Dear Oppo: You don't know what Driving Is

"GhostZ" (GhostZ)
09/05/2013 at 00:22 • Filed to: Oppo, rant, driving, street racing, GhostZ

I know I'm not like "most" Oppo-ites. I don't enjoy cars because they're cool, expensive, fun, or a good hobby. I'm the type of person who gets squirrely and irritable if I haven't been in a car for a week. If I don't go over 100mph once every few months, I get depressed. But I do share one thing: I love all cars.

The following explanation is not directed at burners or anonymous commentors. It is directed at the entire frequent commentariat of Jalopnik, m any of which are on Oppo. Even if you don't feel it's pertinent to you, I bet you'll still enjoy reading it. This is a greater problem, not just with Jalopnik, and I want to express my thoughts on a very hot subject in automotive culture. So let me use a recent article to explain, what I think, has become the death of driving in today's culture.

I judge how a car is used based on success of its owner at achieving their goals not on my pre-conceived notions of correctness . Because that's what a machine is, isn't it? A device we use to accomplish a task? It doesn't matter if it is a car or a space shuttle. There is a vision, a goal, of what is possible, and then there are ways to achieve it.

Before we hash out why I act this way, let's get down to the real reason this post exists. At the end of August, Jalopnik posted !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! It's been a week, but my attention was drawn back to it with the not-quite-unexpected followup !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , where the NYPD responded, as they are paid to do. It's their job, and I wish them success in that too. In the 'offending' video, you see a guy safely, and successfully, achieving a set goal using his automobile in a way that requires more planning, skill, and intelligence than a vast majority of the drivers in the world.

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Why Afroduck does not deserve the horrible fates he is being threatened with.

I don't mean to say that people should die . I mean say that if you're going to have a vitriolic reaction , let's optimize what you should point your rage toward. This is, essentially, a study of how to save lives, and why hating street racing is an inefficient way to go about it. You guys seriously disappointed me with your comments. They were ignorant, fear-mongering, and mudslinging attention-grabbing comments that are both ill-informed and offensive.

I want to emphasize those adjectives, because they aren't chosen at random.

Ignorant . Lacking knowledge in general. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . This number has been going down, primarily due to increased vehicle safety, since 2005. A majority of these deaths happened during 55mph or 45mph highways, not in town on the street. This is 1/3rd of all traffic fatalities. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

Highway safety is past the marginal point of gain. We have passed the point where it is cost-effective to reduce road deaths. Why? Because motor vehicle accidents are 1/10th the size of any of the top 10 preventable deaths per year. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

However, deaths among children worldwide are !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! worldwide, and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Except that these "street racers" are not driving with kids in the car . That's right. More damage is coming from distracted drivers with children in the vehicle. Distracted drivers. So the argument "street racers rob children of their future" doesn't hold water either.

In all of my research over the years, I have never encountered a statistical scenario where automobile deaths due to speed were a huge pressing matter that needed addressing. Drunk driving? Absolutely. Distracted driving? Sure. Speed? No. The number of deaths due to excessive speed (NOT street racing) is too small.

So what would you say, if it's not worth slowing people down, if I told you that deaths due to "street racing" !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Does it still seem like street racing is the demonic child-killing sport that the media (not Jalopnik, who I commend for keeping a cool head over this) and the commenters present it as?

The law does not exist to prevent people from committing crimes. In fact, crime doesn't exist without the law. All the law does is make certain goals, certain visions, very hard to achieve, for the overall support of the public's happiness. It doesn't go for absolute protection this because making such illegal activities, would be more difficult to stop than the benefit from stopping them. Traffic laws are no different. So even if you are indifferent on an emotional level, asking police and enforcement to "step up" and stop actions such as his (which caused no damage) would be worse for society as a whole.

Fear-mongering . This is getting support and a reaction from cheap uses of fear to draw attention to oneself. This made me angry as both a Driver and a Writer . Jalopnik presented facts, and an interview, and didn't paint it one way or another. Even in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! they could have strung him up and gotten a lot more views and support. They didn't because there is something to be said for journalistic integrity . So it's up to the commenters to provide their opinion. This is perfectly valid, and I would not delete any of the comments. But I will say, here and now, that their comments are wrong and disappointing compared to the capabilities of the readership here.

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Mudslinging . This is using insults to damage an opponent. At first you may find me guilty of this, but there is a difference between an insult and a point of contention . I do not mean to offend anyone by using the word "ignorant". I am using it because by definition, that is what is what I am describing . Claiming that a person should be killed, jailed, or harmed in ways normally not socially acceptable, and then giving them an insult to the purpose of insulting them results in a failure to express your thoughts properly. If calling someone "reckless" was your justification for suggesting they are beat to a pulp (or jailed, murdered, or any form of severe punishment) then in order for your argument to hold, "recklessness" must be the crime. Otherwise, you're using the phrase as a way to block reason, logic, or knowledge, and convey your own opinion. Worse yet, in the case of this article, the emotion behind these comments was wrong .

Why Afroduck is smart, safe, and better than you at life.

Afroduck was successful. That's the thing. If he lapped Manhattan in 45 minutes and caused 3 wrecks along the way, I'd condemn the guy. But he lapped Manhattan in 24 minutes and caused no wrecks . No harm done. He passed through, quickly, transparent, and succeeded at something that no one else could.

"People pay a million dollars to be recognized, but nobody cares about them. They cared about me because I did things other men were afraid to do. That's why my fans identified with me."

This quote comes from someone else who knows how to achieve a goal they set: Evel Knievel. The 'bullshit' response to that is "Evel did his stunts away from people and safely! He was only hurting himself!" And you're completely right. That's because his stunts, if done in public places, would have killed himself and others, and would have served his goals (excitement, thrill, challenge) worse. But can you say that about our mysterious driver in Manhattan? I watched the video. I didn't see anyone die, or get into a wreck. It would have been impossible for him to achieve that vision any other way. It doesn't matter if you do something in public, or out of public, it's all about setting your constraints and your goal, and then achieving it.

Part of his goal was getting through safely and without causing harm . It was one of many goals, but you can't deny, Afroduck set out to complete his run, making sure he wouldn't kill John and Jane and little Bobby, or tear down their suburban picket-fence life. He left them untouched. He planned, built his skills, and like any good driver, took a well-informed risk in hopes of becoming famous. This is very far from the malicious intent (or indifference) that is expressed by the responses to his actions. It's a case of commenters acting without reason.

Why do we give Race Car drivers a pass if they crash? Why is it better to fail on a track than to succeed on the street?

Why do we have competition in life? Why do we seek danger? Why do we have dreams? Why do we drive toward a dream?

Maybe I don't know the answer to those questions, but I do know that the answer is certainly not "because its safe."

Afroduck is not the problem. You are the problem.

So now I can explain the title. You don't know what driving is. You're a plane enthusiast who hates the SR-71 Blackbird because it was too dangerous. You're a scientist who refuses to support space travel because astronauts could die.

There is a difference between Driving , and pushing pedals . Go to a driver's Ed course, and you'll find out quickly that they do not teach students how to drive . They teach them traffic laws. Knowing the rules of the road is not the same as learning how to operate a machine. The driving knowledge is limited to what each pedal does (and in a general, not exact, way). You, you criticizers who are appalled to see so many laws broken, you are the students. You don't drive , you push pedals when someone else, thousands of miles away, says its okay for you to.

