BlythBros: Picking up the 164Q in New York City

"BlythBros." (blythbros) 12/04/2014 at 08:00 • Filed to: None

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I was tired of dealing with sub-zero temperatures in State College. My roommates and I worried that we'd forgotten what heat felt like after three straight months of biking to work in the snow. The 16V 190E was parked indefinitely and it was too cold to do anything besides parse through Fortran in a warm office. Graham saw the opportunity and took advantage of my frostbitten brain—-he sent me a link to a red Alfa 164Q with the subject 'buy this car'.

Up until that day I'd been entertained by Graham's stories about Alfa failures of every degree. He insisted they're still 'great cars' but they just need a little more care, attention, and money than most others. I knew he had anywhere from one to four of these Alfas under his control and had already done some major engine rebuilding. This somehow didn't deter me in my search for a new unique vehicle. He also lauded their finer points, of course. I'd gotten tired of him talking about the 'peanut butter leather' interior of his 164 and how much fun it was to drive. I decided to give the Alfa some consideration because I figured I probably needed a third car if I was going to make it through grad school. Graham had even let me wear his Alfa hat a couple of times, and I felt I needed to truly earn a hat of my own.

I'll be honest. The 164Q just looked awesome. I saw it with its strange gray cladding, Euro-spec headlights, Ansa tips, and those beautiful 17" Azevs, and I knew it was just the wedge I wanted to drive. And yeah, it had those chrome runners as centerpieces for the red-wrapped valve covers. Even in the online posting's parking-lot background the car just stood out. I'd only ever seen a base model 164 in person and the Q's trim really suited it in my eye. The car was located on Long Island and the seller seemed like a nice enough guy after spending an hour or so with him on the phone. Graham went over the finer points of the 3.0 24V and explained just about every way it could break. He knew we'd have to do the timing belt as soon as possible as it hadn't been done in about 20000 miles.

My dad and I set out one cold sunny Saturday to Copiague, NY to see it in person. We met the owner at his house in a nice little neighborhood. He was an energetic man named Maciek (like Magic Johnson, he told me) and was pleased to see us. He worked at a local exotic car garage, which I would imagine does fairly well on Long Island. He told me he'd sourced most of the parts from his brothers in Poland who got the lights and wheels at discounted prices and then sent them back to the US. He enthusiastically added that he'd repaired all the door handles himself and that the car was in good running order. It started right up from cold and I was concerned—-it was loud. It was essentially straight-piped to those dual Ansa tips—-reported scoured from a '69 Dino at his shop. The 24 valves were running as they should and there was no question that it was one of the best exhaust notes I'd ever heard. My dad was also in awe and later had to take me aside to remind me that cars are more than just fancy-looking engines and screaming exhaust notes.

We climbed in and Majiek showed us around the Polish town. He topped 7k on the tach on several occasions and I couldn't believe how long the gears were. The interior was worn, but about where a 20-year-old car should be. The crazy fighter-jet controls and LCD display worked and the seats moved as they should have. Maciek calmly explained the work he had done and pointed out various interesting delis and potholes as we cruised around. The wooden steering wheel went well with the tan leather and carpets. There were definitely interior issues with the dash drying and cracking as well as a ripped seatbelt, but I was more focused on finding a solid mechanical car. If I recall, it wasn't even possible to open the rear passenger door from the inside. But I pushed this back in my mind. Back-burner problems.

As I took it out for a quick drive I was surprised by how quickly the engine responded. It had great torque across the band and sounded even better from the driver's seat. I scooted the car around the sea-side town (avoiding the major potholes at the request of the navigator) and was pleased. The new clutch felt great and the steering feel was remarkable for a car of its size. Afterwards Maciek invited us to his 'man-cave' to discuss things. It was an amazing man-cave. The barn-door basement entrance led to a room full of exotic wheels, Recaro seats, and even turbos. He told us that he collected a few things. It was clear that he was passionate about his vehicles which is a comforting thing to know while buying a car. I was a little worried about his somewhat unclear reason for selling it, but I was able to talk the price to where I wanted it and he even threw in all the extra Alfa parts he had at the price. I was pleased and told him I'd be back in a week to pick it up.

