British Oppos- have your say on the TfL ULEZ proposal.

"Vracktal" (Vracktal-) 10/27/2014 at 07:51 • Filed to: None

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More detail: TfL (Transport of London aka the people responsible for the £11.50 daily charge to drive within London) is currently consulting on a proposal that, from 2020, all private vehicles over 13 years old at that time (so anything pre-2007) should be charged £12.50 to drive or ride within central London.

The consultation is open here:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

It's likely that everyone's views will be ignored, but still, I've inputted my views and disagreed with most of them, especially the ones regarding charging motorbikes too.

Also left this in the comments:

A pre 2007 BMW R1200r already puts out only 95.1g/km CO2 and <0.15g/km NOx, putting it on par with vehicles already considered to be 'ultra-low emissions' by TfL.

Why should I pay £12.50 for my daily commute when i'm riding an Ultra-Low emissions vehicle? For this reason, I strongly object to the proposal as currently outlined with respect to motorbikes. Blanket bans applied to all motorcycles are unfair when there are plenty of pre-2007 motorbikes that are cleaner even than modern cars.

Additionally, as motorcyclists spend the least amount of time stationary in London traffic their contribution to net CO2/NOx pollution is further diminished.

It is my belief that motorcycles should be exempt the proposed charges.

-[My name]

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Vracktal 10/27/2014 at 08:05

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They should be heavily encouraging bikes over cars in my opinion. Congestion, pollution will be reduced (unless everyone gets those cheapo 2 stroke scooters that pour blue smoke). Pushing taxis to be under a certain age is important too. The old diesel black cabs are absolutely terrible for air pollution, moreso than most private vehicles.

thebigbossyboss > Vracktal 10/27/2014 at 08:06

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So glad I don't live in the Uk and London especially to be honest. If someone tried that here they'd be run out of town on a rail.

Meanwhile....I need to figure out whom to vote for. It's municipal election day, and I hate all my candidates.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > thebigbossyboss 10/27/2014 at 08:13

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I live in the UK and I hate London. Been there once, didn't like it and haven't been back.

thebigbossyboss > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/27/2014 at 08:14

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I'd like to visit the rest of the UK, but London just seems like a real over priced pain to visit.

Come visit Canada Panda Tamer, if you like "bush" well we have lots and lots and LOTS of that.

bob and john > Vracktal 10/27/2014 at 08:15

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that is moronic at best. they should be pushing bikes small cars. up the tax on the big huge off-roaders or the supercars. you know, the ones that use twice as much space and fuel then anything else?

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > thebigbossyboss 10/27/2014 at 08:20

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I dont understand people who come to the UK to look at London. We have some really excellent touristy places in the country. Our lake district is especially nice in places, I holidayed there this year. London is just a busy place full of rude people with two or three nice sights and nothing much else.

I have family in Canada near Toronto and have been told I can visit whenever. Just can't afford the plane tickets at the moment.

davedave1111 > Vracktal 10/27/2014 at 08:22

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Meh, it doesn't really matter. There are only about three bikes that age left on the road. All bloody stupid while the buses are belching black smoke everywhere, though.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Vracktal 10/27/2014 at 08:29

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Well that sounds... backwards? I'm so glad that I live in a free country.

thebigbossyboss > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/27/2014 at 08:34

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Toronto is like the London of Canada in many ways. It's a nice city but the scenery is boring as all get out.

Vracktal > thebigbossyboss 10/27/2014 at 09:11

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I thought London, Canada was the London of Canada =P

Vracktal > davedave1111 10/27/2014 at 09:12

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My BMW is an '07 and i genuinely love it too much to upgrade, even by 2020. Plus, classic bikes have a huge following in the UK, i'd say this has the potential to affect hundreds of thousands of bikers alone.

thebigbossyboss > Vracktal 10/27/2014 at 09:13

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Uh. Yes. No. Shut up. lol.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > bob and john 10/27/2014 at 09:13

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Anything else... except their own buses and any contractors who'd be exempt either de facto or de jure. Be hesitant to say "should be pushing" or "up the tax on"... at any time - there's no monopoly like a government monopoly. Not only that, but how many supercars and giant offroaders are in London anyway, per capita - so what's their overall contribution? How would you classify things as either without either missing most or sweeping up more innocent vehicles in your wake?

