Jalop Commuter for $4,000-$5,000

"PilotMan" (Pilotman) 12/31/2013 at 11:23 • Filed to: None

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For $4,000 - $5,000 what are your suggestions? What would be an awesome car to drive to work every day with decent mileage, maybe 20-25 MPG? I wouldn't mind keeping it running with maintenance and repairs but it would need to start every morning. I have decent mechanical skills and don't mind working on a car when the parts are cheap. I'm looking for something Jalop but hopefully with working A/C.

Some of my own ideas, 90s two door Tahoe, 90s Integra, AWD Civic, nice Iroc-Z, Comp G Grand Prix, VUE, Pinto, Brat, 2-door Cherokee, Diesel Merc,

CalzoneGolem > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:26

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You could probably score a decent Mazda 3 for under 5.

KB Garage > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:29

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Had the two door Tahoe. Typical problems to watch for on ones with higher mileage: intake manifold gaskets, AC compressor, and trans depending on how it's been driven. Other than that, they're pretty solid.

Desu-San-Desu > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:30

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Ahem.

RacecaR > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:30

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AWD Civic

I know I'm not Jalop certified, or a big Honda person, but do what now?

And here is my not very Jalop suggestion, but how about a 1992–1996 Toyota Camry. Maybe grab a two door (I do believe they are the only ones that came with a manual). They aren't ugly, they aren't "grounded to the ground", are built well, and are good cars.

PilotMan > Desu-San-Desu 12/31/2013 at 11:33

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One like that for $5K?

ncasolowork2 > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:34

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Civic, but I wasn't aware of such a thing as an AWD Civic.

PilotMan > KB Garage 12/31/2013 at 11:35

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Were you able to pull off 20 mpg at 65 mph? The offroadability and everlasting 5.7L are attractive along with really cheap parts.

PilotMan > CalzoneGolem 12/31/2013 at 11:36

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I had a friend who had one and put a hole through a piston for no reason, how well would a Mazda 3 hold up past 100K miles?

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:38

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Focus Hatch, but not the SVT. The normal Focus is really very fun. The SVT suspension bolts right on.

The Zetec is a decent engine, but what you really want is the 2.3 Duratec. It's got more torque and responds to mods better.

pilaf > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:39

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R30 or R31 Skyline. This may require that you move to Japan.

I didnt say it was a perfect plan.

PilotMan > RacecaR 12/31/2013 at 11:39

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I can't go with a Toyota, I think I'm allergic or something.

Iheartmy365kHonda - Car enthusiasts do like FWD > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:40

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How about a 2000 ish Pontiac Grand Prix? They are fantastic daily drivers for under $5,000. Comfortable, run strong, and do not look too bad. A GTP may go for more (not sure) and you will loose MPG, but overall they are nice cars.

RacecaR > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:41

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Really? It's not a bad looking car, at least I don't think so.

PilotMan > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:42

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A Corvair would be fun to keep running and as a pilot I can appreciate that air cooled motor out back. The inevitable rust would scare me from driving too much in the snow.

http://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/9…

Luke's Dad Sold His 2000TL To Get a Sienna > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:45

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Post 2001 Acura 3.2TL Type-S

Not just me trying to make everyone love this car because it's pretty cool and I always wanted it. But it's cheap, the later ones solved the transmission problems from the 2000 ones.

Type-S came with a 260hp engine and wheels that would in the future go on the Accord. And I'm sure after yesterday that there's a CL Type-S owner on Oppo that would support this. :D

Oh and V-TEC kicks in.

Desu-San-Desu > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:45

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Well, let's see...you can get a nice-running NA for about $3k around here. Then $600 for a hard-top, about $400 for some nice Enkei wheels (Compe Classics or RPF1's), and then the remaining $1000 could be used on indicator intakes, shocks, and springs. The front lip, fenders, and spoiler could all come later, but aren't exactly necessary.

