Americans meant plush porpoising floating-on-a-cloud ride and no handling to speak of. As long as Grandmaw and Grandpaw could effortlessly float between destinations steering with one pinky, and leaving the left turn signal on for the entire ride, they were overjoyed delighted customers. Body roll ? They don't even know the phrase in an automotive context. ;-)

Congratulations on the ingenious and resourceful modification, NOT Jayhawk Jake.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
12/17/2014 at 14:38

You're gonna need to add tabs to the strut housings if it doesn't already have them. My 88 SC didn't. TwosRUS used to make shackle-looking things that bolted around the strut to give you a sway bar attachment point, but I don't think they make them anymore. Whatever you do, don't weld anything on the strut housing with the shock insert still in there or you will ruin it.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig
12/17/2014 at 14:52

Yeah, I was hoping to find some of the mounting devices that TwosRUs sold, but didn't have any luck. I'm thinking about drilling a hole in the bottom of the spring perch and bolting it in there since that's what ST recommends as a "universal" solution and they included hardware to make that work.

Saoul-Virage > Mattbob
12/17/2014 at 15:07

On FWD if the rear of the car is to stiff, it will give the car a tendency to have more understeer. So careful, don't throw massive rear sway bar on a FWD.

CKeffer > Saoul-Virage
12/17/2014 at 15:28

Um....I think you mean oversteer. Folks add a larger swaybar to FWD cars to help them rotate in a turn.

Saoul-Virage > CKeffer
12/17/2014 at 16:20

On some cars, a rear sway bar get the rear of the car very steady and it's "push" the front of the car to understeer.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
12/17/2014 at 16:22

It may be a decent stopgap solution. If you ever do a major suspension overhaul, I highly recommend swapping out the old shock inserts in favor of Koni yellows, and welding on a tab while the shock is out. As for springs, weld-on GC are pretty great, but if you lower the car any more than 1.5" or so, you run out of front travel REALLY fast. I've run like 4 different setups on this car, and so far the GC/Koni/T3 combo has been the best by far. If you ever have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

CKeffer > Saoul-Virage
12/17/2014 at 16:37

Never heard of this. In all applications I am familiar with, a rear sway bar results in a greater tendency to oversteer due to it's limiting effect on the motion of the rear suspension which in turn limits the traction the rear tires can achieve mid corner (the hiked rear tire behavior most FWD car with an after market RSB). Front sway bars improve turn in, but can exacerbate a FWD car's tendency to understeer as well. It's honestly not uncommon for a RWD autocross car to run with a HUGE front sway bar, and no RSB to help reduce their tendency to oversteer. Now, stiffer rear shocks will increase a car's tendency to understeer, but a thicker RSB will not to the best of my knowledge. Do you have some examples of the behavior you are referring to?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig
12/17/2014 at 16:48

I think that it should work. The mounting bracket they sent seems sturdy, and it should spread the weight out enough that it won't get ripped through. I already did a full suspension rebuild, but didn't notice the lack of a sway-bar attachment at the time. My setup at the moment is koni yellows wrapped in eibach springs (fronts feel good, but I'm not sold on the rate at the back; we'll see what happens with the arb) with new end-links, tie rods, ball joints, poly bushings, etc from TwosRUs and riding on Direzzas. Everything between the chassis and the ground has been upgraded, rebuilt, or replaced as needed. I don't really want to lower it too much. In fact, I'm probably going to get a second set of struts and springs to raise it so I can rally it. I was thinking about going with the GC kit, but it seemed like it would be more complicated, especially since that means that I'd have to weld in the camber plates. Also, while being able to dial in the ride height would be sweet, I was worried that it might not go tall enough at its highest setting. It seemed like lowered was the starting position on the GCs. Even as is, it's absolutely spectacular. It's been tons of fun.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
12/17/2014 at 16:51

You don't weld on camber plates, the only welding is the spring perch on the strut tube.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig
12/17/2014 at 16:55

Oh, sweet. That changes everything. Theoretically, that means that I can weld it a bit lower and have the top of the height range raised, right, or does it have to be welded in one specific spot?

Saoul-Virage > CKeffer
12/18/2014 at 07:22

I guess I was confused between the effect of front sway bar and stiffer rear shocks so my head goes "stiff rear sway bar => understeer". What you said totally make sense. Thanks for your explanations.

CKeffer > Saoul-Virage
12/18/2014 at 09:27

Not a problem, it's honestly a super common misconception, glad I was able to clear it up for you :)

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
12/18/2014 at 11:23

I welded mine as low as I could so they are sitting right on top of the sway bar tabs. I love the ability to run higher rates than normal spring kits (I'm currently running 250lb front, 350lb rear) but don't expect to be able to go super low. The front just doesn't have enough travel. I think if I were starting over, I might give BC coilovers a try since they have shorter stroke shock bodies that thread up and down rather than just adjusting spring height.

My complete setup is as follows, in case you're curious

GC weld-on kit from twosrus with 250f, 350r springs, T3 camber plates and T3 roller bearing top spring hats, and koni adjustable shocks

Prothane poly bushings everywhere, twosrus heim joint rear toe arms, ST sway bars f/r with High & Tight heim joint adjustable end links

I like to run -2.5* camber, 0 toe, max caster on the front, -2* camber 0 toe in the back, maybe a teeny bit of toe in. Good compromise for daily driving/autocross.