I spent the week busy as ever and had to make plans to get the car back to PA. This involved a bus ride to Penn Station, a train to central Long Island, and a ride in Maciek's Volvo to a Long Island DMV. This Volvo was probably the nicest I'd ever seen. It sat on Ferarri 3-piece wheels and its exhaust protruded from the side of the rear bumper. It absolutely screamed through gears and I asked him if he'd done some work to it. He had a turbo from the S60/V70 R and cams from some crazy boat engine. It sounded as amazing as it looked. The red paint was perfect and the bodywork looked like it had been performed by some Swedish tuning company. He humbly added that he enjoyed this car a little too much and that he spent entirely too much time working on it. After a successful DMV visit (rare occasion) I was on my way back across Long Island in the Volvo to take the Alfa home. I thanked Maciej for everything and he even threw in another box of nice parts—-a pack of coils and a new fuel filler door. I struggled with the alien heat controls and headed west. About 5 hours later, I found myself in central Manhattan. I'd never been one to enjoy driving in cities and this wasn't helping. My phone was dead and I hadn't remembered to bring a GPS. I was actually on the same block for over two hours as cars just filled the intersection. I had to turn the car off (I was unaware of the cars 15/21 mileage rating at the time) and just coast towards the bridge that was just out of reach.

Miserable return trip aside, I was really enjoying the Alfa. It drove so well on highways and was able to scoot along when needed. It was a bit on the loud side, so I got a small glasspack put in the exhaust when I got it back to York. Its next stop was our garage for a quick belt update. Quick in this sense means an entire weekend. I had no idea how intricate the timing tools and tensioning sequence would be. Luckily, I had Alfisti Graham at home to help swear as we sliced through allen wrenches and knuckles trying to reach impossible bolts. Only a few trips to parts stores were needed—-Graham had all the tools ready and the cam locks on loan from the friendly US Alfa society.

I had another summer in Knoxville approaching, and a squat Alfa with no air conditioning seemed to fit the bill. I'd actually made my roommates promise to not let me bring the Mercedes back to the South, so it wasn't too tough of a decision. I managed to fit a road bike and a 29er mountain bike as well as several computers and everything else I'd need for my time in Tennessee. This included every tool I own, which took up the entire trunk. Graham had me paranoid about any sort of car issue and I didn't want to be stranded without a few good breaker bars. Knoxville gave me some extra sunlight hours to bring the car up to where I wanted it. This included several parking-lot serpentine belt adjustments in order to squelch a squealing bearing as well as conditioning the stiff leather. The car got plenty of attention from those who knew what it was and also from those who didn't. One guy had to ask me what it was because he couldn't read the cursive Alfa Romeo script. I was fortunate to experience no major failures while getting it to Knoxville and I owe a lot of thanks to Graham, as well as some friends down south who drove me to parts stores for the two or so weeks when it was out of commission due to a sheared idler bolt. Soon enough Graham would be the one to find a rare 164Q engine just fifteen minutes from where I lived, and getting that engine to Detroit would prove to be its own story.

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michael bleggi > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 00:31

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great story. I have a house in mechanicsburg (near harrisburg/york) as well as one in the borough of state college, hopefully ill see this little alfa scooting around somewhere!

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 08:34

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I say it every time, becuase it's true. I miss my 164-S. That was a great car.

I once was offered a chance to buy a Q4, the price was very reasonable, but I was just out of college and $18K was a shit-load of money... just think, I could have had an AWD 6-speed one of these if I had been able to scrape the money together. Rumor says that Alfa lost over $100,000 on every Q4 sold because it used exactly the same computer-controlled multi-electronic-differential-tourque-vectoring AWD system as the 155TiV6 super touring racecar. A car that still holds the record for touring car victories having won BTCC, ST, DTM, STCC and FIA Touring World Championships... a car that made BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Opel quake in fear... I want to open my trunk and see a server-chassis-sized carpet-covered lump of computers that control the AWD system... a lump of computers from when a desktop PC had less power than a feature-phone... argh. No one even really seems to know how many made it to the USA legally... maybe 30....

BlythBros. > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 12/04/2014 at 08:50

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Which ST do you drive and how does it compare to the 164? I have a Fiesta ST and I think the 164Q is just as fun to drive.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 14:06

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I also have a FieSTa, there is no doubt in my mind that the ST is faster in every dimension than the 164, but the 164-S was the first vehicle I ever drove, (and the first vehicle driven by many of the people I let drive it) that made me a whole-hearted believer in the idea that a FWD car could not only handle in a numerical sense (Gs and slalom MPH and shit...) but could also be a genuine joy to fling around on a demanding road. The steering feel is excellent, the brakes are amazingly strong for their diameter (if a bit prone to fade), the chassis balance is neutral and tossable and correctable... the shifter and clutch have a "feeling" about them, you know what I mean... and then that V6 hits 5000+ RPM and goes from growl, to snarl to scream and all is right with the world. Best mid-size FWD I have driven yet.

TurboS60 > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 15:55

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That is such an awesome car! Love the look of the motor! I'm jealous, ok I said it. Also that Volvo is fap worthy!

