He was clearly talking about GM

"El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!" (lightningzone) 12/29/2013 at 19:56 • Filed to: None

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Is GM still the dumbest?

SLR999 > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 12/29/2013 at 20:08

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Ford is doing good stuff, GM is doing good stuff, and Chrysler is doing good stuff.

For the first time in my lifetime Detroit is in a good spot relative to Japan and VW. Quite astounding.

Elmo's World! > SLR999 12/29/2013 at 20:18

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I wonder how much longer we'll really be distinguishing between Asian, American, and European car companies? Considering how international the companies are in terms of design and production these days...

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > SLR999 12/29/2013 at 20:32

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Well, the Japanese are not sleeping, that's for sure, nether are the Koreans, the battle will be interesting.

Too bad Mazda, lost Takashi Yamanouch(since this picture was made), as he was a rotary fan and the architect of the Mazda turnaround.

Masamichi Kogai, the new CEO, he has to win the trust of the enthusiasts, and just posing in a Miata is not gonna do it.

SLR999 > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 12/29/2013 at 20:56

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True, but Mazda is a small dog, not even the Chrysler of the Japanese.

Consider how Ghosn-era Nissan has had its share of flops and bad ideas:

Mitsubishi is stuck in the '90s and barely standing in the NA market:

Honda is working to alienate its core fanbase as fast as possible:

And Toyota, the closest thing to a turn around of the big Japanese, still could be more competitive on its core product:

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/29/2013 at 21:07

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As I just pointed out to someone else in another thread - toyota is still toyota. I think the fanboys humping the legs of the toyobaru twins over the curb weight number alone are letting toyota get away with shit engineering. The MkV GTI weighs 300 lbs more, yet posts identical numbers to a brand new FR-S.......and the MkVII comes out next year for a similar price as the FR-S. Yes the FR-S probably drives with a lot less understeer (I hope....) but come on! How is it with identical power output and a 300lb weight advantage the FR-S is only as good as a 7-year old golf? Oh and if you compare the automatic versions of both then it becomes a bloodbath in the old golf's favor. In the end - the FR-S is the beige version of the lightweight RWD sports car. I hope they improve the thing in a hurry because if nissan and chevrolet jump into the pool like they've been hinting at (and PLEASE don't just blindly diss the idea of going into a chevrolet or nissan dealership for such a car)then I can guarantee you their cars will either be proper performance pieces (nissan) or be much more reasonably priced for similar performance (chevrolet). This is all before we think about things like the ecoboost mustang possibly having a sub 3000lb curb weight (not likely, but could happen) or mazda making another RX car (again, not likely but if it does....).

SLR999 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/29/2013 at 21:44

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86/FR-S beige?

I buy cars for driving, not number competitions. And in that respect, the Toyota trounces any 4 seat, overpriced, FWD VAG product.

duurtlang > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/29/2013 at 21:53

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The Golf GTI mk7 has already been released in Europe. Weight difference with the FRS: the VW is less than 50 kg heavier. That's very little, especially considering the Golf being slightly wider, longer, taller and having a longer wheelbase. And, at least were I'm at, it's exactly as expensive (pre-tax), more luxurious, faster, has almost double the torque, more frugal and has nicer build quality.

I'm sure the Toyota is more fun to drive due to it being RWD, but from a cost perspective it makes little sense.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/29/2013 at 22:28

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You can get a GTI for the same price as an FR-S while also being faster. Driving enjoyment is subjective as my experience with one was a resounding "meh". So yeah, you might prefer the FR-S, but no, it is by no means cheaper than a GTI.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > duurtlang 12/29/2013 at 22:30

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Yep. I'd say that segment of a compact RWD sports car is ripe for someone to charge in and make an actual segment leader.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/29/2013 at 22:32

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Let me try and explain the "beige" part - it is a RWD sports car. It is also the blandest RWD sports car possible. It lacks power, lacks grip, lacks cheapness, and lacks handling out of the box for a retail price that is significantly more than rivals in the weight class above it in terms of performance.