You, the staunch formalist of driving culture, are a child playing with a Rubik's cube, just to see the parts turn, but never to try and solve it. Then, you take your cube to a Track , and spend tons of money and time so you can pretend to solve it. But in the end of the day, you have done nothing impressive, constructive, additive, unique, creative, or lasting with your time. You have merely made yourself happy by doing something that anyone could do with enough money. That is the most selfish thing of all. It's no different than injecting heroin to make yourself happy and avoid going outside. Even I'm guilty of it, I want to drive constantly, not to do something interesting with my car, but to just feel the pleasure of driving. I find myself bogged down with finances, school, and life, and my automotive dream is constantly slipping away.

Do you know why beigemobiles are so popular? Because of you. Not because of people who don't care about cars, but because of the people who care but don't do anything with them . I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it means you are one of the biggest hypocrites of the automotive world. Your support of a system that breeds ignorance and unfounded hate for anyone who independently creates something new and unique out of their appliance has cost the USA tons in tax dollars that could go toward solving disease, improving education, or improving national health. All because you have some vague notion of safety or law that someone is violating, and it bothers you.

Through the cars you buy and the things you use them for, you have watered-down and diminished the driving experience. Through your own personal self-satisfying driving, you have turned racetracks from a friendly place to push limits, to an opiate for the wealthy and the lucky. You have turned abandoned roads from a friendly place to push limits, to an inefficient scare-tactic for your own political goals. You have adopted eachother's attitudes, beliefs, memes, and abilities, and you have given up your dreams in favor of an easier-to-swallow idea pre-made for you.

And in that conformity, you have forgotten what driving is.

But among you, there are individuals who are different. There are individuals, such as Mr. Afroduck, who are trying to solve that Rubik's cube. They have a goal, they are achieving it, and they are giving their experiences to the public, to thrill, inspire, and excite. Instead of going to the track and being one-of-a-million BMW drivers doing nothing impressive or constructive, patting themselves on the back for a job (of no consequence) well done, Afroduck created his own goal and achieved it safely and effectively in a way that no one else has. That's what driving is. Driving is making your Volvo last 1,000,000 miles. Driving is taking a quarter mile at 6 seconds or faster.

Driving is taking that hunk of metal and doing something with it completely unique, because you are not one-of-a-million-people. You are one.

I'm not saying that you should all be trying to do something crazy and unique with your cars. But I am saying that before you are even able to criticize Afroduck the way you did, you should know the difference between someone who does something like that and someone who comments the way you do. You should know the facts (above, subsection "ignorance") and you should think rationally.

Or, in other words... c'mon Oppo. You're better than this. Don't be stupid.

Remember this video?

I want you to think who that video applies to more. The commentor who is scared for their kids'safety from the big-bad-evil drivers who will kill them without a second glance... or Afroduck.

When this video was posted, I don't remember people commenting "Oh no! This video will inspire people to go do a horribly expensive and dangerous sport! They should be happy and safe and all do things the normal way! We can't have race car drivers who push the limits ! What if they kill spectators? What if they kill themselves? Think of the kids! "

It inspired people to do something with their lives.

To drive .

Maybe they're not driving a car. Maybe they're driving a desk job. Maybe they're driving a relationship. Maybe they're driving a gun, or a book, or a wheelchair. It's the ability to take the best of your resources, create something new, and give it to the public in a way that they could never do. To challenge and enlighten with the same action.

That is driving.

That is why we drive special cars. Why we customize, why we break the law, why we help eachother with opinion and advice. Because we want to see more drivers in the world. Oppo is beautiful for that, and that is why we have such a tight-knit community.

So if you're going to start pulling bullshit like the comments in that article, then just remember that going down that road means giving up all of that enthusiasm, and becoming something significantly weaker than you are right now.

I hope next time a street racing article is posted, people actually stop and think about the content being presented, and judge it fairly, instead of working on superstition, fear, hear-say and weakness.

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Just to clarify some confusion,

I'm not saying "go out and street race". I'm not saying "Everyone should do something unique with their cars" (pretty sure I typed that out almost verbatim in the post...) I'm saying: don't be a hypocrite, idiot, or fear-mongering slime when you're commenting on stuff like this. Use facts, knowledge, and recognize the skill and effort required to pull stuff like that off successfully. Then, if you're going to still condemn those actions, which you are perfectly free too, have the common sense to accept that you then should condemn a vast majority of successful scenarios as well that were not safe or pleasant.

The only action I'm calling for is more informed commenting. I don't want Oppo to turn into a foaming-at-the-mouth idiot every time the word "Street" is put in front of "racing". That makes the whole community and the website look bad, and really waters down the experience.

DISCUSSION (62)

4B11tFTW! > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 01:20

Well said.

desertdog5051 > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 01:22

Fascinating comment/opinion.

pdthedeuce > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 01:23

you don't seem to have the ability to differentiate between driving and racing .

GhostZ > pdthedeuce
09/05/2013 at 01:29

Commuting, driving, racing, and motor vehicle operation are the same set of actions. It's just situation and opinion that determine the difference. You could say this entire post is a play on words with the fact that we separate "racing" and "driving" into completely different categories, when really they're just using a machine to do what you want, with their own constraints and goals.

The point you should get is that the people criticizing his actions (without facts) seem to be doing it with their motives completely ignorant of their demands. Oppo just seemed, whenever such a article is posted, to forget and ignore the purpose, skill, and success of his driving. Or racing. Or commuting. Or motor vehicle operation. Or whatever you want to call it.

NinetyQ > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 01:32

I don't really think your point is well-founded. Early in, you set up the statistics to point favorably at street racing as a sport where few if any ever get hurt. But what you should really be looking at is the likelihood of death or injury per occurrence. Street racing would be much higher than business-as-usual driving because of the factors involved. Afroduck's lap, while fortunate enough not to hurt someone, could easily have done so. One pedestrian in the wrong place at the wrong time, or if someone had been passing through that intersection when he ran the red light...

Who are you to say that someone taking it to the track is "doing nothing constructive or additive?"

pdthedeuce > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 01:35

I admire your passion on the matter , but the fact remains that this driver , although skilled , was also irresponsible on a criminal level .

GhostZ > NinetyQ
09/05/2013 at 01:38

It wasn't my intention at all to point to it as a sport where few get hurt. If I was doing that, I would have posted similar stats to other sports. I mean to say that if you're going to pay money to save lives, doing it by going after street racing is highly inefficient for the money. It was going after all of the accusations that the government should give street racers long-term jail time.

Also, if you can do something that no one else at the track can do, and make people interested in it and excited by just your actions, more power to you. But, again, people say that these drivers should stay on a track, which goes completely against the goals that they otherwise completed safely.

It's not a matter of saying "don't take it to the track" it's a matter of saying "don't criticize if the best you can offer is paying for a few slow laps around a track".