All I'm saying: the implementation isn't the only issue here.

bob and john > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/27/2014 at 09:21

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well, let me put it this way...why should a 320D pay the same tax as an aventador? it shouldnt. (I dont know if it does, bear with me here)

I think the tax should be done on a per-model basis. a 320, lets say, 4$ (u can see my canadianness shine through here). a m3? no great, but still not that bad. 6$ Macca P1? its not actually THAT bad on gas...but its still a supercar. 15$. an aventador? $20. And so on.

London is already the most watched city on earth (or so I heard) how hard would it be to read the plates and send the person a bill like the 407 here in toronto?

as for the bikes: they never stop moving, and are pretty good on gas, and dont take up that much space. Why make something else thats a hassle for them? they already have to deal with stupid drivers not paying attention, might as well give them SOMETHING in return for not using a car in a crowded city.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > bob and john 10/27/2014 at 09:40

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The whole "guiding principle" is wrong. That being, one step at a time, that the more polluting cars *must be* taxed extra to encourage them not to operate *regardless of whether this has any larger point*. The picosecond after you create a schedule of fees, you've created additional layers of bureaucracy to generate that schedule, maintain it, correct it, enforce it, and be subject to corruption and bureaucratic inefficiency at every step. The cost will surely escalate far beyond that of charging a flat rate, and will have the effect of stalling any and all in-person toll collection *unless* collected remotely. Remote collection of any sort enters into serious issues of privacy - though granted London's ship on that has already sailed somewhat. Now, if you think massive expense that will be difficult to recoup without punitive rates is a good idea if only to keep the filthy Aventador driver out of town, good for you - I don't.

Any populist sense that it has also utterly collapses when you reflect that the most-polluting models in terms of real air quality are going to belong to the wealthy... and the retired/semi-retired and poor. By all means, let's charge everybody an extra $.50 in toll just so we can charge Mr. Graham the solicitor an extra $10 on his Lamborghini... and also Mr. MacTavish the butcher, because he likes to drive a used MG that he saved a decade for - not to mention Mr. Shankar's elderly Volvo. If the purpose is to "punish" specific enemies' list polluters through an arbitrary enforcement regime more so than limit traffic overall, then you've already fallen into a pit of activism of the sort that destroys government *in aid of* destroying the common man's ability to rely on the rule of law.

The 320d presumably already has a different level of other taxes applied any time it changes hands, so saying tolls/etc. should be lower than the Lambo is, in short, fallacious.

Let's try this: sliding toll per non-commercial vehicle based on current congestion, motorcycles exempt or lower rate. No Big Brother required.

davedave1111 > Vracktal 10/27/2014 at 10:51

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No way is it hundreds of thousands. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, but not more. Remember, the congestion charge only applies weekdays 6-6, or whatever it is. The number of people commuting on classic bikes must be close to zero.

Vracktal > davedave1111 10/27/2014 at 11:17

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It's not classic bikes though, it's anything over 13 years old by 2020, including my -07 BMW which is in no way a classic yet. For reference, by this time the police could still be using the BMW R1200RT patrol bikes they currently ride then.

And I took the 'potentially hundreds of thousands' figure because that's the number of privately registered motorbikes in London, not including all the couriers, takeaway scooters, blood bikes etc etc. I actually looked a bit further into the data and based on current trends only 1/10 bikers will replace their machine with a new one every year up to 2020, so this will definitely impact a substantial proportion of us by then

davedave1111 > Vracktal 10/27/2014 at 11:47

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A bike over 13 years old is pretty much classic. Vanishingly few bikes make it to that age*. This really won't affect more than a handful of bikes at most.

That, though, is why it's daft. We're talking about a completely negligible amount of emissions.

[* Not all that many cars do, and bikes are much, much more likely than cars to be scrapped or written-off due to lower values. But I can't find any exact figures.]