SLR999 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/29/2013 at 23:07

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Lacking grip is a good thing:

Again, if you care about numbers more than a car makes you feel , well you've got some interesting priorities as a car fan.

SLR999 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/29/2013 at 23:11

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Again, no.

Cheapest FR-S in my corner of the earth is $26,5 whereas the MKVI GTI $29,4.

Plus VW 'reliability' (oxymoron).

V8Demon - Prefers Autos for drag racing. Fite me! > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/29/2013 at 23:17

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How is it with identical power output and a 300lb weight advantage the FR-S is only as good as a 7-year old golf?

Gearing, average power across an RPM range and not just the peak HP/torque #, final drive ratio, suspension geometry.....

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/29/2013 at 23:28

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Then you're in a shitty area. 25k or so after dealer fees for a Wolfsburg GTI with a 6-speed manual. Check the US VW website. In fact, your FR-S is also overpriced as the cheapest FR-S in my area is also about 25k after the dealer fees (base model, zero options).

VW reliability? Actually not as bad as I thought. My friend with a MkV GTI who has zero clue how to take care of cars only had one ECU issue at around 70k miles. It was some dirty sensors. He's been in three accidents and still no surprise damages have popped up as he recently crossed 100k. My own jetta has 200k miles with no significant repairs to report. Some pain in the ass repairs but with a socket set and a couple of bucks, everything has been fixed. Oh and plenty of aftermarket support for more power and handling and braking upgrades too.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/29/2013 at 23:30

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Any car can be fun, it depends on how you drive it. I too do not base my decisions on numbers alone. My old monte carlo was much more entertaining to drive than my friend's FR-S simply because it had a blatant disregard for its safety as well as my own. It was a real cone killer on the AutoX courses but I'll be damned if some of my favorite car memories weren;t formed in that car.

If you define only the FR-S as a fun car, then you have some interesting priorities as a car fan. Cars that are fun to drive existed well before the FR-S came along and there are plenty at the FR-S's price that exist today.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > V8Demon - Prefers Autos for drag racing. Fite me! 12/29/2013 at 23:35

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....I just lost a bunch of respect for the FR-S because of your mention of the suspension. I remember reading about how the 911 accelerates so much faster than the HP number should suggest because the rear weight bias helped put even more weight on the drive wheels. In a RWD car, under acceleration the weight is transferred to the drive wheels while in a FWD car the weight is transferred off of them. Yes the FWD cars typically have a more front heavy bias, but most like the GTI try to get it more neutral. I think the GTI is around 55/45 F/R. So in essence, the FR-S should see a benefit merely from being a RWD car if physics are to be believed.

V8Demon - Prefers Autos for drag racing. Fite me! > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/29/2013 at 23:40

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Good read on the subject.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/c…

Keep in mind that the Toyobaru cars are designed with the emphasis on turning.... Suspension-wise in this day and age it's easier to get a car to be somewhat good at everything, but still if you want it GREAT at one aspect you have to give compromise in another....

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > V8Demon - Prefers Autos for drag racing. Fite me! 12/29/2013 at 23:54

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I'm aware the toyobaru is a pile of wank in terms of numbers because of the tires more than anything else. They purposely used the eco low resistance tires so it would slide more. This hurt the acceleration and handling in terms of grip. It seems to handle quite well with some real rubber on it, but my issue comes from the fact that to get the true performance out of the FR-S, you HAVE to upgrade. But then again, almost every car that leaves a dealer lot could stand for some new tires. Hell, a camry with a tire upgrade might be able to go toe to toe with an FR-S in stock rubber around a short course. I've seem osme pretty crappy metal stand up to SRT-4s, Cobalt SSes, 3-series, Mustangs, and more simply because they had a sticky tire. And let's not forget that MSRP of bone stock at 25k which is in the same realm as other RWD cars, albeit heavier ones, that also produce more pwoer so you can get your slide on even if you have stickier tires......Tires that if you put on the FR-S you then sacrifice the slides because it makes no power. But wait! They make turbo kits and other power adders for it in the aftermarket! And they also do the same for every other hot hatch and pony car!

