Off Topic Question For The Evening

"Jaaag Hartley" (05hartleyjack) 08/28/2013 at 16:09 • Filed to: Off Topic: Syria

0

24

Syria.

Since it looks increasingly likely that my country, most of your' country, and France, will begin military action in Syria, what are your opinions?

Are you glad that the "west" is finally doing something about this horrible and bloody civil war?

Or are you sick of us acting like the babysitters for the rest of the world?

My opinion was firmly for military action, it has been since the first few months of the civil war. But, I'm now not so sure, I want us (the ones with the moral obligation) to do something to stop the killing of so many innocent people especially in such barbaric ways as gas attacks, but I have also seen too many of our soldiers die in my short life. And I am aware that there will be consequences to any attack (Iran is already threatening a counter attack on Israel).

So what do you guys think?

Brian, The Life of > Jaaag Hartley 08/28/2013 at 16:14

7

What do I think? My son is a senior in high school and my country has been "at war" since he was in kindergarten. I'm really sick and tired of this bullshit.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Jaaag Hartley 08/28/2013 at 16:17

2

I say, and this is very, very draconian, that we (The West/Europe/Non-Arab-Speaking Countries) finally put our collective feet down.

Our stance would be: We will leave you all the fuck alone. Sunni, Shiite, we don't care. Fight it out yourselves if you can't find another means of settling your differences. We will not intervene.

However, should anyone from any of these countries attempt to, or initiate an attack on any Western Nation, We will turn the entirety of the Gulf States into glass.

Good Luck Fuckers. We're watching you. Let us know when you're ready to behave and treat people like human beings.

Firewrx234 > Jaaag Hartley 08/28/2013 at 16:19

2

Unfortunately, things aren't as easy as black or white. This is one of those times. But you have to ask yourself: "Is it better to do something, when you know that 'It is not our place' or to not do something and let more and more senseless civilian murders occur?"

I personally see both sides. Going in will only ensure more bloodshed for everyone, whereas, staying out will only ensure the safety of ourselves.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that just don't understand the value of human life, but is it our place to decide the fate of their own? Tough questions.

Brian Tschiegg > Brian, The Life of 08/28/2013 at 16:21

1

You said it. Between Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Oman, Libya, Egypt, and pretty much the entire world, I am tired of spending my money and resources to kill people that don't necessarily want us there.

I feel for the people of Syria, but the fact of the matter is that it's not going to be good for us to lead the military action there. The American people don't want it and the people of the Middle East are pretty fed up with us. It's going to be a goddamn shit show and a win for the GOP when they start pointing out that Obama started more wars than their war criminal. Basically, it just reinforces the same shitty decisions that got us into this "downturn."

Jacques L' Autre > Jaaag Hartley 08/28/2013 at 16:21

2

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

pdthedeuce > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/28/2013 at 16:25

0

I guess the problem some Americans have with this is , if you're gonna let them duke it out , that has to include Israel , because they are square in the middle of it. If we're not picking sides , we can't help Israel either.

Anon > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/28/2013 at 16:28

0

Bro, you can't just go and glass a bunch of countries just because there are some idiots in them! For every stupid extremist there's a hundred normal people like you and me. So what? you want to kill millions of people who were unlucky enough to be born in one of the countries? Do you think they'll just stand by while we shoot nuclear missiles at them? Nothing is more dangerous than a man with nothing left to lose and I guarantee you that they have enough nuclear arms to tear the US a new asshole.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Jaaag Hartley 08/28/2013 at 16:28

1

There must be one question answered.

Is there a goal for a solution?

Will the victims be any better off for other countries to step in?

Is there anything to be gained, not necessarily by the west, but by the people that are being put forward as the victims?

We don't even know who the perpetrators of the gas attacks are, or if they were staged to look like gas attacks.

I would not put AlQ rebels past being agent provocateurs to gas the people they claim to be fighting FOR, in order to put it on AlPropazeera, to push the west into helping them turn the tide...

It is all but publicly official that the horror a year ago in Libya was likely connected to that, and likely running guns clandestinely to the M-Brotherhood, and AlQ, and the state department let people die alone to keep the coverup intact.

If we bomb Ass-ad off the map, and AlQ gets in instead, and gums it up like they/M-Brotherhood did in Egypt, and it just keeps getting worse... will anything positive have come from outside involvement?

I wanted to believe that Afghanistan and Iraq were for worthy causes. If they ever were, it has been exhausted, and the benefits seem to be diminished, and our soldiers have paid the price, some the ultimate price, and our grand-children will be paying the monetary bill.

If this drags us into war with Russia and Iran on Ass-ad's side, and the west on AlQ's side... without the consent and approval of the people who remember what AlQ did 12 years ago... it will be a gigantic mess... possibly escalating into a world war. Over Syria.

Is Syria's internal conflict horrible, absolutely.

Is it worth other people's blood and treasure, I remain unconvinced.

I think we have learned that blood and treasure can be potentially wasted for little effect in that region, and there have been enough brave soldiers lay down their lives for un-clear reasons and political back-room machinations.

Soldiers fight EVIL, they shouldn't be casually used for political cover.

