I know Dougs articles are tongue in cheek

"Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell." (oppisitelock)
10/30/2014 at 15:57 • Filed to: None

But todays kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I mean there's a clear reason why a fair few high end luxury cars are hybrids. To get the tech developed until it can trickle down to cheaper cars. Just like the S class pioneered all kinds of tech, by getting it ready on an expensive car so it can trickle down.

DISCUSSION (27)

mcseanerson > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 16:11

I don't think we need luxury hybrids to advance hybrid tech to regular cars considering it started at the bottom and has worked it's way up. Maybe hybrid sports cars need this but not traditional passenger cars.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > mcseanerson
10/30/2014 at 16:16

The hybrid system is still fairly young in development. Manufacturers can still get huge improvement from the system by absorbing some of the R&D into more expensive cars. In a few years the system on the prius and insight at the moment will start looking fairly crude.

AlmostJalop > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 16:17

Glad I'm not the only one.

Doug usually always writes awesome stuff, but every once and a while I read something that just annoys me.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > AlmostJalop
10/30/2014 at 16:22

Same here. I guess it's just his type of humour.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > AlmostJalop
10/30/2014 at 16:24

Same here. I guess it's just his type of humour.

Yogurt > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 16:27

Hybrids in general are a pretty mature technology but the exec's in charge are the ones that are fairly young in development in realizing what a hybrid system is really capable of.

AlmostJalop > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 16:28

I just thought the whole "someone who can afford a luxury car can afford poor mileage" statement was stupid.

Sure, they can afford it, but in that case they can afford to spend more on a car that gets better mileage, so spending extra on the hybrid shouldn't be a problem for them.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Yogurt
10/30/2014 at 16:29

The systems still have a long way to go. Battery development and maintenance in particular, more advanced energy recovery, use of capacitors and so on. Speaking as an engineer there's still a lot of improvement to be made.

HammerheadFistpunch > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 16:31

Thing is though, he's missing the point entirely. Hybrid drivers get tax credits (In some places), they get HOV lane access (in some state), they get preferred parking, they get congestion charge exemptions....all these things are the things wealthy people want in a car.

To say nothing of the fact that CAFE scores are important because they factor in wheelbase, if a long wheelbase model gets good CAFE mileage, it weighs heavier on the total fleet average than a smaller car. And because you can often do a part of the tests with the engine off in even very mild systems, this means great city scores, which are weighed heavier. It doesn't matter if you sell few of them, it still makes an impact on the fleet average, especially if you are a low volume manufacture (like Jaguar land rover, for example)

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > AlmostJalop
10/30/2014 at 16:39

Also you can save a fortune in tax in certain countries. I only had about 2k to spend on a car and people buying a modest new car might spend 15k. Thats many times more than I spent but theyre still likely to consider mileage as much as me.

deekster_caddy > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 16:40

I thought "luxury" cars were doing it for the performance gains.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > HammerheadFistpunch
10/30/2014 at 16:43

These are all good points. People often dont consider the advantages other than fuel savings.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > deekster_caddy
10/30/2014 at 16:46

The 918 p1 and such do, but cars like the cayenne probably dont.

deekster_caddy > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 16:51

No, I imagine something like the Cayenne could use a little help in the MPG department though. Still, cost vs benefit plays in - cost of hybrid components probably has the least impact on a high end vehicle. Cost vs benefit on a "cheap" car, where people are buying the car that gives the lowest TOC and crap, then it all depends how many miles you drive and what kind of driving you do.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > deekster_caddy
10/30/2014 at 16:59

Yep. Well I never saw the cost being worth it on the Prius for example. They actually get quite poor mileage next to a modern diesel Focus with similar power and cost a lot more. That's less likely to be an issue on a luxury car.

Conan > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 17:45

A lot of this development is influenced by people from countries with ridiculous car taxes (Scandinavian places and so on) who can avoid those taxes with hybrids/electrics.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Conan
10/30/2014 at 17:51

It's like that here in the UK. Tax goes from free for the most efficient cars, to hundreds for more powerful stuff.

Conan > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 17:53

Yeah. If I move to teach in Europe I'm seriously considering going electric. Most of my destinations have ridiculous taxes.

Yogurt > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 18:04

I agree with you somewhat on the batteries. They could be a lot better (gasoline like energy density for one) but the current Li-ion batteries are way better than the NiCd, NiMH and lead-acid that came before them and are applicable for hybrids - decent energy and power density for what they need to do. (and little to no battery memory) Battery longevity is still a concern, but longevity estimation has come a long way in the past few years along with making sure the battery is treated correctly in use to maximize its life.

I'm always waiting to hear about the next battery breakthrough by some guy in his garage, at some university, or from a battery manufacturer, but what we have now for battery tech is still pretty good.