The Stampi > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 01:40

Maybe I'm not following you, but to me it sounds like you are justifying putting other people in danger against their will so you can feel special/not sad/like a for realz race car driver. If someone wants to light shit up on an empty road in the middle of the night, go for it. Depending on the skill of the driver, it may or may not be very dangerous. Open roads that have other vehicles on them is another story entirely. The whole "I'm a very skilled driver so I can drive 30 mph of the speed limit" mentality is really tired. That shit doesn't hold water and here's why; Senna was likely a better driver than 99.9% of the people who use this excuse and he is dead. Maybe you drive like an F1 star day in and day out, weaving in and out of traffic and speeding your ass off and everything is fine. But when you make that one mistake going 100 with the traffic around you going 65, you'll prolly kill someone. All because people think that the only factor involved in their driving is their own skill.

The other problem I have with your argument is that you seem to think that everyone should give a dam about "enthusiastic driving". This is the same argument as when we talk about manual Vs. slush or wagon Vs. sedan. Not everyone cares about going fast. Some people drive simply to get where they are going. This mentality of these people being the enemy is just stupid. You will never convince all those drivers to embrace street racing all day ery day, so it makes no sense to try and make them look like the bad guys or put them at risk for your own selfish reasons.

Finally, I bet you would completely lose your shit if some asshole was following you around out in public just juggling swords right next to you. Maybe he's really good and doesn't drop them very often. But you don't know for sure. All you know is some guy is running around you slinging sharpened steel around. But you know what? That's what makes him feel alive. So by your logic, you should just STFU and let this person continue to put your life at risk for no reason and with not permission from you.

Just re-read this and thought I should clarify: I am not angry, nor do I dislike you. It comes across angry sounding when I read it now, but I am about to leave work so I don't have time to edit it. Please don't take it as a personal attack

GhostZ > pdthedeuce
09/05/2013 at 01:40

That's fine. I'm just saying that he can be an irresponsible criminal if it means no one gets hurt and he gets to do something groundbreaking and thrilling, and shares that with the rest of the world. He knew the cost going into this, and that's why I wish the NYPD luck too. It will be interesting to see how they fight over this, and how far the NYPD is willing to go in wasting resources trying to catch this guy.

GhostZ > The Stampi
09/05/2013 at 01:45

You completely missed the point.

I'm calling out idiots and hypocrites who misread, misinterpret, and blindly accuse someone who very carefully did something very successfully and safely. The only action I'm prompting is for people to look more carefully at what they post and what they see before they comment.

People don't even need to be enthusiastic about driving, but that if you're going to comment and call yourself an enthusiast, you need to accept that a vast majority of widely-accepted "enthusiasm" should support this guy's actions.

I'm not condoning street racing or telling people to go out and do something stupid. I'm telling commenters on oppo to get their heads out of their ass and quit reiterating the same non-factual comments before they ruin other people's driving experiences too.

J. Walter Weatherman > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 01:45

Sorry man, but you are just way off base here. That was some nice impassioned writing, but nothing even remotely approaching a cogent argument anywhere in it.

Just because Afroduck didn't hurt himself or anyone else on his lap does not mean what he did was safe. It means he was lucky. If I put one bullet in a revolver, spin the cylinder, put it to my head and pull the trigger, I may survive, but that certainly does not mean what I did was safe, it means I got lucky. What Afroduck did was no different - except it wasn't just his life he was risking.

You make comparisons to the McLaren video or flying an SR-71, but those things have nothing to do with street racing. When racing on a track, or flying a plane, the only people's lives that are in danger are people that voluntarily put themselves in harm's way. When street racing, you risk the lives of innocent people that never agreed to be in harm's way, just so some selfish kid could have some cheap fun. If driving fast is that important to you, you can make the sacrifices necessary to get track time. If you still can't afford it, well, that sucks, but racing a car is a privilege, not a right.

At the end of the day this and this are the risks of street racing, and there just aren't any benefits that outweigh those risks, other than a quick and fleeting adrenaline rush for some stupid selfish young kid.

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NinetyQ > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 01:48

I agree that it's inefficient to go after it as far as legal action. No argument there.

The people against street racing such as this are against it not because someone is wasting gas, shredding tires, or accomplishing a safe (and fast) lap time; they're against it because it puts the unwitting public at risk. When you're hurling a 3,000+ lb. object through the streets much faster than the traffic around you, things can go wrong in a hurry regardless of how prepared you are. Afroduck was skilled and lucky enough that nothing bad did happen, but that doesn't mean we ought to just applaud him for putting people at risk.

Think of it like a knife thrower suddenly throwing knives toward you and narrowly missing your head each time. If you didn't sign up for such shenanigans and didn't want to be put at risk, wouldn't you get upset (or at least have reason to be upset), even though he never hurt you?

pdthedeuce > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 01:48

I guess my problem with this whole thing is , if one guy had to work late , and was on the road at a time that this guy hadn't anticipated , we're discussing a manslaughter case , and I don't think this driver truly figured in that part of "the price" of his actions.

GhostZ > NinetyQ
09/05/2013 at 01:54

A more accurate metaphor would be like watching someone doing a knife-throwing trick in a room full of knives that people are walking around, while other people are blindly shoving other people around. There is already tons of danger, people accepted that coming in. There is one very skilled knive thrower giving a performance, while there are many idiots who are likely going to push someone else onto a knife because they aren't watching where they are going. Meanwhile, there are some people working to help you not get stabbed.

Yeah, the knife guy (racer) seems pretty evil, but after a few minutes you can tell that he has yet to hurt anyone and some people are enjoying his show, while others are obviously bothered by it still, but no one who enters that room (gets in a car) is going to do it without realizing there is some risk. However, literally (again, the stats) 100x more deaths are being caused by the idiots shoving and moving around, causing deadly stabbings.

If you looked into that room, would the first thing you'd point out be the knife thrower?

It's not a question of whether I would be bothered by the knife, that's an emotional response. It's a question of looking at the whole scenario, and making an informed judgement.

The Stampi > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 01:55

Ok, I see your point, but I'd argue its still not right. Like in my metaphor, I don't care how skilled you are or how much planning you did, other drivers didn't sign up to be part of your exhibition. That's what closed courses are for

GhostZ > pdthedeuce
09/05/2013 at 01:58

I think he wholeheartedly did. That's why he didn't just slam into cars and cause damage to get his record. He did it skillfully. He wasn't driving at 100% because he knew something could happen at any moment.

And when you get down to it, keep looking at death stats. One manslaughter case costs the entire society, in terms of what benefit the average person can do for those around him, maybe a .001% increase in taxes to provide the same benefit. It's a sad story, no one wants to die, but at the end of the day, people die. Risk happens. You have to just be aware of your surroundings. In order for us to have good, happy, nice lives someone has to do all the shit and misery and die early because of it. If you take emotional reaction out of the situation, it's just not as bad as it seems.

NinetyQ > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 01:58

No, your metaphor isn't more accurate. I get the point you're trying to make though. People do accept that there is risk when driving, but generally-speaking, average daily driving is a fairly harmless activity.

For instance, if I'm on a highway, cruising along at 70, I shouldn't have to constantly check my mirrors for someone flying up doing 120 on the off-chance that it does happen. Checking mirrors and expecting the unexpected is good, but what you're basically advocating is making those habits far more necessary than they would normally need to be if everyone drove as they should.