KB Garage > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:47

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Hahahahahahaha no. 12 at best. But that was my fault. The best I saw before the lift was 16.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:49

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Will do 20 MPG on the highway (can do 22-23 if you keep it below 70, 20 was on cruise control at 80), about 16-17 in the city.

Mine was incredibly reliable, incredibly easy to work on, and parts are cheap. Not the quickest car in the world, but bolt-on exhaust makes for one of the best-sounding cars made in the past decade or so.

Sold my 100k mile example for $5500 back in March.

Desu-San-Desu > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:49

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Toyota AW11 MR2.

Definitely can be found within your budget. Mid-engined, rear wheel drive, roomier inside than a Miata, plenty of upgrade potential, and Toyota reliability.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:50

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FWIW, I loved my '05 Mazda 3s hatch.

Light, fun to flog around town and got 25 mpg regardless of how I drove it.

Slow car fast!

Desu-San-Desu > ncasolowork2 12/31/2013 at 11:51

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Son, I am disappoint.

Desu-San-Desu > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 11:52

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You just haven't found the right Toyota yet. They made a lot of great sports cars in the past, including some definite sleepers, like the old Cressidas.

Desu-San-Desu > RacecaR 12/31/2013 at 11:52

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Ahem.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 12:00

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Probably the best commuter would be a diesel W124, but a G-body could work.

RacecaR > Desu-San-Desu 12/31/2013 at 12:07

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Ah crap, I forgot about those. My buddy even has a wagon and has talked about getting stuff from one of those to make his AWD. Sorry, I flaked.

Milky > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 12:08

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Well Miata is always the answer, but a SC300/400 could also be the answer.

They are super reliable (as long as you make sure to get one that has the timing chain all ready done), mine had 210k before I killed it. I even had the V8 and always got around 20-22 mpgs in it, wether it was highway or city driving. You can get any model you want for 5k, hell I got my beater for $1500 and drove it for 2 years.

Sinanigans > Desu-San-Desu 12/31/2013 at 12:12

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Seriously, this is the obvious answer...

crashonice > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 12:15

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I just picked up a Protege5 for around $3k to DD while the miata is buried in snow, and I'm very happy with it. They are a bit cheaper than the Mazda3, and IF you can find one for sale where you live, you can get ~100k examples well within your price range with money left over for a nice set of wheels or future maintenance costs. Mid 20s to low 30s mpg, great 5spd tranny, and very usable interior space.

(photo isn't mine)

JALOPNIK-IS-JEZEBEL-FOR-CARS > Milky 12/31/2013 at 12:22

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I came here to say this myself so, nice choice sir! And, one small clarification; Timing belt, right?

Anyways, I am looking to pick one up and always like to hear it is oppo approved.

PilotMan > Iheartmy365kHonda - Car enthusiasts do like FWD 12/31/2013 at 12:24

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I like Grand Prixs, I would really like to find a Comp G, The GXPs are great but I don't have small enough monkey hands to work on the transverse V8.

PilotMan > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 12/31/2013 at 12:25

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Are there generally affordable to repair and reliable?

PilotMan > crashonice 12/31/2013 at 12:26

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Plus Wagon.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 12:30

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Mine was very reliable (had from new for 7 years, sold to a friend who's had no major issues since). It was much more affordable to maintain than my current car (E90 M3) - ha!

http://www.edmunds.com/mazda/mazda3/2…

PilotMan > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 12/31/2013 at 12:32

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The Camaros of my past would haunt me.

Firewrx234 > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 12:37

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I've got a 99 GTP and i get 28 on the highway and about 17 in the city. Great car, so much so that I've owned 2!

Slow4o > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 12:46

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A 03 04 Focus SVT. I got mine for 5k but it is a pretty rare example so a little more pricey. Average 24mpg while commuting in Houston, which is pretty damn good. Just make sure you find out when the timing belt was last changed. You might have to look around some for an example that isn't riced out, but it had been a super solid DD for a year and a half, has a ton of space since it's a hatch, and fun as hell to auto x and rally x.

avens > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 12:52

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Want to make Jalops jealous (besides owning a S2000)?

