70,000 Pilots and 50 Years - The T-38 Talon

"f86sabre" (f86sabre) 01/18/2014 at 10:17 • Filed to: Planelopnik, T-38

27

73

70,000 pilots and over 50 years of service have to tell you something. The slide rule packing engineers from Northrop did something right in 1959. After the initial deployment of supersonic aircraft to the front lines of the USAF it became evident that a trainer was needed to develop pilot skills at high speeds. Northrop answered the call with the T-38 Talon, sister to the F-5 Tiger II fighter. While the aircraft was developed without a firm contract it was quickly snapped up by the USAF which ended up operating over 1100 of the sleek jets.

Compared to its contemporaries the T-38 is an elegant, slim design. It's razor sharp wings are only 25 ft from tip to tip. That is 13 ft narrower than the F-4. It was also weighed 23,000 lbs less at 7,200 lbs.

Powered by two 2000 lb thrust GE J85-5A after burning engines, the light weight trainer could reach Mach 1.3. Its speed and maneuverability allows beginning fighter jocks to get a taste of what flying the big jets is like.

The T-38 was quick enough and maneuverable enough that the Thunderbirds picked up the jet in the '70s during the fuel crunch. Really, while the trainer was a bit of a step down from the fire breathing, and smoking, F-4, it was more than a match in the tight turning category. The Talon also looked fairly snazzy in the T-Birds paint.

One of the notable, and public, uses of the T-38 has been as a trainer and transport for NASA astronauts. The plane is used to to keep the astronaut pilot's skills up, allows them to quickly travel around the country and, frankly, to look like astronauts.

Northrop had some very lofty dreams for the T-38. During the early 1960s it was pitched as an "aerospace" trainer for space plane pilots. They had big dreams in the '60s. This version of the T-38 would have had three rocket engines instead of jets and would have been able to reach an altitude of 280,000 ft and a speed of Mach 3.3. That is a heck of a jump from basic trainer. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Northrop also looked into making a vertical takeoff version of the aircraft.

The T-38 is still in service. The Air Force is very interested in keeping it in service for some time to come. It has been updated a number of times, has a rigorous structural program and is probably out flying right now training a new pilot.

Photo credits:

NASA.gov, Fly-fighter-jet.com, Myhobbielinks.com, Warbirdalley.com, Lloyder.com, Wikipedia.org

95HondaV6 > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 10:30

15

I enjoyed this article. Thank You very much! And this line: "...allows them to quickly travel around the country and, frankly, to look like astronauts." is the best reason ever .

Great Plane! Great Story! Thanks again!
(Perchance a similar piece on the A10?)

f86sabre > 95HondaV6 01/18/2014 at 10:39

20

I could do something on the A-10. It's a long weekend, so we'll see. Thanks for the kind words.

reallyoldguy > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 11:28

0

Please do, the Warthog is a fantastic aircraft and in in it's own buttkicking way a great looking plane.

brian_nec > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 11:28

1

Hadfield is the manliest man that ever manned.

JR1 > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 11:36

3

I love to learn something new especially when it's from the 1960s aerospace. I certainly wish I would of had the "right stuff" to fly a T-38. Alas I was born four decades to late!

Lotusexcelle > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 11:41

10

Very enjoyable read. The T-38 reminds me of the B-52 in lot of ways. It fits its niche so well that there isn't a reason to design a replacement. I get a kick out of old designs that are still in service and still do their jobs well.

justinw2116 > JR1 01/18/2014 at 11:47

0

How could you have been born four decades too late? These have been flying for 50 years and are still flying daily at Beale AFB and Langley AFB just to name a couple places.

Nathan > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 11:48

1

Love the A-10. Seriously underrated and under appreciated aircraft.

f86sabre > brian_nec 01/18/2014 at 11:49

0

Dudeliest dude as well. If you have time this is a good listen...

http://www.nerdist.com/2013/11/nerdis…

Diesel > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 11:57

5

I work at Johnson Space Center and spend a fair amount of time at Ellington Field, where most of these T-38s are based. Every year, we do a missing man formation flight over the center on the eve of the Challenger Disaster. Seeing these planes fly around all the time makes me wish I had become a pilot instead.