I just don't understand, even after driving one, why people rave like this car is so great and to me that sends a dangerous message. This praise combined with the hate spewed towards cars that might compete against it tell automakers - The FR-S is what we want! Nothing else! It is perfect! Go away! When in reality it could stand for some more power and a better tire and some suspension tweaks and either a useable back seat or no back seat at all with some "tire holder" slots instead to save even more weight. I'll leave out my comments on the shifter because I'm apparently weird and enjoy a bit of throw and weight in my shifts.

It isn;t a bad car, but it is dangerous to ignore faults as that's how we end up with shit products to buy. Being critical is different from saying "_____ is bad".

V8Demon - Prefers Autos for drag racing. Fite me! > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/30/2013 at 01:09

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This praise combined with the hate spewed towards cars that might compete against it tell automakers - The FR-S is what we want! Nothing else! It is perfect! Go away! When in reality it could stand for some more power and a better tire and some suspension tweaks and either a useable back seat or no back seat at all with some "tire holder" slots instead to save even more weight

Well put. I've never been behind the wheel of one so I have no basis to compare it to. I was simply answering the question you put forth. HP has always been a selling point and an ever enlarged benchmark. Many people often neglect the other components of performance.

"How did I lose? I have 50 more HP!" Yeah, but your vehicle weighs 1200 pounds more......

This all being said I do like the look of the Toyobaru.....

SLR999 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/30/2013 at 01:16

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I drive a Mustang, but I can admit the Scion is fun. It shouldn't be hard to see why a revvy, slippery car is fun. You don't need to justify your Jetta to me, I just personally find FWD Veedubs bland.

SLR999 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/30/2013 at 01:18

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Usually VW owners resort to anecdotal reports, but 1 in 52 (or 1 in 27 for Audis) doesn't lie .

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/30/2013 at 01:24

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I don't doubt that they can go wrong, but I think they are like any car - ignoring maintenance will result in a broken car. The japanese cars are less complex overall but my time as a maintenance tech (glorified oil/brake changer) has shown me that while a toyota/honda.nissan might have a higher tolerance for ignorance of cars, there is nothing inherently wrong with a VW or Audi from a reliability standpoint.

BUT! May your deity have mercy on your soul if you have a VR6 VW and think it will be cheap to own. That is a very big, complicated engine in a very tight engine bay. Moral of the story - get the 4-bangers. Japanese, German, even American, human kind as a whole has figured out how to bolt together four cylinders in a line with a fair amount of reliability.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > V8Demon - Prefers Autos for drag racing. Fite me! 12/30/2013 at 01:25

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Looks are subjective and I don;t mind the toyobaru's, but some people think the honda crosstour looks good so I've learned to never say that simply because a car is ugly it isn't good.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/30/2013 at 01:28

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I find my own jetta bland. It's good on gas though and dirt cheap to own so the golden rule of cheap cars applies to it - "It runs and drives so shut the fuck up and enjoy it". The monte carlo that I mentioned was much more fun because you were never quite sure what was going to happen on a given run. Some runs it would understeer wildly, others it would indulge in throttle off oversteer, and others still it would do an imitation of a RWD car and let me do some semi-elegant slides.

SLR999 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/30/2013 at 01:43

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Even so, when your failure rate is double Jaguar , you have a problem. A big one.

SLR999 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/30/2013 at 01:52

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When you said Monte Carlo, my first assumption was RWD, not those nineties abominations. My condolences.

I can see why you might see why you might find the FRS boring then. It's not what you're used to (FF), and it's not what you're looking for (more power).