PilotMan > Firewrx234 12/31/2013 at 12:53

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If I could find a clean GP I would probably be happy, it would be nice to have room for the kids in the back.

Did they ever come with a limited slip in the transaxle?

JEM > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 12:55

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You have a very good idea with the XJ Cherokee:

- You should be able to pick one up in good shape for around $4K. Just get one without rust. Rust is the big killer of these.

- I'd also suggest getting the 5 speed if you can find one, but the autos are pretty damn solid so no worries.

- Mileage with the 4.0L six (DO NOT GET THE 2.5 4 cyl.) should be 20-23 on the highway, assuming it's not lifted and it's tuned up right.

- Plenty of space to haul stuff, people, and the clearance and 4WD to always get in and out.

- For an SUV, it's very light (3400lb) and very nimble. Way more nimble on a highway than it has any right to be.

- Stupid reliable, the engine should go to 300,000 before needing a re-build.

- Parts are stupidly cheap. And available everywhere.

- You don't have to jack it up to crawl under it to fix something/do an oil change!

- Cold air intake, off-road cat, flowmaster exhaust and you'd swear you're driving a muscle car :-)

PS9 > Firewrx234 12/31/2013 at 12:58

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The last GP was a sign. Pontiac knew it had to clean up it's act with the body cladding and shit, and they were starting to listen.

Too bad it was about two decades too late by then...

PS9 > RacecaR 12/31/2013 at 12:59

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But-but-but- V6 Manual bulletproof DD...

Milky > JALOPNIK-IS-JEZEBEL-FOR-CARS 12/31/2013 at 13:10

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Ah crap, yea thats what I meant.

I do still miss that sound …. I NEED to do an exhaust to my current car. Just fyi if you do pick one up I'd do this to it, its what I did. Just take off the 2 mufflers and 2 resonators after the cat. You do get some drone on the highway, but my god its glorious.

PS9 > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 13:10

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I've lived with both. The Mustang won the sales wars because it was better at being a car. By that I mean, better visibility, better interior space, a useable trunk, waaay better ride quality, etc. The basic things you expect a car to do. The Shoebox Mustang was just better at them than the F-bodies ever cared to be.

That trend of style over function continues with the fifth gen, to my great displeasure. Though the Camaro today is a waaay better track car than it ever has been, and handily beats the mustang trim-for-trim in that specific regard.

NaturallyAspirated > JEM 12/31/2013 at 13:12

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I dunno about the mileage. My '96 XJ never got any better than about 18 MPG, even in immaculate tune and stock ride height, and in town it was more like 15 MPG.

NaturallyAspirated > crashonice 12/31/2013 at 13:13

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Wow, lucky guy. I couldn't find a Protege5 for less than $10k in my area, except for a few with salvage titles.

NaturallyAspirated > Iheartmy365kHonda - Car enthusiasts do like FWD 12/31/2013 at 13:15

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My younger brother DD's a 2004 GTP Comp G. Nice car overall, it's been very reliable. It gets surprisingly good fuel economy, too. It has a few issues with interior build quality that are endemic to GM cars of the era, but mechanically it seems very sound.

And the racket the supercharger makes is amazing.

Stef Schrader > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 13:21

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Oh yeah—NAs are cheap.

Alternately, there's the 944, but parts are less cheap. Still, attached roofs FTW.

PilotMan > avens 12/31/2013 at 13:31

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It looks like they are holding their values at $8-10,000.