100x more deaths are being caused by distractions and idiots, I'll agree there. But that's because distracted driving happens probably 1,000,000 times more often than street racing, and that makes street racing more dangerous per occurrence. I'll happily retract that if there are stats out there that say otherwise, but I doubt there are.

pdthedeuce > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 02:00

no , you're saying it's ok for someone else to die for HIS entertainment , and I don't agree .

GhostZ > The Stampi
09/05/2013 at 02:00

Actually, a closed course probably does more harm to the society than a whole group of racers. Consider how much resources, space, and time is dumped into that track, compared to how much use you get out of it. It's worse with things like Football stadiums or golf courses, but recreation is really expensive when it has to take up that much space.

But I'm not going to run the stats on it just to figure out where the line is drawn.

GhostZ > pdthedeuce
09/05/2013 at 02:07

Do you smoke, eat anything unhealthy, go to the movies, play sports, or drive a car? Because all of those cause harm to people around you where the money could be spent on scientific improvement, humanitarian efforts, and more efficient ways of satisfaction.

I'm saying that all entertainment comes at a price. It just seems to "hurt more" when that price is risk toward someone a little more like yourself, than a sure-thing cost to people far away or with less power than you. So be informed about what certain entertainment does for people, and how expensive it really is, and where that cost is going.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 02:07

While I agree with you on several points, what really made my opinion about this case was that, as you said, he knew the risks of his actions, but he also possibly involved other people who were oblivious to the risks, unrelated to his objective and unprepared to deal with the situation. It wasn't the broken laws and speed limits that bothered me,

Comparing his Manhattan dash to professional racing or space travel doesn't seem to be really fair, at least to me, the main difference being that the people involved in these two activities, even spectators and bystanders, are aware and willing of the risks involved. The people directly involved with them, namely drivers and astronauts, are trained and experienced professionals, who didn't just crawl out of the internet one day to become famous. Sure, maybe Afroduck is a well accomplished professional driver, maybe he had a whole team of spotters supporting him and giving him directions, but we don't know that yet. As it stands now, he's just some random internet guy who could have really ruined someone else's week. Or month.

As for success v. failure, I know this is hardly a fair comparison either, and I hope it doesn't come across as offensive, but by that same token one could not condemn the 9/11 attacks, since the terrorists had a clear objective at which they succeeded via the use of two vehicles. Or, on a more level comparison, when I brought my car over to college, not wrecking was also one of my objectives, and I would have done it, if not for an unfortunate sum of elements, one of which was my own recklessness, that led me to rear end a VW Fox with no tailights on a rainy day. I was responsible for the accident, the other guy was responsible for the accident and elements out of our control contributed for the accident to happen, even though we didn't intend for it to happen.

pdthedeuce > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 02:09

I respect your right to your opinion . I stand by mine .

Brian, The Life of > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 02:15

Afroduck just got lucky. Period. Also, I'm the one who suggested Spiegel's comment to Raphael for COTD specifically because of the misguided responses that post received. A street racer who hasn't crossed it up is like a biker who hasn't laid it down. They just haven't done so YET.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > NinetyQ
09/05/2013 at 02:17

Exactly. One knife thrower might not be as dangerous as several people distractedly pushing and shoving each other around, but it does constitute an element of risk that needn't be there. The moment he makes one mistake, someone's getting stabbed...

GhostZ > NinetyQ
09/05/2013 at 02:18

Deaths per occurrence is completely pointless from the perspective of enforcement. It's a factor, yes, but is absolutely negligible when the cost is higher, but the volume of death is so much lower. More importantly, deaths by non-participants by street racers are somewhere in the 10s per year (same article as was in the post has that I think) Street racing would need to be that much more cost effective to stop than any other form of driving to consider it as deadly as commenters say it is.

At the same time, even though safety gains are tiny from even a huge response against the act, the same act that is being condemned is also the source and similarity to a lot of other actions that the community supports. It's this emotional opinion that pushes the cost of one 'cool thing' away while making the cost of another 'cool thing' seem horrible and obvious, even if the cost is much lower. That's what I'm saying is bad.

Everyone shouldn't be going out and driving absurdly fast. Most people can't. They're untalented, bad, and downright dangerous to themselves and others. But this guy wasn't, and he pulled his goal off well. I'm saying that you can't put him up on a cross and burn him because of emotion, because a lot of facts state otherwise, and that I would expect Oppo to be more informed about. Their comments on the article were disappointing and troubling.

The Stampi > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 02:19

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one I'm guessing. I can say that no one can accuse you of lacking spirit

GhostZ > BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion
09/05/2013 at 02:27

That 9/11 comparison is exactly the type of thing I was hoping people would get out of this. I am sad that so many people died, it was terrible for America, but 9/11 was a resounding success. It was incredible how it happened, and it was so efficient. Pearl Harbor as well, and many other military operations (D-Day, etc.). The fact is, what we consider right and wrong is just a set of expectations the others force on us. It's success and failure that determine the fate of the world, ultimately. We can't use our own emotion to say one thing is truly evil or not, because in some other scenario, that action could easily be contextualized as great and amazing.

How much you care, how much skill and time you put in, and how much you prepare ahead of time, determine your success. In the case of your wreck, while no one intended for it, any one of you could have had the skill to avoid it. Likewise, he had the skill to avoid his own wreck in Manhattan.

Someone else commented with the "knife thrower "argument, which addresses your concern about innocent lives. Its something that I've heard a few times before, that street racing is like a knife thrower throwing knives at your head without your consent. Even if he is skilled and missing deliberately, whose to say something bad won't happen and you get killed? The problem is that I'm not justifying risk or danger, I'm condemning not looking at the whole scenario, to the point where skill goes completely unrecognized, and any sort of creative use of automobile is lost.

The knife throwing argument ignores the fact that much more dangerous actions (in both volume, frequency, and risk) happen, and that there is a cost of prevention, as well as a cost of any entertainment value sought elsewhere. When you consider those things, it just becomes a waste of time to try and convince everyone to hate street racers and step up enforcement.

GhostZ > The Stampi
09/05/2013 at 02:29

Also, these were all great comments. This is what I expect when a street racing article is posted. Careful argument, calm discussion, and supporting reasons. Not the bullshit that resulted on the FP. I probably wouldn't have even made this post if it was just a bunch of burners or non-frequent-commenters, but I rely on this community for a lot of car knowledge and my own entertainment. I like to see it have good discussion, even if I get a little rant-heavy at times.

J. Walter Weatherman > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 02:31

I'm even more confused by your edit. You think anyone that accepts any level of risk in their life is a hypocrite for not wanting to accept the additional risk of allowing street racing? You think that people can't speak out against one unnecessary risk that they see unless they also speak out against all other risks in the world?

Also, you are acting like street racing is the only thing people on here have ever complained about. People on here condemn all sorts of unsafe driving all the time, be it street racing, distracted driving, or just straight up lack of driver's ed. In fact, of all those, street racing is probably the thing that is LEAST talked about on here. The Afroduck articles have brought the issue up recently, but that doesn't mean people are any less concerned about distracted driving or lack of education.

GhostZ > J. Walter Weatherman
09/05/2013 at 02:43

Not sure you read it right, but it was a rant, so let me explain.

