The $64K Question, Or Why The ATS-V Shoulda Got A V8

"PardonMyFlemish16" (TheCoolKid) 11/26/2014 at 14:50 • Filed to: None

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You are a young, handsome, mid level manager (according to marketing agencies) with the need for speed, refinement, and 4 seats... and it just so happens you have the means to finance a $64,000 depreciating asset. No need for AWD as you live somewhere warm and exotic like Malibu, CA or Charlotte, NC.

What is a young man to do??!?!??!?

Well, right now in my opinion there are 3 viable options, shown above. 2 of which are likely the best of their breed at the moment, and one of which isn't, for reasons I'll explain.

M4- The Architect's Choice

Say what you want about this M3 vs its predecessors- Lord knows I will. It looks boring and sounds like an Alpina D3. But it makes a real 500HP (or at least it dynos 20% more HP than the 414HP E9x), has an interior worthy of its price, and is an honest-to-god 4 seater. Dimensionally it's not much smaller, if at all, than what folks born before Taylor Swift would call a 5 series, and I'm pretty sure it is as fast as an M5 with the DCT.

*frantic C&D search*

Yep, it's got the same straight line punch as the M5/M6 with about 600-700lbs of weight lost. In other words, it's everything the M5 was supposed to be, and is closer to the ones we remember and love in pretty much every way.

Not to mention, of course, there is the brand snob appeal, which lets face it is no less legit than things we love, like "brown diesel manuals that are not actually fun to drive" and "crazy impractical builds". For all its missteps and follies BMW still means a lot and builds great road cars. And for some, that roundel means a lot more than some proletariat brand, like... a Ford *bleegghhchchhh*

GT350- The Objectivist's Choice

When the 2011 Rustang GT knocked the E92 M3 off its balance in various track comparisons, I bet BMW shit its collective unterhosen . The GT-R may be the underdog in the exotica fight, but let's face facts- the GT-R has moved itself from this price bracket to the price bracket of actual exotics. There are non-NISMO GT-R trims that cost more than a GT3. Who is buying GT-Rs for GT3 money???!??!? You can't be an underdog at the same prices as the real thing!

Where was I? Right, the Mustang. The return of the 5.0. I don't know how to find my old articles but I wrote an ode to the Coyote lump (and a cautionary tale about the Ecoboost), so if you can find it you can see what I have to say about it. In any case, the 2011 GT managed to keep up with the M3 around tracks, despite still riding on a horse and carriage rear suspension. God bless America.

Well, now BMW has moved the performance envelope forward, but disconcertingly, they cut weight, which was a problem with the E9x, but they ditched the V8, which was the best thing about it. Meanwhile, with pressure mounting from the Z/28, Ford has been forced to answer back with a track focused Mustang, utilizing its all new 20th century platform (snicker snicker).

And boy did they.

Specs are still not concrete, but just the engine alone puts this car on a whole nother level. Go ahead. Go on Edmunds.com "car finder" and search "cross plane V8" under features. What cars will you get back? Measly stuff... like FERRARIS AND MASERATIS , with the errant PORSCHE 918 thrown in. And this thing is not blown either. 9,000 RPM from a big brawny V8 in a track focused chassis. O, and the interior is worthy of a $30-40K car in 2014 (which to me is like a $60K car as all my cars are used), AND the stance is right. If you just want the most focused 4 seater for what will probably be $50-60K, is there anything better than this?

ATS-V- The Bewildering Choice

Which leaves us with the ATS-V. Full disclosure, I am not a fan of the ATS or CTS. They are good cars, but they are the wrong cars for Cadillac, and IMO the ATS takes that wrongness up to 11.

The main problem is the aping of the Germans in a market starving for German alternatives. The last CTS-V was a huge hit, because while it wasn't as refined as an M5, it SCREAMED 'MRRRCA with that mighty supercharged LS4, and was "good enough". What GM has now is a store brand 3 series, where I think people either want something totally different, or a 3 series with Mrrcn brawn. The ATS-V turns that up to 11, with a pansy ass Euro 6 compliant V6 where a rootin' tootin' LT1 is supposed to be.