Depressoiscool > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 12/31/2013 at 13:36

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Yes yes and yes. I bought a like brand new 08 3s with a manual and while it would be out of your budget, it would not be hard to find an older one with the same motor combo, it is too damn much fun to be my little economy car.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 13:45

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For best smiles per mile, make sure to get the "s" with the 2.3 liter, not the "i", with the 2.0.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Depressoiscool 12/31/2013 at 13:46

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I need to drive mine again (a friend owns it now) to see if it's still as good as I remember it...

crashonice > NaturallyAspirated 12/31/2013 at 13:47

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Ouch, $10k is ridiculous. I think my '02 only books for around $3200 with the 125k it has on it. Really fun car for that price, though, and with good maintenance they routinely go into the 200,000 mile range. That and I can lay the back seats flat and actually sleep in it, haha. Can't do that in a miata!

Iheartmy365kHonda - Car enthusiasts do like FWD > NaturallyAspirated 12/31/2013 at 13:47

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My brother, too, had a GTP. Great car, but when he kept upgrading the car to finally get 400 whp, the tranny went out.

merkyg > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 13:58

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Saab!

wkiernan > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 14:27

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Probably with your list of candidates you wouldn't be interested in a Miata, but when you say "commuter," well, let me put it like this. You know how you move around inside your house? that's like you city/suburban commuting to-and-from work in your car. Now you ever seen how a house cat moves around inside your house? that's you commuting through the city and suburbs in a Miata.

William Byrd > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 12/31/2013 at 14:32

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I just bought one of those via Oppo so I'm biased.

I have spent a little time in the new Camaro and am not a fan. It feels like a bunker in there and the ergonomics are "meh". It's good to have it back from the dead if for no other reason than to push Ford to keep making better Mustangs.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > PS9 12/31/2013 at 14:33

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Except the 5th gen Camaro looks way less sleek than the three previous generations (and the first one as well).

MtrRider Just Wants Doritos > PS9 12/31/2013 at 15:00

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The V6 Mustang beats the V6 Camaro and the Mustang GT beats the Camaro SS in every performance measure. The GT500 doesn't handle as good as the ZL1 but it is still faster around more tracks than it is slower than the ZL1.

Wacko > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 15:10

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Have fun finding one without rust

Wacko > crashonice 12/31/2013 at 15:18

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I had a 03 up too 2010, great handling car, I even got the 10 year anti rust done at the dealer, after a year or two, rust was everywhere, even under the anti rust coating. Also had a few electrical problems.
My first and last Mazda, bad dealer doesn't help.

Wacko > ncasolowork2 12/31/2013 at 15:21

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I so wanted one when I started driving in '95, now I finally drive something very close to it, a 2010 Suzuki sx4. Small awd manual and fun to drive.

NaturallyAspirated > Iheartmy365kHonda - Car enthusiasts do like FWD 12/31/2013 at 15:37

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My brother has heard enough stories about blown transmissions on modified GTPs that he's "making do" with a cone filter and catback.

NaturallyAspirated > Firewrx234 12/31/2013 at 15:40

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It's kind of embarrassing that my 4-cylinder Subaru wagon gets worse fuel economy than a supercharged pushrod v6.

Saracen > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 15:41

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Iheartmy365kHonda - Car enthusiasts do like FWD > NaturallyAspirated 12/31/2013 at 15:41

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haha my brother eventually did get it rebuilt and upgraded and traded it for a CTS-V later on.

feather-throttle-not-hair > PS9 12/31/2013 at 15:42

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I remember parking my 350Z next to a current gen Camaro. It's just way way way too big for my tastes. I like a lot of what they did, and it's a fine car in its own right, but a mustang, while bigger than my car isn't so much bigger that I can't take it seriously as a performance car. Unfortunately the Camaro crossed that line with it's latest redesign.

NaturallyAspirated > crashonice 12/31/2013 at 15:42

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I ended up with my Subaru Legacy wagon, but if I could have found a Protege5 for $3200 I would have been all over it. The Legacy is pretty fun to drive, but I've driven enough Mazdas to know that the Zoom-Zoom is actually a real thing.

feather-throttle-not-hair > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 15:46

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dont knock it till you try it. The nineties are long enough ago that being a ricer is kind of quaint rather than totally obnoxious.