Vracktal > davedave1111 10/27/2014 at 12:24

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I know this is anecdotal, but on my commute i'd say easily over half the bikes I see are >13 years old (and I do pay attention to this.)

Svend > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/27/2014 at 15:28

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Thanks fella. I'm glad you enjoyed your stay in Cumbria.

When you come up next time visit Buttermere (if you haven't already), it's beautiful area in the west of the Lake District and less touristy.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Svend 10/27/2014 at 17:28

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We ended up staying in the most touristy part since my girlfriend liked the flat we rented for the week in windermere. We didnt visit buttermere actually, will have to whne I go again.

Svend > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/27/2014 at 17:58

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Windermere is a nightmare especially in the summer but it's entertaining to walk round Cock Shott Point or go for a pint at the Cock Inn. Lol.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Svend 10/27/2014 at 18:04

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We made sure to go while the kids were still at school so it was fairly quiet luckily.

I laughed at that because I'm a child.

davedave1111 > Vracktal 10/27/2014 at 18:05

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Funny, from when I was commuting I'd say that there are almost no bikes I saw which were more than two or three years old - I was riding a 7yo bike and it was pretty much the oldest bike on the road apart from a handful.

Do you commute into London? If not, it may be that the smaller-engined bikes/scooters people use for that are much shorter-lived.

This is only a rough check, but there are currently 21k used bikes for sale on Autotrader nationally, and 3200 of them are over ten years old. That's about 15% of used bikes, and it's excluding all the first-owner bikes on the road. Assuming things taper off pretty fast by that point, at least half those 15% are going to be between 10 and 13 years old, too, so it's maybe 7.5% of second-hand bikes at most.

Of those, how many are being used to commute into London?

By the way, which BMW do you have? They all seem to be very nice bikes, so I can see why you'd want to keep one that long. I'm not sure there are many bikers out there capable of going 13 years without writing it off, though, which is why there aren't all that many old bikes out there, I guess :)

Leon711 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/28/2014 at 08:46

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I'd arguably say Brighton is one of the best place to go as visitor from afar. it's as close to Gatwick as London, rich Victorian history, friendly vibe, excellent transport links, cheaper than London.......

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Leon711 10/28/2014 at 08:48

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I duno, if anyone asked me about visiting the UK I'd always encourage them to rent a car and see the countryside. Maybe it's just me though. I like driving the country roads, going hiking, having a pint in a nice country pub. Basically I'm an old man despite being 20. I live in the city so I like to get away from it all when I go on holiday.

Leon711 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/28/2014 at 08:57

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but the buses are brilliant in Brighton they also go out in the sticks, for no additional cost.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Leon711 10/28/2014 at 09:18

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That's fair enough. I have an aversion to buses so they're not something I'd really consider.

Leon711 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/28/2014 at 09:36

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but some of them are hybrids, they are whisper silent most of the time.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Leon711 10/28/2014 at 09:45

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I just don't like being on them is all. Journeys under 5 miles= bicycle, longer journeys= car for me. I know they're necessary for some I just like to avoid them though.

Leon711 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/28/2014 at 09:47

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I live about 7 miles out of Brighton and only occasionally take a bus in if I'm shopping in the city centre. even then I could drive. but parking is expensive.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Leon711 10/28/2014 at 09:49

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I'm lucky here really, 2 miles from the centre so it's only about 5-10 minutes by bike to most things.My car sits for weeks at a time usually, I mostly bought it because I wanted it not because I needed it. Mostly gets used for driving the 40 miles to visit family.

samssun > Vracktal 11/30/2014 at 06:17

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The problem was ever accepting the joke know as carbon "emissions". You gave the same control freaks who ruin everything else they touch another tool to do it, so now you get to argue about an irrelevant g/km measure as they ratchet it down and costs up, and industry wastes billions trying to comply.

Arguing for this one specific case that affects your bike will get you nowhere, because there aren't enough of you, in the same way that you didn't leap into action when others were targeted with diesel taxes, gas guzzler taxes, displacement taxes, etc. They know it which is why they do things piecemeal. The fix is to reject their meddling completely, instead of trying to do damage control.