If you condemn, hate, and spend your energy trying to denounce street racers and prevent any such action from occurring, you can't do it based on the danger of the action, the lack (or cost) of enforcement, the lack of skill in the driver, or the emotional response to it. Street racing is so much more innocent (yes, innocent) compared to the vast sea of preventable deaths out there, while at the same time, it provides an experience of thrill and entertainment to both participants and observers (such as this video) that it could be considered a costly, risky, but definitely very valid, service.

Whether it helps or hurts society overall doesn't matter, what matters is that while it may or may not help or hurt, and the amount it helps and hurts is very small, it does not, in any way, deserve a response that poorly informed and hateful, unless you're willing to ignore the far worse causes of indiscriminate preventable death. Especially not from the usually amiable and reasonable community here.

You can say that what he did was successful and dangerous, but you wouldn't do it or ask other people not to do it, as long as you accept that the stats support it as extremely over-enforced and almost negligible on a national scale in terms of danger and death. You also have to be willing to accept that the same method, thought, and emotions associated with street racing cannot be condemned without also condemning their roots in professional racing, or many other acts of life.

Or, more succinctly, before you express an opinion about street racing, recognize that the dude has serious skill and did something very impressive, and while you don't support it and wish it had never happened, it's worse off for everyone if we actually paid the cost it would take to stop these things.

I'm fine with people complaining about distracted driving, because I think it's at the point where marginal awareness can really save lives and improve people's own driving. Saving lives by stopping street racing? No. You're not getting anywhere with that, other than to scare people or obscure facts.

GhostZ > Brian, The Life of
09/05/2013 at 02:46

He did get lucky, but so does anyone who gets in a car and drives to work safely. Like I said, if he killed a family of 3, I'd be right there condemning his inability to be safe. At the end of the day though, I still feel as if the risk involved in his actions, compared to the reward, was relatively low considering what he did.

This wasn't posted directly at anyone (least of all Spiegel) but more on the general lack of knowledge (on both sides) and highly emotional and (generally) worthless responses from general faces around here. So far responses to this article have been way better and really informative.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 02:53

In the case of my wreck, I think it was less about having the skill to avoid it (by the time I shifted lanes, I was already too close to stop), and more about not putting myself in that situation to begin with. What really happened was that I pulled to the left lane to overtake a slower car and wound up rear ending a black car with no lights during terrible weather and with over 50 cm of water pooled up on the street (yeah, that's how deep our potholes are. In major avenues). I hydroplaned, but managed to swerve just about enough to the left to avoid hitting him head on.

But what I'm trying to get to here is that, by the time I switched lanes, a collision was unavoidable and, due to the weather, visibility and bad tires, making that pass was recklessness, recklessness born out of overconfidence that, since I know every single speed trap on that route, I could just do 80~90 kph (on a 50 zone) and slowdown for the traps. In the end it was a situation that I put myself into and that quickly became impossible to avoid. Real skill would have been to drive according to conditions, and not dashing off just because I felt like it.

As for the street racing, I agree that it's probably not worth the investment in law enforcement, since the people that made a regular hobby out of this probably won't quit just because of that, but I also think it adds a measure of pointless risk to the public roads. Whether the racers like it or not, they are involving other people in their actions, and, thrilling/creative as it is, it just doesn't seem a fair trade off. No one really benefits from these races, and they'll ultimately be forgotten in the long run. Even Afroduck's record, I believe it isn't really all that important in sort of a "grand scheme of things" sense, whatever that is.

J. Walter Weatherman > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 02:59

"as long as you accept that the stats support it as extremely over-enforced and almost negligible on a national scale in terms of danger and death."

Maybe this is where you lose me. It's not so much that I do not accept those stats, I don't think they exist.

Also, suffice it to say that in the cost-benefit analysis you seem to be attempting, I think that you are seriously overvaluing the subjective pleasure that people get from street racing, and severely undervaluing human life.

GhostZ > BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion
09/05/2013 at 03:03

You're completely right about the driving. I was stupid and followed a truck a little too closely in town one day a few years ago, and when he had to make a sudden stop, my brakes locked up and I slid my front bumper into his trailer hitch. Would a better driver had been able to not lock the brakes? Yeah. But a better driver would have known how close to follow for the amount of care and ability I had.

The first thing I taught myself after it was fixed was basic threshold braking and calculated safe following distances based on my own car and speeds it would drive at.

But in regards to the article, t's the same argument as building a track, factory, or a movie theater.

Yeah, some people will enjoy it, but it provides pointless risk to the surrounding environment, or the taxpayer's money, or the people who don't like movies and want something else there. Time sort of erodes all things, but if you're going for pure happiness and a little 15 minutes of fame, the risk probably was still worth the reward compared to a lot of things we actually support in society. Smoking is a similar example, or you can find risk in simply the of ease-of-access of dangerous things, like McDonalds. But even I have to say, I love McNuggets. The easier it is to get them, the more damage I do to myself when I have them.

On an existential level, I think the worst people in the world are those who have an able body and mind and creative thoughts, but let them sit aside to do nothing, and give nothing, to the world around them, refusing to act when they could. That's the point of capitalism: people who lack the ability or creativity to do something good can sell their own capabilities and creations (as labor or materials) to others who are better at managing them, in exchange for peace and comfort. We live in this economy in hopes that everyone gets something better in the end.

GhostZ > J. Walter Weatherman
09/05/2013 at 03:19

What do you mean they "don't exist?" That doesn't really make sense. The stats are clear as day and released yearly by the US government. I posted plenty of links, and I can post more if you want, I've done plenty of research into this, I just figured people would click through and check the numbers out for themselves. Street racing deaths per year are between 100-1000 usually, speeding deaths are around 30,000, all fatalities are around 80,000 (depending on the year, right now they're at a very low point at under 50,000) and the top causes (smoking, heart disease, etc.) are usually around the 300,000 - 400,000 range. Marginal cost of enforcement for less street racing deaths absurd. It's already demonized in the media and fines are steep compared to other, more dangerous crimes. There's no need to further pursue it unless you let silly emotion overtake reason.

Would you agree that building a race track, in a location where you could run a manufacturing business (that could provide just as much good, but with less damage to the environment, less resources used, and way less danger to people who live near it) is a bad idea?

Think with your head. Human life is only worth what it can create. This is not true because of some absolute morality or law that was written down. This is true because those who can create and have the power to act are those who will have the most impact on what it takes to begin, or end, a human life. Sad truth, but that's why America spends an incredible amount of money entertaining and supporting its citizens when other countries, even ones we do help but not enough, starve.

There's a point where you have to say "enough is enough" and you can't give everyone a happy idyllic existence. There comes a point where, with our limited resources, it's just not worth saving human lives everywhere. We have to pick and choose who can be saved. And by "we" I mean the people who have power to make informed decisions and actions. Obviously politicians, with far more power, have far more sway on who lives and who dies.

And considering no one died in that video and considering how few people die from street racing, I'd say that I'm not undervaluing human life, but being realistic about where live's values are.

Dusty Ventures > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 04:06

Fun fact. I LOVE numbers. But then I come from a family of engineers so that's to be expected I suppose. So when I saw you used statistics to prove your point I got all excited. However, after investigating your numbers and links I have a few questions.