I wasn't a fan growing up until i got in one and gave it a whorl. Light and tossable, easy to find the limits, sublime steering and shifter feel. They're very much a FWD miata analogue. With a bunch of space.

And obviously there are parts available to correct just about any deficiency you can think of save FWD.

PS9 > MtrRider Just Wants Doritos 12/31/2013 at 15:49

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Nope. The Fifth Gen Camaro Chassis is the superior track weapon. 1:22:7 vs. 1:25:7 at willow springs. They even visualized the gap between the cars in a chart, which is massive. Sorry, but more ponys will not make up for the short comings in the current mustang chassis. When it comes to corners, IRS + Magnetoshocks > more power.

Also, this is only true today. Previous generation ponycars (like the one's in the OPs price range?) were only good in a straight line. Ever since the LT1 days, GMs V8s have offered more power than Ford's have, with the appearence of the 3800 forcing fords hand with PI V8 in '99.

PS9 > feather-throttle-not-hair 12/31/2013 at 15:52

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The current Camaro is big in every way you don't want. More weight and a larger foot print, but less space inside and laughable trunk space for such a large car.

PilotMan > feather-throttle-not-hair 12/31/2013 at 15:59

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The challenge is finding one not beat to hell and riced out at a reasonable price.

PS9 > Goshen, formerly Darkcode 12/31/2013 at 16:07

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The Current camaro looks like a modern car. All the new pony cars do. The fourth gen looks like GM took the third gen and stuck it in a microwave, with mixed results. Trans am, especially post-99? yay. Camaro? Nay. If camaros are all that's left and they are go about as fast and make the same power, I'd take the fifth gen over all the others.

I'd still be irritated about that mailslot visibility though.

MtrRider Just Wants Doritos > PS9 12/31/2013 at 16:54

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The ZL1 is faster at Willow Springs but not everywhere. The GT500 beat it at Laguna Seca.

While I agree that the magneto shocks do wonders for the Camaros handling, remember when the 5th gen came out the Mustang killed it. And the GT500 and ZL1 are competitive on track with the GT500 winning some and the ZL1 winning some.

crashonice > NaturallyAspirated 12/31/2013 at 16:56

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Yep, the zoom-zoom is in fact a real thing. This is my third mazda, and if you can put up with the issues like rust and maintenance complexity, they are well worth the driving experience.

Vehicle brands must be opposite where you are - I was looking for a legacy wagon when I got my P5, but it was impossible to find anything comparable with less than a quarter-million miles for the same price. Even beat-up subies are priced through the roof here.

SpeedSix > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 17:03

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If you can find one, a late-model first-gen Saab 900 non-turbo (hatchback, sedan or convertible) should make a fine commuter.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > RacecaR 12/31/2013 at 17:06

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I can attest to this, albeit with a different Toyota specimen.

Sure, it may look like a fake Rolex watch in the Lexus/Luxury world, but it's a fake Rolex watch that will do everything you can ask for as a DD. It's also snow-friendly and bulletproof!

feather-throttle-not-hair > PilotMan 12/31/2013 at 18:01

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True, i guess it's getting hard to find the right one these days. Kind of hard to believe because they made so many of them.

Side note: I think the EG/EK civics will be future classics in the same way that the 60's mustangs are classics now. They wont be worth a TON of money thanks to their huge production numbers, but in 20 years we'll be just as nostalgic about the import tuner craze of the 90's as we are about the muscle car era now.

PS9 > MtrRider Just Wants Doritos 12/31/2013 at 19:09

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Your image got kinja'd. If you're refering to this , The victory is mitigated quite a bit by this paragraph;

Comparing their fastest flying laps in the hands of mph-maestro Randy Pobst, the two cars would have theoretically passed and repassed each other a dozen times before the checkered flag. And moreover, were the race stopped even shortly after the last turn — turn 11 — the Camaro would have been the victor. It took the GT500's thundering power down the last straight to turn the tables and settle the matter, ahead by 70 feet.