MK6GTI-now with added Miata > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 15:59

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"...cars are more than just fancy-looking engines and screaming exhaust notes."

But the other parts aren't nearly as important.

Auditt17 > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 16:04

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Hey where are you in state college? I live on south allen street and should have my car out next semester and would love to check out the alfa!

golfball > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 16:08

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Looks like it can be yours for $5,000:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa…

PostOMatic2000 > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 16:09

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When I was first out of college, my boss had one. I took it for a drive one and man that thing blew me away! I had never driven anything so nice or so fast before. He ran the One Lap of America with it in 1993 and placed 61st.

1993 One Lap

PostOMatic2000 > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 16:09

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Oh, and do this to it.

Joseph > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 16:14

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Beautiful Car, hopefully I can find one that clean here in so cal

ChickenMcBooty > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 16:21

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Great post. I always loved that damn 164

Makoyouidiot > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 16:33

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Ack that color...it looks just like my S did. I want that car back

russkunkel > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 16:38

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Because I didn't want the hassle with the bullshit of the private sales process I gave my 164S away to a friend. That car was spotless (no interior wear on the black leather at all) with only a broken exterior door handle (yes the steel of the handle broke in half) and had a slew of service records, including a full engine rebuild from arguable the best Alfa shop in the midwest before I returned to the East Coast.

My family has and still has a love affair with alfa's (drove them, raced them in SCCA), but that car was the worst alfa we ever had. That has nothing to do with reliability, but it was the least Afla like Alfa ever. It was front wheel drive, drove like a couch in comparison to the spider, gtv-6 and milano, I did however like the engine, but as a whole package it just didn't really work. Not a bad car, just missing the a certain something that makes Alfa's unique from my perspective, but Pininfarina does know a bit about coachwork that car still looks decent almost 25 years after introduction in '91 if I remember my dates right.

ThePro > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 16:38

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Amazing car. My parents had a 33 back in the 90s-early 2000s. That thing felt apart if you didn't maintain it right, and at some point it just got too expensive to keep in shape, so we sold it to a Maciek of sorts, who got it in shape, but sold it after a few months. Alfas were amazing cars. (I don't have much love for their current lineup)

BlythBros. > MK6GTI-now with added Miata 12/04/2014 at 16:53

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Coming from our dad, owner of a Big Block El Camino and an '88 911...

dbpc > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 16:58

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Nice article man. Haven't seen you at car club for a while. You should stop by when we have our big show next year. Crosby

Alfa75 > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 16:58

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I met a Polish guy from Long Island a few years ago at a Euro cruise day in Massachusetts who had a tuned Volvo (850 if I recall). It had seats quoted to be from a Ferrari 308 and calipers from a Euro model Alfa that his family had sent over from a junk yard in Poland. He also worked at a Euro shop. I can't remember his name but I am wondering if he was the same guy. I was driving my R32 at the time but we discussed my Alfa which I didn't bring out that day.

'Wägen, EPA LOL > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 17:04

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You'll need this, plus all those parts.

DTM1 > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 17:07

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Please, its a "Q4" not a "Q".
Take care of it is a special car, very few of these top models had been made.
Also, be careful of the gearbox. Its a Getrag unit, so really bulletproof, but not available anymore! So if you break it... uups...

Joe Stevenson > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 17:07

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Good god, those pipes are gorgeous.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > russkunkel 12/04/2014 at 17:11

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*ahem* introduced to the European market in 1987. Did your S still have the dual-mode suspension? if someone ripped out the electro-dampers and replaced them the non-adjustable Koni inserts that fit the S spindles it becomes a barcalounger. with the adjustable Konis fitted and tuned correctly, or the electro-struts in working condition I find the S to be a staggeringly good FWD car. No, it won't drift like a GTV6 or break a G on the skidpad with street tires like a Milano will, but mine was a damn fine car. It had 430K miles on it when we parted ways (I had to replace the cams because the lobes were worn down. Junkyard S cams!)

O'Verboost, Where Art Thou > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 17:21

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Great post, and a amazing car. I almost bought one but settled on a Saab 9000 Turbo. Same plateform but a very different driving experience.

Enjoy.

russkunkel > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 12/04/2014 at 17:28

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I'm talking about the US market and I think that was 1991, I think US distribution was 91-95, but not sure.

It was bought new, in Northern New Jersey at Bobcor motors. I gave it away about 3 years ago about with 177K on it after it sitting covered in a garage for 4 years, I never used it, it just wasn't fun for me and I realized that I was just keeping it to keep it.

