"crazedclay: SBC murderer" (crazedclay)
10/19/2014 at 10:00 • Filed to: Skyline, Build, Tuning, DIY, How to, Long-read
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"crazedclay: SBC murderer" (crazedclay)
10/19/2014 at 10:00 • Filed to: Skyline, Build, Tuning, DIY, How to, Long-read | 9
| 18 |
A friend recently made contact with me to take a look at an estimate he received from a shop here in Alberta for a build on his R34 GTT and I thought it would be a good long-form way to say hello, post !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . It's a story with some meat, and I'm sure everyone knows someone who got the infamous 20 grand milestone laden build that wasn't much of anything.
At any rate, once the preamble is over you will find my letter to him with an itemized breakdown and general analysis, modified only for in-line photos and the like.
It's long, detailed, but worth the read and found it's home in an astonished but thankful friend.
But yeah.
Nearly 15000 dollars for a bolt-on and tune fest?
Nope Nope Nope Go To Hell Nope.
The key lesson is to scrutinize each line item and think realistically about what it is that you are paying for versus the value outcome, otherwise you'll be out lots of cash for comparatively little good.
If you do that willingly, Is it brand name bragging rights that you willingly pay this much for? With no thought given to what you are actually getting in terms of performance just so you can go play Yakuza Midnight Club circle-jerk?
Puhleaze.
Not you
Don't be that guy.
Find a good builder.
Interrogate the heck out of that builder. Or build it your damn self.
For the uninitiated, an RB engine is a turbocharged inline six engine whose access, forgivingness, and tuneability are all unparalleled, IMO.
It's easy to work on, easy to fix, and stouter than it's nervous nelly RB26 sister. You can do a heck of a lot more for 15k than this tuner seems to be quoting.
His estimate.
Here follows my actual reply
Dear (Friend of Crazedclay)
Ok. I'm going to preface this by saying that I am going to sound like an asshole.
But I promise you with certainty that it is not directed to you. You have sent this to me because you probably want some input that isn't the circle jerk "go-for-it" echo chamber statement you might be seeing from your close circle of car people.
It's your money, of course, but it's a heck of a lot of money!
So let's break it down and think very critically about each line item and what they mean in the scope of things.
In most section you will see inline links to products and services that may alternate from the build, but will serve as a reference if you need to dig deeper on what I am saying or link to a product that would serve well.
My concern is that you are spending 15000 dollars for a bolt on build with tune that doesn't even touch your internals or oil/coolant subsystems.
For perspective thats my entire student loan for not much joy.
And think very closely about how slow they would actually have to work to soak up that much labour versus what needs doing.
I should be asking for a consultants fee.
So here goes:
Parts:
Greddy intake manifold and used Q45 Throttle Body: 1583.66
Frankly I feel that a generic forward facing intake manifold will provide no meaningful losses and do so at an extremely reduced rate. On the other hand the extremely overpriced brand name components will certainly bring no meaningful gains in this case/line item. Even a proper bench port will not come close to closing this price gap.
It's extremely likely that the internal geometry of the generic unit is not at all dissimilar to the highly overpriced Greddy piece. Further, it's a lump of goddamn metal with no moving parts. So is the Greddy.
And then we add a 200 dollar used throttle body that would, on a good day, fetch 30 bucks at a wrecker.
For a 1204 dollar savings, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .
Spearco Front Mount Intercooler and aluminum piping/couplers for fab work: 1566.02
The same might be said relative to the Spearco FMIC. Get one made or research and buy a good generic. There won't be an appreciable difference with the proper product. What you will want are good sturdy well welded end tanks and proper surface area. If you recall a certain generic front mount and the difference it did to a certain old Shelby, you'll understand just why I think paying nearly a thousand dollars for two tanks and some fins seems excessive.
There are !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! pushing 30lbs through the CX stuff no problem. Depending on how much boost you intend to run, it may be preferable to go to a larger unit and diameter of pipes to prevent boost stacking or heat soak. But I don't forsee that being a problem.