Annual deaths due to "speeding" were 10,000 in 2009 [10,591 to be exact]. This number has been going down, primarily due to increased vehicle safety, since 2005.

I would argue the recession and reduction in miles driven played a larger factor. In 2008 and 2009 the number of miles driven in the U.S. dropped by 74 billion miles. In those same two years the number of fatalities dropped by over 7 thousand. The drop prior to 2008 and the recessnion (2005-2007) was a comparatively small 2,000 and since 2009 the drop was 1,500. Mind you throughout all this the number of miles driven has also continued to drop (with the exception of a slight increase in 2010), the first decrease in miles driven since 1980. And, one more bit of data, while I haven't found any final numbers for 2012 the 9 month data (in other words the numbers only go through September) suggests the number of total traffic fatalities increased over 2011, not decreased (and by nearly 2000 at that). Now, for my first actual question. I found the data saying total traffic fatalities have decreased since 2005, specifically here (I'm assuming that's the same source you used), but haven't found any saying specifically speeding fatalities have decreased since 2005, which is what it sounds like you're saying. Do you have the numbers for speeding?

A majority of these deaths happened during 55mph or 45mph highways, not in town on the street. This is 1/3rd of all traffic fatalities. A vast majority happened with only 1 car involved.

I followed your link and looked at the NHTSA chart and you're absolutely right. According to those stats 1/3 of all traffic fatalities are caused by speeding and majority (specifically 67.7%) of those speeding fatalities take place on roads with speed limits above 40. That said though in the case of Mr Afroduck a majority of the roads he was on fall in that "above 40" category.

Highway safety is past the marginal point of gain. We have passed the point where it is cost-effective to reduce road deaths. Why? Because motor vehicle accidents are 1/10th the size of any of the top 10 preventable deaths per year. What's the highest? Heart disease and hypertension.

Ok, first I'm curious if you have any numbers regarding how much it would cost to further reduce road deaths, since you say it's no longer cost effective. Second, The rest of this paragraph is factually inaccurate. You say "heart disease and hypertension" is the leading cause of preventable death. It's true that it's the leading cause of death, but not the leading cause of preventable death. In fact in the CDC article you linked to they said "In 2010, an estimated 200,070 avoidable deaths from heart disease, stroke, and hypertensive disease occurred in the United States, 56% of which occurred among persons aged <65." This CDC report says smoking is the leading cause of death, causing about 440,000 per year.

Now, that bit where you said "motor vehicle accidents are 1/10th the size of any of the top 10 preventable deaths per year." Near as I can tell not only is it incorrect to say MVA's are 1/10th the size of any of the top 10 causes, but some of the sources I found say it IS one of the top ten causes, sitting at #7, ahead of firearms, STDs, and drug abuse (MVAs are also the #1 cause of death for people between the ages of 16 and 20). True enough MVA fatalities are less than 1/10th of smoking, but if you're saying that because it's less than 1/10th it's no longer cost effective or practical to try and combat it (which is what it sounds like you're saying but I could be reading it wrong) then we should also stop trying to prevent deaths due to firearms, STDs, suicide, and (depending on the numberset you use) medical errors. In fact, MVA fatalities are almost high enough to make it on the CDC's overall list of top causes of death (as in all causes, be them preventable or not).

You say the number of drunk driving deaths needs to be addressed but not the number of speeding deaths because the number of speeding deaths is too small. However the number of people killed due to impairment is almost identical (it's actually a couple hundred lower) to the number killed due to speeding. Distracted driving meanwhile caused 1/3 the amount of fatalities that speeding did. So you're saying we should address two causes that kill fewer people than speeding but not worry about the speeding fatalities because "the number of deaths is too small?"

So what would you say, if it's not worth slowing people down, if I told you that deaths due to "street racing" measure in the 100s per year? Does it still seem like street racing is the demonic child-killing sport that the media (not Jalopnik, who I commend for keeping a cool head over this) and the commenters present it as?

As another commenter mentioned, there's a major issue with this data in that it doesn't compare the number of street racing fatalities to the number of people participating. And based on the link you used there's some logic to that argument, as it states "Nationwide statistics show that 49 people are injured for every 1,000 who participate in illegal street racing." It also says "In 1999, the Florida Department of Highway and Safety for Motor Vehicles reported 28 accidents related to illegal street racing, with 2 fatalities and 27 injuries. In 2000, the agency reported 39 racing accidents, with 1 fatality and 55 injuries. In 2002, there were 48 racing accidents, 1 fatality, and 60 injuries," which, since there are more people injured than there are accidents, shows it's not just solo crashes where the only one being harmed is the driver. But that's not my issue. My issue is with the age of the data and lack of data points. The first bullet says "In 2001, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reported that police listed street racing as a factor in 135 fatal crashes. The total was up from 72 street-racing-related fatalities reported in 2000." This means we're making guesses on current numbers based on data as old as the movie Shrek. And considering there was a 53% swing between 2000 and 2001 we really can't make any rational assumptions on the current number of fatalities due to street racing. If that 53% increase remained steady the number of street racing fatalities in 2012 would be 14,393. If it was a linear increase of 63 per year (the increase from 2000 to 2001) the number would be 765. I don't believe the actual number to be as high as either of those figures, but it shows the dangers of using old, limited data, particularly when the data points don't show any kind of steady pattern. If you have more data points or newer data I would love to see it. I'm genuinely interested to see how street racing fatalities trended. Did they climb? Did they drop? Did they too mirror the recession? I'm genuinely curious now.

Enginerrrrrrrrr > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 08:27

The analogy of the SR-71 and Space Shuttle is ridiculous... it's not like people have the ability to make a space shuttle in their backyard and fly to the moon. There's rules and regulations with that... just like... wait for it... racing.

It seems like you are supporting this guy just because he met his goal. Who cares? I saw that you mentioned how 9/11 was a resounding success because the goals were met. Yes, technically that is true, but it was completely awful and life would be better if it never happened. What makes a goal better than another?

You make it seem like you would completely support this guy all the way through his run, but if he hit some guy at the end of it, well fuck him then, he's an asshole. This doesn't make sense. If you continue to support people who make unnecessarily risky decisions, eventually more people are going to be hurt for no reason.

Just because street racing doesn't kill as many people every year, it doesn't mean we don't have to focus on it. It's low-hanging fruit. It's easier to stop people street racing than it is to make it illegal to eat fast food (seriously what kind of comparison is that?). Just because less people die, doesn't make it any less important, people still die.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/05/26/1-d…

BJ > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 08:48

You argument is well stated and I understand what you're trying to say, but this particular passage didn't sit well with me:

As others have also mentioned, you're suggesting that it's OK to put other people's lives in danger without giving them the choice to accept that danger. Nobody asked those 100 people if they were OK with a street race, and nobody asked those 100 families if they'd mind very much seeing a loved one die.

Street racing is illegal because it's a dangerous and inappropriate activity on our shared, public roads. We all contribute to the creation and maintenance of those roads, and as a society, must all contribute to the safe and reasonable use of those roads.

I concede to your point that Afroduck succeeded in the execution of something difficult and challenging, but I disagree completely that it was an acceptable thing to do.

dieselwagon > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 09:16

I get your arguments but I have to agree with the others that your position is flawed. I can be impressed at his achievement and the skill of his driving while also being disappointed that someone would take such risks, not for themselves but for other pedestrians and drivers who had no idea this guy was doing it.