Speaking as an engineer who has practical design and calibration experience with hybrid electric powertrains along with some pretty cool motorsport achievements, they could make a kickass hybrid if they really wanted to. Some people just don't know what they don't know.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Conan
10/30/2014 at 18:15

I drive a small diesel and only pay £30 so you dont need to go full electric to save money.

Conan > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 18:21

Very cool. I'll check that out. I'm looking at teaching in Great Britain to try to get into Denmark more easily or just Denmark directly, so that's good information.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Yogurt
10/30/2014 at 18:54

Pretty cool that you work on hybrid systems. Would you say extra work on calibration and management of the battery/motor makes a big difference. Part of the reason I think hybrids could advance with more R&D is that engine management has done a lot for the efficiency of ICE's so even more advanced programming and data collection could increase the usefulness of hybrids without much actual mechanical change.

Yogurt > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/30/2014 at 21:27

Yes and no.

The motor and battery management/calibration does play a big part in it. If it's not calibrated well, it will not take full advantage of what the system is actually capable of. Just like an ICE, calibration plays a big part on how it performs (and feels) and if a poor job was done, it comes out sucky. But, as any calibrator can attest to, you can only work with the parts you're given. (BTW, if you have questions on why continuously variable cam timing is so kick ass, please let me know)

So the problem I see is most of the hybrids on the market are pretty mild in my eyes when it comes to the ICE/electric motor sizing ratio. A Honda CRZ (which also apparently is supposed to be sporty) is around 8:1. (83kw ICE, 10kw electric) Porsche does a fairly good job with the 918 at around 2:1. (453kw ICE, 208kw electric) I think in a few years it may reach it's final generally accepted ideal value that the market will decide as the automakers are getting more aggressive with this ratio. A Chevy Volt is the other way around at 1:2 (63kw ICE, 120kw electric) but is not setup correctly in my opinion, (parallel is better then series IMO) under powered, and not fun, don't do that.

What I'd like to see is about a 1:1 ratio where you have a 300hp ICE (something turbo and sounds good) and a 300hp electric motor. That way you can do awesome stealth electric burnouts, awesome sounding regular burnouts, or both at the same time. You could also trick your friends. Friend 1: "Dave a has fast electric car" Friend 2: "Dave has a fast gas powered car." Friend 3: "Dave has an insanely fast hybrid car." With a more even power balance between your two torque sources, you can do other interesting things when it comes to how and when the two torques are applied. You can also do more regenerative braking, which helps pretty much everything as you're able to recover more energy that's usually wasted as heat.

Wait a minute... the Tesla P85D is how fast... Ok, lets change that to 400hp & 400hp so someone buys our otherwise slow POS. Having first worked on a hybrid almost 15 yrs. now, I think the next few years will be the most interesting when it comes to hybrids, and even all electrics, and I am excited to see it coming. Very similar to how electronic engine management came about in the '80's and pretty much changed everything in regards to fuel and spark control.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Yogurt
10/31/2014 at 11:58

That makes sense that you can only optimise to a certain extent until you hit the limit of the technology. I just wonder whether there's maybe a little more to squeeze out, but it's not something I have a good understanding of honestly, programming other than basic stuff is pretty beyond me. Would continuously variable cam timing be the pneumatic set up Koenigsegg have been working on, or does it work somewhat similar to a traditional vvt or vtec set up?

I think the problem with upping the ratio is weight at the moment, since you would likely need more batteries to support the motor, or just accept a very small all electric range. As you said the higher potential for energy recovery might help a little though. I love what Mclaren and porsche are doing at the moment though.

I'm definitely interested to see where it goes.

Yogurt > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
10/31/2014 at 16:01

Not quite, what I meant was continuously variable cam timing, in that, is where you can set the cam angle in relation to the crankshaft dynamically to hold a specific desired cam angle. Think of a traditional manually adjustable cam gear (usually bolts and slots of sometype) but setting and changing it is done through the ECU instead of having to turn the engine off and break out some tools. It allows the cam timing to optimized at all engine load points so you get good low end torque, high RPM horsepower and good emissions instead of being stuck at only one position which is a compromise.

This is not like Honda's original VTEC, which was a dual lift pattern cam (on & off, 2 settings) or Nissan's VTC which is where the cam timing can go full advance or full retard, but not hold in between. (again, on & off, 2 settings) I believe the Koenigsegg system might be a camless direct valve actuation system but haven't read up on it.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Yogurt
11/01/2014 at 07:57

Ah okay, never really looked into those sort of systems. All I've really done is studied Hondas VTEC system during my degree. Seems like an interesting system.

I've worked on a VVT system on a renault (a solenoid jammed meaning the car would only run if it was held above 3500rpm) and read up on the koenigsegg system a bit since I find it interesting but I'm obviously by no means an expert.

Yogurt > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
11/02/2014 at 17:27

Here's what can happen when you add VVT to an originally un-VVT engine.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/…