To the piping, I did some raw stock searching and found that in order to spend 500 dollars on raw material, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Go measure 40 feet. So the question begs, why does your bill state 500 dollars for aluminum pipe? This figure does not include the cost of fabrication, don't forget.
For a total savings of 1215.02 !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . AND! That will even include the piping you will need to get it set up properly.
The bottom line is that I do not EVER trust someone who says "X product will handle X horsepower" where X is static. It's bullshit. A static piece of metal that isn't directly involved with the reciprocal generation and conversion of heat energy into locomotion or the transfer of that power to the ground will technically handle as much horsepower as you can possible muster even if it's a million and one.
In this case, the intercooler is meant to handle boost and flow, the real question is if it will stack/pressure drop across the membrane area between the end-tanks enough to hinder performance. The engine will make the horsepower, the drivetrain will deliver it.
DOC race top exhaust manifold: 1681.43
Why is your swaybar green, sir?
The website says the pipe it's made of is rated for 1300 horsepower. That's nice, given it's job is to conduct exhaust gasses and not produce horsepower.
Here, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , is a very comparable piece with less welds to break, a slightly modified wastegate location, and a lack of Irish drift champion street cred.
ooooh.
Borgwarner S300SX 8875 Turbo S362: 899.54
Quite frankly, I think this component should cost as much as it needs to. There is a certain degree of precision that Honeywell-Garret and BW have in their fabrication operations. BUT, there are considerations that should come into play that I see missed.
Your tuner needs to tell you WHY this turbo is the one to choose.
He needs to show you and help you understand what the compressor map looks like and tell you what it means in your application.
Is it going to spool when you are at four and a half grand thus giving you a pretty shitty 2-2.5k rpm in-boost power band? Is that streetable in your application? I don't know.
Your tuner should though.
Also, just oil cooled? Stone age, baby.
It would be better for the longevity of the turbo to have a dual cooled (Oil AND Coolant) center cartridge if you can get one. There is a reason the old Garrets in our old dodge turbo k's lived to see 300000 kmiles without coking up or tossing center cartridges.
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Size isn't everything.
TIAL MVR 44MM Wastegate: 444.26
A wastegate is a fairly simple device. It operates on the basis of bypassing. Given the rest of the build, the diameter here will be the correct one, but you may be able to get a much better deal than that price by !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . This one will save you about 345 dollars. I don't suggest maximum cheaping out, but you should be on the lookout for the savings that can be had. Or at least a middle of the road product.
Mild steel fabrication components, for downpipe: 350 (Estimate)
A pipe.
Some flange material.
No. This is not 350 dollars worth of material. Not ever. Not even adjusted for ego inflation.
Engine management and electronics
Innovate MTX-L Wideband gauge kit: 250.00
It's good. It's a fairly standardized piece at a decent rate.
That said-
Ugh, mileage based recalibrations.
Why not a calibration free unit !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ?
Or!
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and use two analog inputs on your plug and play Haltech ECU, mapping the dual widebands to their functions within it? It will cost you about 250 dollars more and you will get massively more useful information that will assist with tuning.
Or just buy the single channel version for 50 dollars more than you'll spend on the Innovate and wire it the same. I'm guessing you can slave an output to any fast acting gauge you want and won't be stuck with the blinding Innovate circus wheel gauge that we just all know and love from night drives.
Ideally I would like to see six channels of wideband (three Haltech Duals or a couple UEGO quads), one for each cylinder, but that's just my preference. That would be worth the money though. Individual cylinder tuning makes me wet.
Fap Fap Fap Fap Fap Fap
Haltech Pro-Plugin for R34 GTT: 2019.96
I don't know a ton about it, but having done some reading on it I will say that it would be my preferred choice versus something that is getting longer in the tooth like a PowerFC or similar.
The inputs and outputs seem alright, and it is quite programmable.
And it's more plug and play/less messy than a standalone, which is something I will cover later on.
Re: the cost? !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .
3 bar Map: 135.00
It's a MAP that will read up to 30lbs of boost. Not much to say here. If this is a reliable piece then it will be worth the cost.