As other commenter's implied, the facts and statistics probably only work in your favor as most people, especially ones talented enough for street racing, are sensible enough to realize it's not worth it. You're implicitly allowing anyone who just thinks they're good enough to break all traffic laws, until they kill someone. As long as they're trying to achieve some personal goal of course.

Your viewpoint essentially means anyone who's rich enough and with lawyers can do what ever they want, because cost effective prosecution would not be possible. Laws are not supposed to created on a cost-effective/enforcement basis, they are used as a framework to keep society functioning and a reasonably safe place for everyone. (There are plenty of laws to disagree with. Civil disobedience in regard to street racing isn't going to win any hearts or minds.)

There are already enough bad drivers out on the road, without good drivers making the situation worse by driving in a way that few fellow road users would ever really anticipate, especially the bad drivers. The idea behind not street racing isn't because you're not good enough, it's because the drivers and pedestrians around you will NOT know how to react when the unanticipated hazard approaches.

That there will always be risks involved in driving is not a reason to increase those risks for ones own entertainment, putting non-willing participants safety and indeed lives at risk. When I drive I accept the risks that other (bad) drivers will be a hazard. I am, at not prepared for racing drivers to be a hazard every time I get in the car to go to work. In your world, I would have to be watching out for not only bad drivers, but street racers of all degrees of skill.

GhostZ > Enginerrrrrrrrr
09/05/2013 at 09:21

I think you missed the point. Those comparisons were designed to explain to people that if they're going to criticize and hate something constructive that was pulled off right, they should recognize a shared value and method put into it. You can hate, but you still have to respect and look at things for the facts.

Personally, if he killed someone during his run, it would be unfortunate, but people die for more stupid reasons daily. I'd rather see someone die from trying to beat a record and do something interesting than from drug overdose, lung cancer, or heart disease in an otherwise mediocre life. It just so happens that the latter happens on a huge scale, but we completely ignore it, while the former is fought tooth-and-nail at the expense of tons of money and time.

GhostZ > J. Walter Weatherman
09/05/2013 at 09:22

When racing on a track, or flying a plane, the only people's lives that are in danger are people that voluntarily put themselves in harm's way.

No. Wrong. This is a completely false statement that feeds the type of ignorance I'm talking about. It is the center of a lot of arguments here, and it do not hold water.

The very existence of a racetrack provides harm to thousands of people who never even visit it, over a long period of time. There is a cost and a risk associated with building, running, and maintaining a race track. It is legalized because it can be taxed and have some loss regained. It is legalized because certain people in power decided they wanted to hurt others for their own enjoyment, and got it built.

Racetracks are great, but to say that they do less harm for the good they do is stupid. All forms of entertainment have some cost on human life in the end. Just because the cost is shifted on "someone else" or that it takes a longer time doesn't mean you are allowed to ignore it.

I can't think of a single scenario where running a racetrack, as opposed to a more profitable business that does more good with less space, pollution, or waste, does less damage than a single street racer killing a family. Just because the damage is closer to home and more obvious doesn't mean it is more important or allows us to ignore the other costs.

GhostZ > dieselwagon
09/05/2013 at 09:34

I'm not saying people are allowed to street race. I stated that a few times. I'm not saying they should or that it's right. I'm posting that if you're going to viciously criticize street racers, you have to recognize the constructive gain they did compared to the time, care, and skill they pulled it off safely with, and that in the end, the people you are criticizing are attempting to do (and in this case, rather successfully) things on the level that a lot of very highly-regarded individuals did too.

It just shocks me that people who seem to be perfectly okay consigning these absurd jail times or capital punishment, who completely ignore facts and reason, are the same people who are okay with far worse things that damage society worse, and otherwise seem to be rational and functioning human beings.

GhostZ > Dusty Ventures
09/05/2013 at 09:37

This is actually a really awesome comment. I was expecting it to pick and poke holes in any data I had to serve some political or social end, but in reality, you (like me) just want to see more numbers and get to the facts.

The data is sparse, and I've tried to do the best with what I could. I would not have my stance on this issue that I do if there wasn't data to support my claims. That being said, beyond a vague idea from a few years compiled data, there isn't much more to go off of. I've researched this a few times over the years, and didn't take the time to put everything I could find here, but I got enough to get across the notion that the data does not support street racing as a terribly deadly activity worth further enforcement.

There were a few points where I didn't specify (by 1/10th the size, I believe I was talking only about speeding, not all MVAs, but I didn't specify in the rant-typing mode one tends to get in) and I should have posted some drunk driving stats, but I wanted to get to the point of the article and didn't.

dieselwagon > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 09:41

I don't disagree at all with your response. It's a nuanced opinion that didn't necessarily come through in your original comments, it read more as a justification rather than social commentary.

There are certainly bigger, much more troubling issues in society. A lynching or the death penalty is certainly not an appropriate response to that video. Community service and a driving ban sounds more appropriate in my opinion.

Some people do indeed have their priorities very much in the wrong order. I also appreciate the respectful and cordial tone you have taken with this discussion.

GhostZ > BJ
09/05/2013 at 09:43

I'm not suggesting it's okay to put other people's lives in danger (despite the fact that people's lives are affected negatively by pretty much everything we do, especially by large businesses) and I try to make a point of not condoning his actions, while still demonstrating the skill and importance of his actions, and weighting it against far more dangerous things that are ignored, as well as drawing parallel to far more similar actions that are supported by this community.

This is all done to the end of getting constructive, informed discussion about street racing, instead of the horribly ignorant responses to most articles here. So far, it has been a resounding success, and a lot of these comments are great. Some are flat out wrong, but even those are well-explained and constructive.

GhostZ > dieselwagon
09/05/2013 at 09:45

The whole point of this was to generate some good discussion on the street racing, and I was not dissappointed.

I'd say in the end, the amount of frustration I felt at the idiocy at this community's responses to those articles has been sufficiently (and even more than) satisfied by the well-thought-out and interesting responses to this article.

dieselwagon > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 09:53

It can be harder to get the discussion going, but Oppo is a much better place for it.

As others have mentioned, they've stopped reading Jalopnik due to the degrading quality of the comments... I have to admit i'm on the verge of joining the camp and just staying in Oppo.

GhostZ > dieselwagon
09/05/2013 at 10:00

That would be true, but there was a few Oppo-ites who were jumping the "lets flame the shit out of this guy" bandwagon.

Dusty Ventures > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 10:28

Even if you're only talking about speeding deaths they still equal more than 1/10th of all but the top two causes of preventable death (smoking and obesity). In fact speeding deaths equal 1/3 of all firearms deaths (#8), 1/2 of all deaths due to sexually transmitted diseases (#9) and nearly 2/3 of all diseases due to drug use (#10)

Enginerrrrrrrrr > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 10:37

I agree that it is quite impressive that the guy was able to pull this off and he has some serious talent. There are better ways of showing this talent than having the potential for hurting an innocent bystander.