PillowSmeller > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 12:01

0

[redacted]

f86sabre > Diesel 01/18/2014 at 12:01

2

Do they do the same for Columbia? It is a nice thought that the astronauts honor their own.

I tried to become a military pilot. While my ASVAB scores were fine, and I had a college degree, I was near sighted and had bad knees. No go for me. Ended up as an aerospace engineer instead.

M54B30 > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 12:10

3

I have a few buddies from ROTC in flight training flying these right now. We were doing something right back then - the T-38, B-52, C-130, and C-5 (among others I'm sure) are still great performing aircraft 30-50+ years after they were designed.

brian_nec > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 12:10

1

seems like a genuine cool guy you could hangout with....who happens to be an astronaut.

yellowdatsun > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 12:22

3

One of the best looking planes ever made. Just something about the overhead or bottom view, with the tight waist, perfect dimensions. The old adage, "if it looks right, it flies right", certainly applies here. If I could ever afford to buy a jet for personal use, this would be it.

Davos Swinney > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 12:26

0

Yes, this was an awesome write-up. Something about the A-10 would be glorious!

mshefler > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 12:45

0

Funny, I'm at IFS right now and we were just talking about this plane yesterday. Talk about a timely article.

Blze001 > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 13:03

9

They play the "bad guys" for the F22 students at my base... look pretty snazzy in all black.

TINS > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 13:06

2

I remember seeing the Thunderbirds perform in these when I was a kid at McGuire air force base. Beautiful plane.

alpineflier > Blze001 01/18/2014 at 13:14

2

...and serve as companion trainers for U-2 and B-2 pilots. I'm particularly fond of the Beale jets.

Diesel > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 13:23

0

I may have the wrong disaster. I know they only do the missing man for one of the two disasters. The other has a yearly ceremony at our trees for the fallen. It's the last stop if you take the JSC tour.

2whlsrfun > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 13:24

15

This engine is quite impressive by itself. Originally designed as a "throw-away" of sorts for the ADM-20 Quail drone, it was not flying a human around so it was made to just work. A little, 12 foot x 3 foot x 5 foot wing drone, all 1200 lbs of it

It is surprising how much of the engine is made of sheet metal. The first version, designed for the ADM-20 was made to be cheap, have good power to keep this drone flying with the big boys (B-52s), but sip fuel (you know, 1960's speaking) so that the B-52's did not have to fly themselves, their fuel, the drone, plus lots of drone fuel, out to their mission.

Well the '70's rolled around, radar was better, the ADM-20 was not fooling anyone at this point, so it was slowly decommissioned.

The engine in the T-38's is a good bit different, especially after decades of improvements at this point. It still is impressive seeing some of the innards and how simple most of the bits and pieces are.

Random fun fact? Star Trek Voyager's kitchen uses two afterburner liners in the kitchen. See the cylindrical sheet metal with holes around the pots? Yep!

F1guy hates duck billed F1 cars > M54B30 01/18/2014 at 13:25

6

As we've discovered with the M2 Browning, M1911, and the Russians with the 7.62x54R, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

BigGatorChris > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 13:34

0

From the good old days, when the USAF wasn't totally averse to anything remotely close to cheap.

BigGatorChris > Blze001 01/18/2014 at 13:35

0

Christ, now I'll have "Dangerzone" in my head the rest of the day.

d3v > Blze001 01/18/2014 at 13:44

0

It's tradition, their F-5 brethren were often called upon to play bad guy "MiGs" in movies back in the 80's and 90's (Top Gun, Hot Shots, etc.).

I-can-count-past-two > 2whlsrfun 01/18/2014 at 13:45

0

This is pretty shaweet! There are so many easter eggs out there in shows, you'd just never know it.

That drone also looks the Delta Car. Interesting.

McMike > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 14:15

4

Let's not forget the marketed and never sold F-20 Tigershark.

Chuck couldn't even sell'em.