That said, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! will run you about 40 dollars. So that's a fair bit of markup.
The Plug and play Haltech sports a 1.5 bar/21psi internal MAP sensor at no cost, but I'm guessing you'll be up into the mid-late 20's for your daily driving needs.
See: Nipple
Boost control Solenoid: 155.00
Generally speaking, the device itself is simple and robust enough that a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .
For 155 bucks it would likely need to be gold plated, quite honestly.
Deatsch Werks 1000CC injector set: 786.17
So be it. Deatsch seems to be one of the few purveyors generally trusted.
That said, how come your tuner didn't spec a proper fuel pump to feed them in his estimate? Did he even spec a new fuel filter?
Labour:
Remove intake and exhaust manifolds: 5 hours@120/hr=600 dollars
I can't remember the last time it took five hours to remove the manifolds from an RB25. Do you?
Might take an hour on an engine stand, two tops in-bay.
Install Greddy intake manifold, Injectors, and q45 throttle body: 3.5 hours@120/hr=420 dollars
I would certainly see this as valid if it included removal of the old manifold thereby negating the first five hours for that. It does not. Therefore I question it.
Install and brace turbo manifold w/ turbo: 5 hours@120/hr=600 dollars
No. Again. No. How!?
If this engine will be on a stand, an hour, maybe. In bay, two tops.
It's a top mount, which means that turbo is quite a lot easier to access and mount.
Presuming that bracing will be a simple affair either way.
Surely not five hours of labour.
Fabricate vband exhaust downpipe: 4 hours@120/hr=480 dollars
Questionable.
Bend pipe. Weld flanges on pipe.
Test fit.
If your skyline were a one-off Pagani I could see the cost being up there, but as it is, your skyline is not a snowflake. They made a bunch of em and this is not the first RB R34 to walk in their door so the dimensions should be well established.
Mount intercooler and fabricate intake/intercooler piping: 8 hours@120/hr= 960 dollars
The removal of your R34's front bumper will take approximately 45 minutes to an hour. Installation the reverse. Installation of tubing/IC will take approximately two hours. So we are at four hours max. Where is the rest of the time going? Not towards fab because as in the parts above, there are options that are prefabricated at a greatly reduced cost overall.
Wire and Install Wideband gauge: 3.5 hours@120/hr=420 dollars
With your new exhaust manifold in place (with wideband sensor of course conveniently installed on the bench to save you labour) all that needs to be done is routing of cabling to it's pigtail from the cab, some simple ACCY splices, and routing across the underdash to the ECU pigtail for analog input.
Not 3.5 hours of labour, even when done as clean as could be.
By the way, If they think screwing the wideband to the steering column with a squishy hoop mount is ok, they should re-evaluate the value of their services.
Install Haltech ECU and wire Sensors/Boost Solenoid: 6 hours@120=720 dollars
The installation of the ECU and accessory/sensor splices should not take six hours. It is plug and play.
The ecu is not on mount doom. It's in your passenger kick panel (Literally one plastic nut away.
So unless hobbits come in the glove box (Located above passenger kick panel) you should seriously question how this will take six hours to complete the journey to your ECU and back.
It will take about ten minutes. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
Initial calibration of ECU, Base tune of engine: 4 hours@120=480 dollars
Pardon?
What?
They are then going to charge you an !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! to your ECU before any real tuning takes place .
THAT IS TO SAY:
Before charging you more undisclosed money to roll it onto a dyno to perfect the tune.
The bottom line:
I can't change the labour, but let's look at parts.
Your tuner has listed a total invoice of 9871 for parts. Your tuner hasn't talked about exhaust or supporting modifications or tires, clutch, brakes or any of the many other things you'll need to make it right.
I dare say you could do the same build in your garage (Remember, all bolt ons!) for 4628 with labour). Once it's all done you can get some support mods in it for another grand, and then get it dyno tuned by a real shop like AutoDream or perhaps send it out to one of the west coast shops.