People can argue with me until their blue in the face it was the least alfa like car I and the extended family have every owned and we do have significant experience with Alfa's and still do a fair amount with the vintage Alfas.t.

You like what you like, I like what I like, the car wasn't a true Alfa to me.

Sethism > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 17:39

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I see the car is currently FS on the Alfabb classifieds. Thank God you're not based in St. Louis, or I'd be selling one of my current fleet to get this one. What a car.

majorbloodnok > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 17:41

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My Mum used to have one of those and passed it down to me when I was in college. It was in black with black cladding which was a great look. Loved it but sadly it spit its gearbox out on the motorway late one night

BlythBros. > russkunkel 12/04/2014 at 17:46

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Um, sounds like you have an awesome family.

And fair enough, but as a 'normal' car, it really excels. I really prefer a 164 to any other sports sedan (because I'm not cool enough to use RWD skillz on the street). My Milano Verde is more fun, but I'd rather drive the 164 across the country.

BlythBros. > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 12/04/2014 at 17:48

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Oh boy. S cams. Never bring them up on the BB! (congrats on the junkyard find)

BlythBros. > russkunkel 12/04/2014 at 17:49

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I think the least Alfa Alfa beats most other cars.

BlythBros. > Makoyouidiot 12/04/2014 at 17:50

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I permit you to buy it back.

BlythBros. > ChickenMcBooty 12/04/2014 at 17:51

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Thanks! Same!

bonkers > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 17:55

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That thing looks DOPE with the white fuel filler door. I'm not kidding

zziro > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 18:17

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What's a Q? Wikipedia only describes the QV and the Q4.

russkunkel > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 18:28

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Not really, they just like Alfa's, other than that same type of family anyone else has.

It was comfortable for sure, but that was part of my issue with it, maybe a bit too disconnected from what a traditional Alfa driving experience was like and for Alfa that was probably a good thing as they tried to become relevant in the US. It was a great cruising car for the highway, not a tight twisties car.

The average person in the US market likely didn't want what the typical Alfa driving experience was up to that point, noisy, bumpy, connected, and really about performance through the corners, versus straight line speed and comfort. My Milano Platinum was an incredible car even though when I had them (I had 3 at one point) I hated the aesthetic, it looked like it got hit right in the ass end, it was truncated, looking back I do like it now though, because it's has angles and isn't "smooth". That car was a fun road car and an great track car, we rebuilt that with new springs, bars, cage, fuel cell, etc. and it was great at places like Lime Rock, The Glen and Summit Point.

That 164 didn't doom them in the US market it was not enough media spend to dispel the notion of Alfa Romeo = Italian Car = shitty maintenance headache, ARDONA inability to get our of their own way and establish a meaningful dealer network - it was like a fucking hunt for a dealer if you weren't familiar with the cars and didn't know an indy.

By the way, I'm not knocking your car at all, I know it sounds that way. I'd like to drive a 164Q4, that would be an interesting comparison from the FWD version.

TooManyCarsMike > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 18:51

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A buddy of mine had one of these (it looked like this but I dont recall the exact model) while we were in Italy with a turbocharged motor. it was a cool looking car and seemed pretty quick but reliable it was not. It sucked because he wasn't mechanically inclined and I didn't have a lot of time to help him with it. I think it overheated and blew the headgasket and he sold it shortly after. His had the transaxle in the rear, not sure if its the same on these cars.

Nice find! I love unique cars. Alfas have always scared me but Id love to own one some day.

C-Ki > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 19:05

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after so many years, this car is still so beautiful...

I love this...

Thanks for buying it !

JamEng, PE > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 19:08

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Oddly enough, there was a topic on the radio just this week about what what the fastest you've ever gone on public roads and one of the hosts mentioned the fastest he'd ever went was in an Alfa 164S.

BlythBros. > zziro 12/04/2014 at 19:12

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It's the Quadrifoglio (I think they call it the QV on wikipedia). 232hp 24V w/ the body kit, sport seats, and adjustable shocks. Sold em in 94 and 95 in the States.

BlythBros. > russkunkel 12/04/2014 at 19:18

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Interesting perspective.

As for the demise of Alfa, I can see how the marketing was an issue. In 91 or 93 a 164L beat out 6 or so euro competitors in a Car and Driver shoot-out. I don't think content was the issue. It's similar to the recent Suzuki Kizashi - nice car, but where do you tow it when something breaks?

And don't worry, I know exactly what you mean with the 164 driving dynamic - I just interpret it in a different way. To me, it's a comfortable sedan with some Alfa personality and smart styling. Plus, it's my brother's car. I'm Graham with the Milano: http://blythbros.com/alfa-milano-ve…

Thud Slamrod > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 19:18

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If only a writer had crapped their pants this would be the most jalop story ever.