Which leads me to the question of who exactly this is supposed to be for. Even at a discount to the M3/4, I am not sure the ATS-V will be a good value. $10K is a lot of money, even to our hypothetical brand manager at an LA ad firm. But then, would said brand manager be caught dead... in a CADILLAC? Methinks not.

Then on the other side, you have the construction tool salesman riding this wave of cheap money from the Fed. He can do a 4 figure car note, and when he pulls up to job sites or local bars down in the Southeast he wants to make a statement. "I got money, but I aint lost mah reouts. Im a MRRCN." What's he gonna go for? The brawny Mustang with the V8 that sounds like Satan's death cry, or the Pontiac 6000 STE reborn, with an engine that will probably sound like something from the Jetsons?

No, no, no, NO!!!!!!!! Cadillac's identity is lost in the wilderness. Cadillac will NEVER make inroads in Europe or "bring the fight to the Germans" anywhere outside of a C&D comparo, no matter how good of a 3 series clone they build. They just don't get it. It's not about the cars there. That is why BMW can sell MPVs. And they are setting the tone in China, so this is not necessary either. If Cadillac wants to take its rightful place back, and actually give the Germans a scare, they have to go back to their roots and do what they do best.. And there's only one way to do that.

michael bleggi > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 14:57

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"Cadillac will NEVER make inroads in Europe"

idk, i kinda hope they do. i'd suggest taking a ride in a a CTS-V.. it probably isn't what you'd expect

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 14:59

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Cadillac, a brand that was built on cylinderey excess, not offering more than a six in a popular model? Utter. Horseshit. V8-16 or GTFAC. I don't care what 80s Sevilles or whatever were limited to, they're not what Cadillac is *about*.

Steve in Manhattan > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 15:02

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Before I was halfway through the headline I thought: "The answer is M4."

Brian Silvestro > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 15:02

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no thanks

DoYouEvenShift > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 15:05

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The ATSV is fine the way it is. Want a V8, wait for the CTSV.

And in my opinion Cadillac will never be BMW. And thats a good thing. They are very good at what they do. The V series cars are a big F U to the luxury performance market. BMW to me says, look how fancy I am, look at my propeller! The V cars say, yeah I'm a luxury car, but you WILL look at my taillights.

Milky > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 15:05

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Or if you have kids.

PardonMyFlemish16 > DoYouEvenShift 11/26/2014 at 15:12

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If Cadillac will never be a BMW, why did they benchmark and completely ape BMWs for the ATS/CTS?

It sounds like you are agreeing with me. If Cadillac doesn't want to be BMW it should create distance. What better way to do that than with an honest-to-god V8 over a pansy ass blown V6? Leave that shit for Opel... I mean Buick.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 15:17

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Why is it that every post you make like this hates on Cadillac? It's not like the "wrongness" of the ATS or CTS has put them back on the road to success or anything. If Cadillac went back to their roots they'd be making gigantic land yachts that no one but people over 80 would buy. Sure, they could've shoved the LT1 under the hood, but the 3.6TT is a more modern approach rather than "Yup, just shove a V8 in there." Not to mention pushrods aren't as refined as a DOHC setup. And last I checked Cadillacs are about refinement. Even the new M3 doesn't return to its high revving N/A I6 roots. They slapped turbos on. That's what performance cars are having to move to to keep up with fuel economy regulations and still make stupid amounts of power.

As for the GT350, that's not even in the same class. That's like comparing a Challenger Hellcat and M3 just because their prices are the same.

DoYouEvenShift > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 15:23

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Benchmarking them does not mean they are trying to turn into them. The styling alone says this. BMW is very conservative with the styling, V is very in your face, get out of my way.

I honestly have no idea what BMW is using for engines. They change it so much, inline sixes, V10s, turbo V8s. Before you know it, they'll be using rotaries. I'm all for big pushrod V8s, believe me. But Im sure the 3.6 will hold its own just fine. CTSV will get a big honkin V8 though. Something for everyone.