From my perspective, the Mustang is as far as I want to go on the unpredictable scale, whereas the Scion offers some more controllability without losing raucousness. Except on the highway.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/30/2013 at 01:54

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VAG uses a lot of forced induction, jaguar does not. I don't know what they classify as "engine failure" but if you assume your car is magically going to work under all circumstances because it runs on pixies and dreams then I'm not surprised that a car people know to look out for (jaguar) with more simplistic designs has fewer "failures" than a car people assume will be trouble free while having a more complicated engine (Audi/VW).

Not at all saying they are bulletproof, but consider that VAG uses a ton of turbocharged and supercharged engines in almost all of its models. The NA V6 is the notoriously tricky VR6 design which I hate. A PITA to work on, a nightmare to service, and poor gas mileage. Meanwhile the bread and butter mill for VAG was the 1.8t in the early 2000s and it is now the 2.0t for everything from the golf and jetta to the tiguan and A4/6. Honda, toyota, nissan, even subaru kept their bread and butter engines NA for now, with perhaps ome direct injection or tech upgrades here and there, but overall they followed a KISS philosophy and it helps when you assume the average customer will be an idiot and not follow the service intervals. My boss being one of those idiots - he had electrical and engine faults galore on his accord which has 30k miles on it. But this is not honda's fault - he merely went almost 10k on a single non-synthetic oil change while also driving through tons of salt and mud as a salesman. Turns out that causes a few issues with an engine. Meanwhile everyone else who follows the service intervals is doing just fine. His engine was salvaged but I doubt it would be that way if he had a turbo motor.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/30/2013 at 02:01

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.....Actually the FR-S has a TON more power than my MC. Like probably 50 more hp despite a 1.1L and two cylinder deficit. But you;re missing the point. It isn;t the drive wheels or the power or anything. It isn;t even the feel as the MC had NONE. Seriously, I had no clue what was going on up front. But it was a car with four wheels and an engine. I could have fun with it. Lots of fun. Ridiculous, stupid levels of fun. I can have that in just about any car. But if I call on a car to buckle down and scorch some laps at a track or to suck it up and haul cargo or people.....the FR-S falls short. It compromises some of its sportiness to have a back seat that is barely useable by humans of unnaturally short stature. It also rolls of the lot with slippery rubber to do the fun slides around parking lots. So already, we have a car that is neither as fast nor as practical as other cars for the same price. It can be as fast, but again given the same budget, I could probably make those other cars just as fast or faster.

SLR999 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/30/2013 at 03:32

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Huh? JLR uses 3.0 V6s, 5.0 V8s, 2.0 I4s and diesel equivalents.

The petrol V's have superchargers available, and their diesels and I4s are exclusively FI.

They have advanced tech, but it doesn't matter, they work . You can have almost half of all VW errors be non-fatal and JLR's be entirely fatal, and VW will still have more errors. And that's not likely.

If you don't appreciate a car because it comes with intentionally drift-capable tires, change them. Don't judge a sports car for being a 'failure' because it's got a back seat. (Consequently are the 911 and M4 failures?). And if you judge the Toyota's lack of steering feel, how do you feel about the MKVII's EPAS unit?

Do you see the logical jumps you're going through here?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/30/2013 at 03:46

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The JLR volume models aren't forced induction while the VAG volume engines are, if you bothered to read what I wrote. But I'm dropping the engine arguments because from my experience those failures are usually the result of owner negligence but whatever - YMMV on all engines.

Read what I said about the FR-S more carefully. I'm aware I can change the tires on the FR-S but then again, I can do the same on any car and improve it immensely. And no, I do not judge a sporty car as a failure for having a back seat. Far from it, I love performance sedans and hot hatches for street cars as you can do the normal car duties while also having a ton of fun. But the FR-S does not really have a back seat. The seat itself is the failure. They obviously built it to support a person's weight but why? You really can;t fit anyone back there and I actually felt a bit cramped for leg room even with the seat all the way back. So it not only can;t fit anyone, it cuts in on legroom too. The 911 seats aren;t the best, but they can at least fit people back there. You can call it a GT or 2+2 with a straight face. That was why I dinged the FR-S on its seats. It made weight and size compromises to have a back seat meant to hold people.....which it can't do. If it was just a cargo or tire storage area, I'd look at it differently. It would probably be a bit lighter and show more focus on what it wants to do. If it wants to be a no compromise fun to drive sports car like the miata, then it should've ditched the rear seat. If it wanted to be a 2+2 then it should've given the rear seats an extra inch or two of leg room.