And when two evils are destroying each other... let them. Be ready to receive the refugees... but don't get between two junk yard dog factions, fighting over a bone.

Jaaag Hartley > Brian, The Life of 08/28/2013 at 16:31

0

I'm nearly 20, during my life we (UK) have been involved in at least 6 major wars from the balkans to the middle east, even stopping over in africa. I understand how you feel, but from where I see it, morally we cannot stand idly by whilst a dictator is massacring his people when we can do something about it.

The US got involved secretly with the soviet war in Afghanistan, admittedly that was probably mostly because the enemy there was the USSR, but what they did was good morally and good for afghanistan. The problem is that the USA didnt follow it up, they beat the Russians and then left the Afghans to it. That is why the Taliban got into control and that is why the war in Afghanistan started and is only just coming to an end.

In my opinion if we do something in Syria, but do it well and not leave too early, then something very good can come of it.

ttyymmnn > Jaaag Hartley 08/28/2013 at 16:33

0

Attacking Syria has the potential to make things much, much worse. With Russia and China as Syria's staunchest allies, I don't see how we can avoid pissing them off if we start dropping cruise missiles on Damascus. There is evidence that the latest gas attack was a screw up at a lower level than the Syrian government. I think there is more investigation that needs to be done before we start shooting. I guess, though, that if we do start bombing a secular government, we might not piss off the Islamic radicals for a change. I wonder just how many radical Islamists are fighting for the Syrian rebels. Do we really want to help them take power in a country that shares a border with Syria? I just hope that the US government has really thought this through.

Anon > Jaaag Hartley 08/28/2013 at 16:35

0

Here's my idea. Bring in several elite groups of special ops and take down the top 20 people in the military. Once you break down the chain of command let the rebels do the rest.

Jaaag Hartley > Firewrx234 08/28/2013 at 16:37

1

In a way I think it is our place, we have a moral obligation to stop this atrocity from developing any further than it already has. I don't want to put our soldiers at risk but I don't like us standing around doing nothing as this happens. We got involved Libya when they were bombing innocent civilians. Why not Syria

desertdog5051 > Jaaag Hartley 08/28/2013 at 16:42

1

Too war weary to care anymore.

ttyymmnn > Jaaag Hartley 08/28/2013 at 16:43

0

There is a good Q&A round up of the current situation in today's NYTimes. If the Syrians haven't blocked the site.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/28/wor…

Jaaag Hartley > Anon 08/28/2013 at 16:45

0

too risky, I've thought of it myself, lets just get the SAS to go in, kill or capture the top guys and get out. but it leaves the ending too open. On the one hand a guy could come in and lead the country into a new prosperous and peaceful future, on the other it could become anarchy, or worse get infected by Al-Qaeda

Jaaag Hartley > ttyymmnn 08/28/2013 at 16:50

0

That is the problem we face, Russia and China need to come to there senses and see that by arming the Syrian government whilst they make money they are causing the deaths of countless civilians. But then Russia and China dont exactly have high human rights records so what the fuck do they care. Its dangerous, but its for the right reasons. If we went in I would be worried about the consequences, but I would still be happy with the decision

Anon > Jaaag Hartley 08/28/2013 at 16:52

1

Yeah, good point. Well there's a reason I'm not a general.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Anon 08/28/2013 at 17:00

0

I said it's draconian. And I also did not say "nuke" anywhere. Conventional weapons should suffice.

I don't actually want to do that. But, I would hope the threat of us leveling everything might be enough to get the normal citizens to finally take a stand against the idiots.

Also, I know basing our actions toward an entire country on only the idiots isn't very good policy. If that were the case no one would invite the US and/or Florida to anything. Ever.

However, so far with regards to the ME, we've only heard from the idiots because the normal people aren't allowed to speak for themselves.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Anon 08/28/2013 at 17:02

0

Israel does.

I'm not convinced any of the other ME states do. There are enough extreme idiots who would actually use them that if they had them, we would have seen the damage by now.

Jaaag Hartley > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/28/2013 at 17:03

0

The key point I took from this is "Soldiers fight EVIL"

Isn't a government that is murdering its people every day evil? Isn't a situation where families have to try and go about their daily business whilst the sound of bombs and gunfire keeps their children up at night evil? Isn't a country that, admittedly it isn't confirmed yet but it seems damn likely, uses chemical weapons to indiscriminately gas a community evil?

I don't want our soldiers to die. I don't want families here to worry if their son or daughter will die doing their job. I don't want us to pay the price of us going to war again. But I don't want Syria to pay the price of us not

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > pdthedeuce 08/28/2013 at 17:03

0

I did not exempt Israel.

They are fully capable of defending themselves. I'd support a more neutral stance with regards to them as part of our policy.

pdthedeuce > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/28/2013 at 17:08

0

oh , i'm not arguing with you , I just think maybe Israel is why we haven't bombed them back to the stone age already .

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > pdthedeuce 08/28/2013 at 17:12

0

I would go so far as to say that's the only reason.

While it would suck paying higher prices for gas, if we actually leveled their shit I'm sure we would just go in and build it back up with an "Under New Management" sign hanging on the gates.

pdthedeuce > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/28/2013 at 17:14

1

it wouldn't be the first time...