To be faster than the current gen camaro, the Mustang has to have a power advantage. Without that, The Camaro yields itself to be a better track car. Even with that advantage, it's a half-second photo finish that could go either way, not the decisive several-cars-ahead victory we get from the SS against the GT. Given equal ability, the Camaro is going to be non-trivially faster around the track. It's just a better chassis.

remember when the 5th gen came out the Mustang killed it.

What are you refering to here?

MtrRider Just Wants Doritos > PS9 12/31/2013 at 19:43

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This is the photo I tried to post

Link in case it doesn't work again

I agree that around corners the ZL1 beats the GT500. However, I think that's due to the mageto suspension and good tuning more than an inherently better chassis. The Zeta platform the Camaro is on is perfectly good for a sedan, but it's heavy and the irs is not that great as irs setups go. It is a heavy car and when the 5th gen came out, it showed. They have improved it greatly but the 2011 Mustang beat the crap out of it on the track. Still today, the V6 and base V8 Mustang is better than the Camaro equivalent.

But those are just numbers. On mountain back roads and the Buttonwillow road circuit, the dynamic distinction between the Camaro and the Mustang was akin to the difference between a fighting bull and a star matador. The Mustang felt much lighter than the heavy Chevy, quicker in transient responses, and much quicker out of corners, live rear-axle suspension notwithstanding

PS9 > MtrRider Just Wants Doritos 12/31/2013 at 20:53

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Your chart undermines your point; The GT500 only wins decisively in straight line tests. With 80 more HP, it better. Every test having to do with cornering sees the either the ZL1 on top, or the GT500 winning by a hair. If the Base GT can 'beat the crap out of'the SS', how come the 500 can't do any better than .5 sec more than the ZL1 when it wins? How can it lose at all? If the mustang is better in all cases without question - as you claim - how can the GT be several car lengths behind the SS at willow springs? "The Mustang is better in all cases without exception - except for these huge glaring exceptions." Makes no sense.

They're both heavy. Both cars approach ~4000lb in curb weight.

The Zeta platform is more than just good for a sedan, it's excellent for a coupe car. We know this because the Z/28 - even with nearly 800 lb or more over it's competitors - can beat an LFA (non 'ring edition), a Carrera S and a 458 Italia a round the most complicated track in the world. It stands among some of the best sports cars on earth in this regard. Excellent results don't come from substandard engineering, and there is no room for argument on this point.

"But those are just numbers." = We're done speaking objectively about the cars. This person is offering his opinion on which car feels better to drive. Nothing wrong with that, as this is what auto journo's are paid to do. But 'which car is best in all cases?' is not a question you can answer subjectively through exploration of someone's opinion. Only the numbers can give you an answer, and the ones you and I have presented suggest that the Mustang can only beat the Camaro when it has more power, and even then it's a narrow victory, and even then victory is not guaranteed to the Mustang, as it would be for any car that was objectively and unquestionably better than the car to which it is being compared. This is a much different picture than the one you paint of the mustang being the unquestioned and decisive victor in every single case no matter what.

MtrRider Just Wants Doritos > PS9 12/31/2013 at 21:29

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Read my comment if you want to talk to me. Since you rambled that nonsense post where you put words in my mouth, then made up some lies about the cars themselves, I'm done.

You didn't win, you just didn't read what I said.

PS9 > MtrRider Just Wants Doritos 01/01/2014 at 03:49

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Sorry you want to take it that way - these are just cars, not the personal merits of close friends we are arguing about - but, the numbers do not lie. It's not my fault that they render your position on the cars untenable.

I have not misrepresented your statements in any way.

The V6 Mustang beats the V6 Camaro and the Mustang GT beats the Camaro SS in every performance measure.

You were the one who typed this, correct? That wasn't some other MtrRider with an identical account, correct? The mustang, regardless of trim level, is a better performing car than the Camaro. This has been your position the entire thread.

remember when the 5th gen came out the Mustang killed it.

