Hate to be a prude

"1337HPMustang" (1337hpmustang) 11/25/2014 at 17:03 • Filed to: None

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but the z28 doesn't seem like an innovative car...

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the C6 z06/z07. That ls7, the amazing handling, the ability to hang with !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , it's one of the best sports cars ever built. But the z28 seems to owe its track prowess mostly to things like tires, brakes and suspension. That shouldn't be a problem but for the price of a supercar beater like the z06/z07... I bet if you took a pedestrian SS and stuck on the same tires ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ), gave it bigger brakes, a less restrictive exhaust, and gave it a tighter suspension, you could touch the z28 and still have 20 large in pocket.

I'm not bitter that the z28 is faster than any mustang but looking at the car critically I don't see the value for the dollar. Realizing that boss 302s, which offers similar equipment upgrades as a z28 but doesn't cost twice the price of a GT, the price of a z28 is unjustified. I get that the equipment is expensive: dssv dampers, the tires, brakes, the engine, the engineering that went into a limited production car... but for the money, used c6 z06 all the way, everyday. Who's with me!?

Edit: I realized what I'm trying to say. The z28 is one of those cars that makes me say "why would I pay that? I'll just build my own hackjob z28 from an SS for a lot less". I realize it's a naive opinion but I can't help but think that.

Your boy, BJR > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:07

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It isn't innovative.

It is, however, fast as hell.

crowmolly > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:09

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I cannot find the stat sheet that spells it out, but no, you can't build the Z/28 out of an SS for less $$.

CRider > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:09

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It's a limited run collector car that rich baby boomers will garage for 40 years, then their kids will try to sell them at auction for some exorbitant amount of money. It doesn't have to be a bargain, anybody that actually wants a $70k track car will buy a Corvette.

CRider > crowmolly 11/25/2014 at 17:10

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You might not be able to clone a Z/28 for less, but you can sure as hell build a faster car.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:10

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I couldn't agree more.

lone_liberal > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:10

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Why does it need to be innovative? It's job is to be fast around a track and be somewhat streetable. It does that. It also uses a very trick suspension that could be called innovative on a street car, but that's debatable. Putting together established tech and getting it to perform better than others have isn't something to be dismissed.

BeaterGT > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:15

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It uses a flowtie, how is that not innovative?!

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > crowmolly 11/25/2014 at 17:16

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Probably true, from the GM parts catalog...but a faster trackrat can be got for the same $ even starting from a SS....

but it won't have a factory warranty, which is a big thing for some

E. Julius > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:20

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I think there's something to be said for a well executed iteration of a classic formula. Besides, just like with any vehicle there was certainly engineering work put into it that was unique to this vehicle, so where do you draw the line as to what counts as innovative?

Seems like it could result in a lot of truly excellent vehicles—vehicles that were great because of the intangible driving experience created by how well understood component designs worked together—being discounted for no good reason.

TL;DR— a car is more than its build sheet.

crowmolly > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 11/25/2014 at 17:22

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Absolutely. You can do better for your $75k.

I just don't think you can do it with a pedestrian SS for that amount. Brake rotors alone are $4-5k.

The Transporter > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:22

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Making a muscle car turn isn't innovative?

GhostZ > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:31

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It's not. Nothing in it is new tech, it's just a lot of extremes that aren't normally seen in road cars.

pauljones > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:33

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The point here is not to be innovative or be on the bleeding edge of technology. If you want innovation and super advanced automotive technology, go buy a BMW i8. The goal here is to take known variables and elevate them as close to perfection for a given purpose as possible, cost be damned. The Z/28 does that beautifully.

As for building up a stock Camaro SS... you can't. There's a lot more to what makes the Z/28 so astoundingly fast than tires, suspension, and an LS7. The aero work, for instance, can't simply be patched on to a stock Camaro SS and expected to work. You can't simply widen the front track of a Camaro SS (at least, not with any hopes of making work right) just by going to some tuner garage. You can't add the Z/28's very sophisticated electronic suite to a stock Camaro SS. And you sure as hell wouldn't be able to integrate it all effectively, let alone get it to work so flawlessly that it will come with a warranty.

Now, that's not to say that you couldn't develop a Camaro SS that could stomp the Z/28 in one way or another. You could certainly build one that will fly up the quarter mile much faster. But just as you can't make an STi out of a WRX these days, you also can't make a Camaro SS that will outperform the Z/28 on a track as a total package.

As for the cost comparison with the recent Boss 302 - if you want a Camaro that can take down a Boss 302 for less than $75k, you can have one. It's called the SS 1LE package, and it's already been proven to be faster. It just won't come close to matching the Z/28.

Milky > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:38

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You're bitter that the Z/28 is faster than any Mustang.

Proof that it is phenomenal value.

Gamecat235 > pauljones 11/25/2014 at 17:39

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For me, the Z/28 is a Camaro that has been turned up to 11 (or maybe past it). It's not meant to compete with the Corvette. It's not meant to be cross shopped with an SS. The person who will buy the Z/28 will likely know exactly what they are getting.

pauljones > Gamecat235 11/25/2014 at 17:44

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Agreed. The complaints above have been hashed and re-hashed extensively, which is something I find somewhat amusing for a bunch of self-proclaimed enthusiasts. It's as if they don't actually understand what the Z/28 actually is. It's not really a Camaro anymore. It's a track-day badass right off the dealer floor. Those that get it, get it. Those that don't will keep complaining about its price.

1337HPMustang > pauljones 11/25/2014 at 17:46

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I suppose you're right, an SS couldn't touch the z28 for less money, but it sure as hell can come close for a lot less. That's one of the points I was trying to make, I think. If you want a track car, there are 1000 better ways to get there is seems.