I never said the FR-S lacked steering feel. The FR-S was very easy to tell where the wheels were and what direction they were pointed in. I wish I was on a track to push it harder but it didn't feel special . The monte carlo did lack steering feel. The monte had zero feel. It was still fun despite that. So guess what? The electronic steering the MkVII has? I bet I'd still have a ton of fun with it. I had tons of fun in a mazda 3 and a MkV GTI as well as a V6 stang. Oh and a fiero. That thing was barrels of fun in a fiberglass doorstop. Shame I didn't fit well in it though.

I'm making zero logical jumps, you're failing to read.

SLR999 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/30/2013 at 04:00

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"The JLR volume models aren't forced induction"

Citation needed. Most popular JLR products in the UK (where the survey was done) are FI diesels. VAG products in the UK are FI diesels. Both are competing on the same turf. Jag won.

The rear seats on the Abarth 500, G35/7, 911, and S5 don't fit me. M3/4 and Mustang reluctantly. All of those are 'no-compromise' sports cars. That's not a valid criteria.

I agree I misread the steering feel comment.

If the 86 isn't special enough, go down a gear next time.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/30/2013 at 12:21

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The 500, G-coupe, 911, S5, M-cars, and pony cars are very far from "no compromise". The 911, G-coupe, S5, and M4 are GT luxury cars. They purposely soften the suspension more than they can to achieve a very nice ride over very long distances. They also have hundreds of pounds of sound deadening and features such as a premium sound system and advanced climate control and power adjusting seats. The rear seats are meant for your kids, not necessarily adults. The 500 is a city car turned into a hot hatch. It is nowhere near "no compromise" as it is meant to be a city/back road hot hatch econobox. It has a trunk which can carry lots of things and again, a rear seat meant for kids or small adults. It gets okay fuel economy when you factor in its size but it is also built to a budget. The mustang and the other pony cars are meant to be used everyday so a lot of compromises were done there too. Again, softer suspension, extra sound deadening, extra features, softer ride, gentler steering, etc....The FR-S, in my eyes, has a similar philosophy to the miata - It is a sports car that you can start up every day. No, it will not be your family sedan, it will not be your winter beater, it will not be your grocery getter, it will not be your road trip car, it is your sports car and that's it. The FR-S felt well put together like one would expect from toyota. Ditto the miatas I've been in. I would trust both in my garage to start up the first time, every time. You could drive one to work every day in the summer with a straight face due to that reliability. But good build quality does not make them "practical" like the compromises the other cars make. It's a mid to high 20s two seater that has a rear seat that can't be used because of......reasons? I guess they wanted a 911 "you can put a kid back there" vibe but if you're a taller driver like me then hopefully your kid has no legs because I was practically against the rear seat when I got it into my position. The 911 at least gives you a few inches.

SLR999 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/30/2013 at 12:40

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It's for child seats. You can't put a child seat on a parcel shelf, it must be on a 'real' seat, even if it has less room.

So the age range is a little less than the 911 (0-5 vs. 0-12).

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SLR999 12/30/2013 at 12:52

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The age range is a little less than a 911 and also assumes either both parents are short or only one will be up front at a time. It's been a while since my little brother was in a car seat but from what I remember, the seat jutted forward a couple of inches and this was a couple of inches above the seat. If such a seat was placed behind me in the FR-S, I'd have to get into a pretty uncomfortable position to not hit it.