They have improved it greatly but the 2011 Mustang beat the crap out of it on the track.

Did someone else write these above statements? How are they not consistent with the original position you took in the thread? How does 'The Mustang is a better performing car, period' misrepresent these statements? Strawmen are easy to point out. Where in this thread have I used one against you in my arguments?

I have not misrepresented the cars in any way. I will point this out again; all the numbers in your chart give a clear victory to the GT5oo only in straight line tests. It's good at straightline speed because it has more power. It should be. But nearly all of the handling related testing goes to the ZL1. Do you see those red bars and the 'ZL1' inside of them? Better braking, Better Lateral Acceleration, Faster at the slalom, better skid pad results. All that stuff means it will be better coming into a corner and going out of one, and Mustang needs a track with a good long straight away to exercise it's power advantage over the camaro. Laguna has several of these.

A half-second victory is not decisive. A race that close can go either way, as they stated during the test. It says so right there in the article! I don't know why you find that so difficult to accept. A three second victory however cannot go either way. You are several car lengths behind at that point. That is where the GT finds itself against the SS, and that is not possible if the Mustang is a faster car regardless of trim level, period. That result is not consistent with the statements you have made this entire thread, and you don't get to pretend it didn't happen just because it's extremely inconvenient to your argument. I'm sorry if you find that hurtful somehow, but I will not allow that to dissolve my objectivity as you have.

If you want to walk away from the discussion, that is your choice. But your reacting as if I've insulted a family member of yours, and that is not at all close to what is happening here. We come to oppo to discuss the cars we love, but they are not people. They are not diminished by narrow victories or clear defeats, and by extension, neither are we.

Firewrx234 > PilotMan 01/01/2014 at 09:06

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No, not stock anyway. They are possible to get put on but not cheap.

JALOPNIK-IS-JEZEBEL-FOR-CARS > Milky 01/01/2014 at 14:27

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Oh man. I will do that for sure if I pick it up. Sexy!

911e46z06 > PilotMan 01/02/2014 at 02:11

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Tahoes are awesome. Just got a '97 recently, and I'm having tons of fun with it. That said, for a DD you should go e30.

lddk > PilotMan 01/05/2014 at 14:23

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Stumbled across your post...I commute in a well taken care of, high mileage E46 328i beemer and it is fantastic. Bought it with 168k on it for about $6500, and 3 years later it's at over 210k. All the typical BMW maintenance, which isn't bad, and very well documented online for the mechanically inclined home mechanic. Drives fantastic, of course, plenty of torque so even in traffic the 5spd isn't annoying, and averages 24 mpg while commuting. Highway trips it gets 30mpg. Comfortable, enough gadgets to be convenient, not enough to be completely unreliable. And I can put my kids in the back when necessary, or two adults if going to lunch. Fold the backseat down and I can fit my mountain bike with the front wheel off :-)

So...yeah the mileage is high, but I'm likely to just keep maintaining it and drive it until the wheels fall off. The kid I bought it from took such good care of it and fixed anything as it needed it, replaced suspension parts, etc, it looks like it has half the mileage and drives like it too. It's probably worth just under $5k, just because it's in good condition and has some Dinan parts. Also, the wife likes to drive it when I'm stuck with the kids and I get the family car. I'm not sure I could imagine a better DD, commuter, and all around fun car. It seems like I'd have a hard time selling it just because it would be worth way more to me than what I'd get for it.

Ian Duer (320b) > SpeedSix 01/05/2014 at 14:34

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I've got about 1000 mi into the son of that car. 5-door, manual 2.3 NA. The engine is responsive and matches revs easily. Makes for a pleasant day to day motoring experience. Nothing to write home about but very livable.

Ian Duer (320b) > PilotMan 01/05/2014 at 14:36

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I've been seeing e36 325 and 328 models with like 80k and good paint within that price range.

PilotMan > lddk 01/06/2014 at 08:36

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Thank you for the owner feedback, I'll take a look at the E46s as well.