BarryDanger > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 15:38

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you have the construction tool salesman riding this wave of cheap money from the Fed

That guy buys this thing.

briannutter1 > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 16:14

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If the LT1 was available as an option, I wonder what percentage would pick it. Luckily, we'll see LT swapped Caddy ATS V's by next Sema likely as it shares the same platform as the Gen 6 Camaro.

Jayhawk Jake > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 16:48

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$64k?

Base model + Z51. Done.

If I absolutely must have a back seat I'm picking the ATS. I like the ATS and CTS, and if history repeats itself reviewers are going to like everything about the ATS more than the M4 except for the lack of a BMW roundel.

Otherwise I'd probably wait to see what's in store for the 2016 Camaro. It's going on the ATS platform and has the potential to blow the competition out of the water.

Jayhawk Jake > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 16:50

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Benchmarking and aping are two different things. I don't think Cadillac aped BMW, but they did benchmark them. Why? Because that's what you do: BMW leads the segment so your goal is to be better than them, might as well start by looking at how they do it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, if you think otherwise you must not have experience designing a product

DoYouEvenShift > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 11/26/2014 at 17:45

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Woah there, this again? Pushrods arent as refined as ohcs? Both do their job, just a different means to the same end.

djmt1 > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 18:40

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Man I wish I lived somewhere warm and exotic but since I don't, I shall stick to AWD Super-Estates.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > DoYouEvenShift 11/26/2014 at 18:40

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Pushrods work fine, but they're just a little louder and vibrate a little more than OHCs.

I'm not putting down pushrods, and I'm definitely not putting down an SBC. Shit, two cars at my house have pushrod SBC and SBC-based engines. But GM's engineers know what they wanted to accomplish and that meant using a TTV6 over a V8.

DoYouEvenShift > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 11/26/2014 at 18:45

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Hey Im all for the TT ATSV. I just hate when people put that pushrod engines.

And Ive driven plenty of noisy/shaky cars of both ohc and pushrod design.

PardonMyFlemish16 > Jayhawk Jake 11/26/2014 at 19:28

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Well, IMO, from a business standpoint, benchmarking the E46 and going for the whole "dynamics" thing was the wrong move. How so? Well, GM has to put nearly 10K on the hoods of ATSs to get them to sell, and sales figures have been very disappointing. Similarly, in the ~8 years since the E46 went out of production, BMW itself has moved the goalposts. Reviewers lament the 3 going soft, but BMW got away from focusing on dynamics because it realized most of its customers don't care about them, at least to the degree that they were prioritized in prior generations. No, the new 3 has a big back seat, efficient and powerful engines and a premium feel, all the way to the gauge cluster. These are all things the typical luxury buyer is looking for before anything else, including dynamics. The time for this was 10 or even 20 years ago, when dynamics were king and the market was wide open.

GM dropped the ball on pretty much everything BMW realized were the new priorities, and now with this they have missed another opportunity to create value for customers. This thing is gonna go the way of the STS-V.

And GM did ape the 3- look how close the exterior dimensions are. Fractions of inches.

IMO GM would have been better served by something like a "super Volt"... a $50K plug in hybrid with 5 legit seats and good looks. Basically a poor man's Tesla with a range extender. Something like that is way more relevant to today's marketplace than "tight handling" and "Brembo brakes". And I am a dude who drives a sports car and rides a motorcycle.

Jayhawk Jake > PardonMyFlemish16 11/26/2014 at 19:58

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You sound a bit BMW fanboyish here, which isn't helping your case IMO

Dimensions being close doesn't mean GM aped the BMW, it means they are similar cars in the same class. Look at any range of direct competitors and you'll probably see similar numbers.

The product isn't the problem with the ATS. Most reviewers think it's better than the BMW competition in many ways. The problem is advertising. When was the last time you saw an ATS advertised? Meanwhile BMW ads are everywhere. GM is behind on sales but certainly not behind on product. They did nothing wrong with designing it and everything wrong when selling it.