Spend the rest on a nice wedding. Your tuner is a joke for providing this estimate.
Sincerely,
Clay, Earl of Crazed and heir to the throne of Batshit, Esq.
OH YEAH.
BY THE WAY.
Did I miss anything
Nice to be back. More on that sooner or later. Many people wrote me lots of very cool things that I can't quite address in a blanket sort of way, so the best thing to say is that I appreciated all the kind words, intentions, ideas, and thoughts.
I haven't forgotten who was friendly and stood by me during my brief exile. It should also be noted that I have not forgotten who did not.
norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 10:20 |
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Welcome back!
ly2v8-Brian
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 10:26 |
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HOLY SHIT YOU'RE BACK!
Also entertaining read throughout good work sir.
signintoburnerlol
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 10:26 |
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Parts for the Skyline have gotten nuts. Did you see the Nismo R34 build that they released recently? That car with all those parts would most likely cost as much as an RS5 Nismo, perhaps more.
Having a higher end sports car or a car with sporty intention gets a bit stupid with aftermarket.
An exhaust for our RS7 is an easy $3K plus, with no fancy metals or mufflers, etc etc. While for the FRS, we could get a true quality exhaust for around $1K. There's maybe a few more inches of pipes, but of course that equates to $2K more because of $100K car.
Sn210
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 10:33 |
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is a GTT even worth $15k stock?
Also, welcome back!
Zipppy, Mazdurp builder, Probeski owner and former ricerboy
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 10:45 |
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Good to see you back!
also, mighty car mods' gramps is a good example of what to do. They said all the custom work only needed a welder. As long as welding is an asset of yours, you're golden.
shop-teacher
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 10:45 |
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Good to see you back. I hope your friend ran fast and far from that "tuner".
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norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 10:56 |
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Also as far as I know you didn't miss anything too important. Nothing big just back to normal old Oppo. Been too busy with school to really know.
mcseanerson
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 11:00 |
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Welcome Back! I am terrible at long form articles so I can't guarantee I'll ever read this whole thing but I will make an attempt.
Leadbull
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 11:24 |
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AMGtech - now with more recalls!
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 12:14 |
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I apparently missed the whole exile shit storm. Noticed you weren't around but had no idea why. Glad you're back, Oppo wasn't the same without you.
Good job tearing apart that estimate. I don't know anything about skylines but I'm pretty sure I could do that whole "build" in a day. Then I was thinking "those parts prices aren't so bad, wait a second.... These aren't Mercedes parts! These are generic Nissan parts!" Ricockulous. And the lack of supporting mods is appalling.
desertdog5051
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 12:14 |
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Well done. I do not suffer from short-attention-span so I read it in its entirety. The article was informative and gave good reasoning for any differences. Even if your friend cannot perform the installs, he is going to be smarter about what it takes to do it and will be better able to shop around for comparisons.
bhardoin
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 12:53 |
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God damn. What a ripoff quote.
thebigbossyboss
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 13:17 |
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Welcome back.
Very glad to have you.
I saw your recommendation on my post earlier, but kept that secret so as to not spoil the surprise.
We missed you that's for sure.
I'll take 911 RS for $5000
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 13:51 |
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Clay, good to see you back! I saw the CigarLounge post on my phone (so I didn't comment) but I've enjoyed many of your posts, this one especially.
1337HPMustang
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 14:52 |
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oooohhhohoo so clean. I want touchings of it.
Good job advising you friend, definitely intercooler, manifold, injectors wastegate etc should be installed by him. Unless his time for a weekend is worth 15000, I don't see why he wouldn't do it or at least enlist a buddy with a large case of beer.
Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/19/2014 at 18:52 |
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You're back! Its like Oppo's missing limb was just re-attached! We all missed you dearly
fhrblig
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/21/2014 at 00:49 |
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Glad to see you're back!
Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
> crazedclay: SBC murderer
10/24/2014 at 10:55 |
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That was glorious. Not sure how I ended up at this article, but I'm glad I did.
Also, you're back? What made you leave us? D: (I'm guessing drama)