I see your point though, that the quality of performance in the z28 is probably unmatched because you're paying for the engineering that went into making the components work in harmony, but then again I think of the z06/z07 and can't help but think why would you ever want a z28 over that?

1337HPMustang > Your boy, BJR 11/25/2014 at 17:52

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Thats a given. Been spanking mustangs for over a year at this point... it's just one of those cars that I say to myself "why would I pay that? I'll just build my own hackjob z28 from an SS for a lot less".

camaroboy68ss > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 17:57

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I think the extra cost is a way for Chrvy to cover R&D costs on this one off special model. You can thank another Camaro for starting that trend that I will use as an example. The Camaro in question is the most highly sought after Camaro of all time, the 69 ZL1.

The 69 ZL1 was a fairly simple idea, 427 in a base model to take drag racing. The 427 though being an all aluminum big block was what made it wild. The ZL1 motor was originally designed for CAN-AM and was never intended for street use at all. So changes had to be made to make the more "street" friendly. Now up untill 1969 Chevy would eat most of the devolopment cost for these special project that were going through the COPO system. Then managenent decided that dealers needed to burden some of the cost. While COPO 9561 (427 iron block cars) was a simple swap because the engine was already a production engine kept the option cost some what low at a couple hundred bucks due to the bigger volume of cars built.

The ZL1 on the other hand was originally a small production of 50 cars meaning that the option had to cost more per car. When the cars were delivered dealers were floored at the option cost because they were told it wouldn't be much more that a normal 427 car. The option ended up being over $4000 in 69 or more than the cost of a base Camaro convertible.

So I think the 75000 tag on a car that is limited to 500ish units is mainly to help cover Chevys ass for building it.

1337HPMustang > The Transporter 11/25/2014 at 17:58

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No that part is damn impressive!

1337HPMustang > camaroboy68ss 11/25/2014 at 18:03

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Oh yeah, the camaro with an engine option that costed... another camaro! I suppose you're right, who cares what broke schmucks like me think. The fact they made a beast out of a camaro is impressive enough and as a car enthusiast, I should just be glad they did it.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 18:04

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It makes a pretty damn good CTSCC car, with further track prepping they were allowed...

DoYouEvenShift > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 18:07

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Dont forget about the warranty. GMs already said they will fix it if it breaks. Same goes for the ZL1 and 1LE I believe. They fully expect customers to track them. The car has the capability of cars more than twice the price. And more reliable I bet. So that's gotta be worth something.

Only brakes, tires, and suspension? Thats some major components that make up a car. Sure for a little more you can get a Z06. But some people want a Z/28. Variety is good. You just can't have 1 type of car. Give people a choice. I'm looking in your direction Ford.

DoYouEvenShift > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 18:11

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Exactly, there really isnt $400 worth of rubber, steel and nylon in those Trofeo tires. But the r&d is worth something.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 20:29

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First, I'm not a Z/28 buyer, but I think what you are buying (much like the Boss 302) is the endless hours of tuning that the OE has already done.

You could, conceivably, piece together a car as fast, or faster, but how many sets of shocks, how many sets of springs, how many different bushing sets to figure out the tune that made the thing go from fast to stoopid fast. By the time YOU figured all of that out, you would have spent the hours that GM (or Ford) already has.

Same for the NISMO GTR, same for the N'Ring LFA... The NISMO is twelve seconds faster than its sister car. TWELVE! Could you figure it out? With enough resources, sir. Yes you could

briannutter1 > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 20:52

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Where to start. First we have to get past used car built up versus new car. Used car built up means we would all be driving 1g dsm fwd lasers. Could you build up a 1le for less.....yes.....if you don't care about resale value and throwing mod money down a hole and it won't be as bulletproof withou a lot of failures along the way. If we are staying new un modded versus un modded.....no manufacture ever has gone out on such a limb for a track day special ever. The Z28 will be worth more in 30 years than any c5z c6z c7z because it is the most extreme factory car built in several generations. Hellcats and gt500's semi comparable, but not as rare or "the end of an era" 427 powered. That is innovation. I'm in the middle of the argument with a modded c5z that can only keep up with a z28 with $1k in shocks and another $6k match the wheel/tire/braking package. At the end of the day though it's just another bastardized project that happens to go fast.

Milky > 1337HPMustang 11/25/2014 at 23:18

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Damn you must actually be bitter to dismiss my other comment. The fact that its faster than a Turbo S and as fast as F12 is a valid point.

1337HPMustang > Milky 11/26/2014 at 00:28

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Yeah I'm aware it's fast, we all read the motortrend article. I've taken to dismissing one sided comments that don't benefit the discussion though, and it has more to do with the annoying mustang comment. You can have your comment back but don't be surprised next time it happens.

Milky > 1337HPMustang 11/26/2014 at 01:01

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IMO it seems like your whole point was price, aka 2 'stang GTs / used C6Z / SS plus parts. But it hangs with cars that are A LOT more expensive … usually that means its good value.

And come on, you're one of the mustang guys on here. If someone called me out on my Ram post from earlier on being Chrysler biased, I'm not going to get upset and dismiss it. I am biased. Everyone is.

wafflesnfalafel > 1337HPMustang 11/26/2014 at 23:50

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I do have to admit I am with you. The z28 is an amazing and fabulous car. But I'd take the z06 over it pretty much every time. The c6 z06 never got the spotlight it would have if not eclipsed by the zr1. Other than the wide body kit it looks very similar to a stock Vette, only even a bit better with the slightly lower ride height, (unlike the new c7 version.) Both are toys - neither are going to be a daily driver - and the z06 is the better toy.

And it has round tail lights. Zee Oh Six.