SamTheGeek > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 14:22

2

Gotta love that super-area-ruled fuselage. It's got more of a coke bottle than the contemporary 'Vette.

FelixScout > 2whlsrfun 01/18/2014 at 14:24

1

Very cool. Thanks for the additional information!

FelixScout > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 14:27

0

Very cool write-up and thank you for that. Any thought to doing a write-up on its sibling the F-5?

FireAway3 > yellowdatsun 01/18/2014 at 14:33

0

That's what I always say. If I had to have a second plane for personal use (after a Gulfstream V) It would be a T-38. Flying around astronaut style at mach 1.3 to places would save a lot of time, its a trainer with two seats so I could bring one other person, and it can land on fairly short private runways. I wonder what an aircraft made with current technologies but created with the same original requirements would be like.

Seraph99 > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 14:44

2

After I left basic training (USAF)and got to tech school, we used these to train on aircraft hydraulics. Thanks for the article, brings back some fond memories. Maybe an article on the old KC-135 Stratotanker. Miss working on those old jets...

Union of Smog Techs of CA > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 14:44

1

Needs an LS1

Shiftright > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 14:49

3

Always one of my favorites for its sleek, lithe proportions and dimensions. Like a Miata for the sky.

f86sabre > Shiftright 01/18/2014 at 14:57

0

I toyed with a title of "Miata for the Skies", but backed away from it.

f86sabre > FelixScout 01/18/2014 at 15:03

0

I could. It lead an interesting life. I ended up doing this after finding the lead pic. It just kind of grew and grew.

svensball > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 15:04

0

Please write up something about the A10, I love that plane. What else has a titanium bathtub? Nothing.

f86sabre > 2whlsrfun 01/18/2014 at 15:06

1

Wow, cool info. I love the voyager pic. Great idea.

HowardRoark > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 15:36

1

I've always thought with the coke bottle fuselage resulting from area rule that the T-38/F-5/F-20 are simply the most beautiful jet aircraft to have ever flown!

Blown2K2S2K > 2whlsrfun 01/18/2014 at 15:54

3

Another interesting tidbit on the J85 is that it was used in the production of some Me-262 replicas, the "c" models made in the early 2000's, picking up the serial number right where they left off. It used the J85 as it was similar in size to the Jumo 004...which is not even close to being reliable enough to fly in the US:)

2whlsrfun > Blown2K2S2K 01/18/2014 at 16:27

1

Did not know that - nice factoid!
Here is another for you: White Knight One (Scaled Composites) used two J85's!

Lots of these engines are used in other projects, jet dragsters being a popular one.

Michael Zaite > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 16:44

3

I had no Idea the T-38 was so light. I think I've driven cars that weigh more than 7000 pounds.

Now I want one.

Remarkably-Average-Avalon > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 17:25

1

The Air Force is very interested in keeping it in service for some time to come. It has been updated a number of times, has a rigorous structural program and is probably out flying right now training a new pilot.

The T-X program is scheduled to field a replacement in the early to mid 2020s, but it has already been pushed back to that timeframe and the, relative, low priority to the USAF might push it back further depending on budgets.

Also, Boeing owns two T-38s that they use as a chase plane on high speed test flights, and there are several others in private hands as well.

Zsa Zsa Gaborg > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 18:17

0

What a sharp-looking plane! It seems like trainers and scouts always have better looks than their armed counterparts (see CF-100 Canuck).

f86sabre > Remarkably-Average-Avalon 01/18/2014 at 18:23

0

I saw one of the private ones at Paul Allen's museum at at Paine Field. That would be a rough ride to have in the hangar.

JR1 > justinw2116 01/18/2014 at 19:00

1

I would have liked to have flown them in the 60s during the space race

Plasmazzr600 > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 19:51

0

Warthogs is where it's at! Low and slow that's how they roll! I've seen these trainer planes here but it was the NASA version.