Mitchell M. Bennett > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 21:06

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Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job I've had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $77 per hour. I work through this link, go to tech tab for work detail

———————————> http://www.jobs700.com

Ben > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 21:19

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I was looking to find something else after having all the fun I could in my Mercedes 190e Sportline LE and I found one of these out here in LA. I wanted it so bad! It was spotless too. But I needed a bigger car so I ended up with a 2001 E55. But, I still think about that 164Q. I oozed personality. The type of personality that only comes with late 80s early 90s cars that everyone except us cars guys appreciate. Oh, what could have been....

Makoyouidiot > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 21:53

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Heh, I wish I could...man that was a cool car, even if mine was well into the crack pipe side of the chart.

Dem Borbet rims, yo.

SilverPantherIsSilver > BlythBros. 12/04/2014 at 22:15

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No video of this glorious exhaust? I thought that was what them there innerwebs was for! For shame!

Vic788 > BlythBros. 12/05/2014 at 00:27

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Vic788 > Vic788 12/05/2014 at 00:28

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The Real Dacia Sandero > BlythBros. 12/05/2014 at 00:47

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I've got family in Knoxville and go down there about once a month. If we're there at the same time we should go for a drive. I'm a big Alfa fan and would love to check it out. I've got a '91 Miata and a family member just got a 450+ hp Bullitt edition Mustang.

becausecars > BlythBros. 12/05/2014 at 01:52

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the volvo tho...

Fuel_of_Satan > PostOMatic2000 12/05/2014 at 05:13

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Expletives! Lot's of expletives! To save some time for anyone else that need to know more, "ProCar V10 Alfa 164" are reasonable search cues.

slickrick > BlythBros. 12/05/2014 at 08:56

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Great story and a beautiful car. Didn't Alfa offer these with a Ferrari v8 too? I had it's platform mate, an 89' SAAB 9000 Turbo. Great car for the size and surprisingly fast. Enjoy!

BlythBros. > slickrick 12/05/2014 at 09:49

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Thanks! Lancia offered the Ferrari V8 but with a cross plane crank.

The Alfa shared little with the others on the platform - it's quite an improvement in my opinion. I do like 9000s though.

Roadster Man > BlythBros. 12/05/2014 at 10:02

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Awesome! A guy in my neighborhood has had a 164 sitting in his driveway for years. I want it.

wannabehulk > BlythBros. 12/05/2014 at 10:30

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Awesome story!

russkunkel > BlythBros. 12/05/2014 at 13:33

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That what I meant with the ARDONA (Alfa Romeo Dealers of North America) comment, those guys had their head in their ass, they couldn't recruit new dealers and the dealer network sucked. If you broke down you were fucked.

I know it did well against the category when compared side by side, but the damage of years of pissing and moaning about how shitty Italian car quality was was not going to be overcome by one car. That car had to do some decent volume to be meaningful and would you "risk" an italian car with the shitty quality perception or go with the "precision" of german engineering......unless you were an alfisti or just fell in love with that car and could rationalize it, you're likely picking the german.

I loved my Verde, my father smashed it to shit at Waktins Glen, so we scrapped it. It was a great track car, before that I had a tight race like suspension on it and it cornered like it was on rails, but it was too low (and no, not some stanced bullshit) and the roads in NYC were eating it up so we made it into a track car.

My verde was the exact same car as yours. I'd get one again, but I'd never use it properly, so I resist, I'm now indulging my love of cars from that I drove in high school year by acquiring 1970's Toyota Land Cruisers. In high school I could pick them up cheaply used, but that's another story.

But I am on the secret lookout for a GTV6 and if I could find the bones of a Giulia priced right that I could make passable it would make a nice gift for my niece when she goes to college.

BeO42 > BlythBros. 12/05/2014 at 17:01

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Thanks for the story. I had a nice metallic green 3.0 -90 myself, bought it used in the autumn of -95. Looked just like the one in this pic (except for the interior, I had black leather).

Funny how every 164 owner has had issues with the door handles :) A bearing in my gear box gave up, shot a bearing ball through the outer casing. About $2000 later I had a used replacement gear box installed.

Still one of my old cars that I miss the most. The design holds up very well. I consider it one of the best looking four door saloons. Fell in love with it when it first was unveiled back in -87 and still love those lines. And that engine... pure bliss. And quite agile for its size.

I had the electrically adjustable rear seats, haven't seen that option in many cars beside S-Klasse and the likes. But a broken AC meant seriously hot seats during the summer months.

Good luck with your car, I'm sure you'll have many fun miles ahead of you!