Sure it's better to see someone go as they try to cross into the unknown of man's abilities, breaking speed records, lap records, etc. Doing it in a place where people don't want to be involved but you are involving them anyway? Well now you are breaching their freedoms.
Yes drugs, cancer, and heart disease are a huge part of death in the USA, but things are getting better. It's typically illegal to own the drugs that can send you into an overdose, smoking in public places is all but illegal now, and there has been a huge media campaign to cut back on fattening foods. We aren't completely ignoring them.

It's easier to stop something like street racing where you can kill innocent people standing on the sidewalk than it is to stop someone from smoking/eating/doing drugs where they are generally just killing themselves. The public wants to be in control of themselves even if it means stuffing a krispy kreme cheeseburger in their face. Now if someone came along and stuffed it in my face without my consent, well I'd be pissed off.

In the end, yeah, this guy is a great driver and I wish I had his skill. The way he showed it? No, it's just going to encourage some talentless pricks to try it and then more people will get hurt. Heck Afroduck might just get unlucky one day and kill someone else, professional racecar drivers crash sometimes, why not him?

DasWauto > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 20:04

Quite the rant you made here. This is going to be in the 'best of Oppo' and you're going to get some [more] flak for sure. You can opt out of that if you like, just let me know.

Money Hustard > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 21:04

You are absofuckinglutely right here.

I have no idea why people are so uptight about this. Safety is one thing. Motoring excellence is another. I think the two can be appreciated separately.

Anton > GhostZ
09/05/2013 at 21:44

GhostZ > DasWauto
09/06/2013 at 02:51

I have loved the comments on this article. They have more than made up for the terrible discussion on the front page and Oppo has really shined in its ability to hold an awesome automotive forum together.

Al > GhostZ
09/06/2013 at 08:59

Great post, would love to respond but I am working but really good stuff

jpunk > GhostZ
09/06/2013 at 09:51

I like how you dressed up the self-righteous irresponsibility with self-appointed "objectivity" and a bunch of motivational poster nonsense about living to be a unique snowflake.

Afroduck might be good, but his successful run came down exclusively to luck because the public roads aren't a controlled environment and he's the only one out being stupid at exactly that time of night. That's exactly the difference between road and track. One slip-up on somebody else's part and you've said yourself that his street-racing would have been reprehensible. That's kindergarten logic, giving selfish and stupid ideas a pass as long as they turn out alright.

Out of curiosity you say you're talking about "driving", and then dismiss lapping a track because it's conformist ( and therefore bad) while praising lower speeds around an easier route as beauty or whatever middle-management is calling the output of the creative class (and therefore good ). None of the value judgement is about the driver's skill or the capability of their machine, just the where and why... what I get is that you're criticizing the community here for not using our cars as a route to internet fame . We're beige and boring because nothing we do makes good youtube. Sorry cupcake but maybe, just maybe, we're not driving for your entertainment.

Poundingsand > GhostZ
09/06/2013 at 11:11

"Afroduck was successful. That's the thing. If he lapped Manhattan in 45 minutes and caused 3 wrecks along the way, I'd condemn the guy. But he lapped Manhattan in 24 minutes and caused no wrecks ."

I kind of liken this to firing off an automatic weapon in a shopping mall. If I don't actually hit anybody, all is cool?

GhostZ > Poundingsand
09/06/2013 at 11:14

A more accurate comparison is Afroduck carefully firing at a target in a shopping mall, where all of the shoppers have guns too, and a good number of them have no idea how to use them, but they fire randomly just for the hell of it too, except they aren't aiming at anything.

Poundingsand > GhostZ
09/06/2013 at 12:25

Don't forget the little children and pets running around. Without guns. haha

rodassecondo > GhostZ
09/06/2013 at 14:47

Today, after seeing the afroduck arrest and started to read the comments, i did think to myself that the best part of jalopnik , the comments, are beginning to annoy me. And the accident of the truck... all these news are not what jalopnik was.

Then i read your comment and i think that there is still hope. You take it a bit far, though.. But i like your open mindness.

In regard to afroduck, i think that he is an idiot, and probably should be punished so that people dont start doing it for fame. But his driving was NOT that bad. Had to see the video again and i really cannot understand the comments. Switching lanes, cutting corners in a one way road ? We all do it.

Simplecar > GhostZ
09/06/2013 at 17:08

I have been a silent follower of oppo till now. This article actually made me join this community. I would like to to applaud your post. Brilliant writing. I couldn't have done better. Before, I do write down my thoughts on this subject, if you don't mind, I would like to just give one suggestion:

I think you need take some more time to write and edit your articles. Although, I couldn't have written about it any better, but I think you needed a little more time to articulate your thoughts and put it down in a much better manner. Your research work is ok with me, hence I am not so much bothered on that aspect.

Now, coming to what I think about your article (or post):

I guess you were trying to say that whenever someone who does something which he likes (and even if that is something say like robbery or terrorist attack) one must do it well. It is going to impact on others lives in ways which are beyond most of our imagination anyhow. Even if you were to invent something great for the humanity (like say a cure for cancer), it will affect someone's life at some point and some place in a way it was never intended to be (maybe the drug has some very rare side-effect which essentially turns the patient into a monster:)). There is no escaping that. Laws are always going to be for the benefit of the majority. I agree with that.

One may argue that will I be ok if somebody were to commit a heinous crime on someone I love (like say a murder, or something even worse) just because he/she loves it and is good at it? To all those people, I will say, I do not know how I will react until I am in that situation. I may take it maturely and go on with my life and do something to improve it, or I may become a mass murderer all the same. I don't know, and it is foolish to speculate what could happen if such and such thing would have been prevented.

Someone gave a comparo of the 9/11 in the US.. that life would have been better had it never occured. How are you so sure? I am personally saddened by the loss as well. My empathies to all those who lost their loved ones. I can fully understand. However, it might have had a good effect somewhere for the nation, even if we are unable to see it right now. All the same that event may have had a bad impact on the future. Nobody can say for certain. We'll come to know eventually or we will never come to know.

It is plain stupid to speculate what can be and what could have been. Your actions speak so loudly, that I cannot hear your words.

In japan, drifting started as a sport on public roads. Drifters practiced in public areas (yeah, I know they were safe et all).

What about the midnight club? You may argue that they were shut down for good, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate their skills/integrity.

Humans are going to break laws and endanger each other every time. There is no stopping that.

I for one admire afroduck's skill. Indeed, very well executed (luck was on his side, but then every successful venture has that). The law enforcing agencies should punish him publicly, but then give him his license back when the attention has died down. Let him of with some community service (maybe serve the guys who have been left debilitated by accidents caused by immature shits?) and a stern warning that the next time such an incident happens, he will be given the harshest punishment as per the law.

I hope I have made my point clear. I am not justifying afroducks actions. That is for the think-tanks to debate and decide. I am not a person who can really express his thoughts very well. I hope I have not hurt anyone's sentiments/emotions. I am personally a family-guy who loves his family a lot.

GhostZ > Simplecar
09/07/2013 at 01:13

This was a very late-at-night rant and is non-indicative of my usual writing. It was rather rushed.

That being said, I'm pretty much on-board with everything you just posted. I avoided mentioning the drifting, Mid Night Club, and (the many) other videos and racing groups over in the past in my article because I felt that they wouldn't be sufficient examples. Its much easier to hate all forms of a street racing when it is convenient, so I talked about more general things.

Great post.