4thwall > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 19:55

0

Excellent write up!
Thanks for bringing back some awesome memories of seeing T-38s for the first time dressed up as MIGs in TopGun.

wagnerrp > McMike 01/18/2014 at 19:59

0

Blame the USAF for that one. The F-20 was "too good". The USAF saw it as legitimate competition for F-16. Any prospective buyer nations were leaned heavily upon to buy F-16s so the USAF could get better bulk discounts.

Huraghan > McMike 01/18/2014 at 20:12

0

Poor darn thing was past its time, just couldn't compete with the F-16. No room for growth.

jphive > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 20:28

0

...Really...Not one mention of its awesome staring role at the fictional MIG 31 in Top Gun...."Negative Ghostrider, you are not cleared for a flyby. The pattern is full."

Erica Jane > FelixScout 01/18/2014 at 21:02

1

Not to mention the sad story of the F-20.

Jason Bailey > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 21:20

0

I was in the AF for 6 years, got out went to a training base in Mississippi where I gassed up these jets. They are awesome watching them take off!

porkrind > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 21:23

0

Paul's is actually an F5. Often parked right next to his MiG-29!

porkrind > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 21:23

0

Paul's is actually an F5. Often parked right next to his MiG-29!

porkrind > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 21:23

1

Paul's is actually an F5. Often parked right next to his MiG-29!

Sunray09 > f86sabre 01/18/2014 at 21:28

0

Such a great looking aircraft.

FelixScout > Erica Jane 01/18/2014 at 23:47

0

That is really tragic and highlights so many things of concern in US military purchases.

SweetZombieJesus > f86sabre 01/19/2014 at 07:00

0

Pretty sure those are MiGs, dude

Viper_Bravo > 2whlsrfun 01/19/2014 at 07:03

0

No wonder Nelix's food always tasted off, just a hint of jet fuel!

montego > f86sabre 01/19/2014 at 07:57

1

That title goes to the R22.

porkrind > porkrind 01/19/2014 at 11:41

0

porkrind > porkrind 01/19/2014 at 11:42

0

Here it is...

ZeedGTI > f86sabre 01/19/2014 at 12:07

1

I posted about one of the best T-38 fly overs a few weeks ago. take a look!

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/football-fly-o…

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Dadu > McMike 01/19/2014 at 16:02

0

The reason we couldn't sell them? Call Fort Worth....Northrup Didn't cry too much over it...they had stuff in the "Black" at the time....

Mr Joshua > f86sabre 01/19/2014 at 19:09

0

I would have become an astronaut if I'd known as a kid that this was the standard issue company car. Do these things have keys ?

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > f86sabre 01/19/2014 at 21:42

0

Only now is the USAF seriously thinking about its replacement with the T-X program.

Brian, The Life of > f86sabre 01/20/2014 at 16:06

3

Fantastic read, F86!

As it happens, the only military jet I've ever flown in was a T-38 that was assigned to Fitz Fulton, my one-time father-in-law (my sister's 1st husband's dad) and longtime friend of my parents. Gen Fulton (USAF-Ret) was one of the test pilots during Dryden Flight Test Center's golden years and was the lead test pilot on my all-time favorite aircraft, the XB-70.

Fitz invited me up one day when I was a teen. We spent about 45 minutes total in the air and it was one of the top ten coolest, most memorable experiences of my life. The best way to describe it is like riding the BEST roller coaster ever created and not being able to see the tracks to know which way you're going next.

Just epic :)

f86sabre > Brian, The Life of 01/20/2014 at 16:37

0

I'd star this twice if Kinja would let me.

Brian, The Life of > f86sabre 01/20/2014 at 16:55

1

Here he is in the cockpit of a B-58 Hustler :)

One of the nicest, most unassuming guys you could ever meet. He had all the justification to have the world's biggest ego but was always very humble and cool as a cucumber. Fitz is a big reason test pilots were my childhood heros.

Grizwold > f86sabre 01/21/2014 at 11:01

1

Many thousands of these shots, like my pop graduating pilot training in the 70s.

ieatbabies0083 > f86sabre 03/04/2014 at 22:22

0

That was the golden age of jet fighters. Considering the level of technology during that era, these jet fighters are quite the marvels.