A Lesson in Stance: Stance can be Functional

"LeadfootYT" (leadfootyt) 12/22/2013 at 10:19 • Filed to: None

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This is a stanced Subaru. Note the lack of excessive camber, the lack of tucked wheel lip, and the amount of travel before the wheels hit the body. "Stanced" does not mean "slammed." Thank you.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 10:24

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It still looks like something's broken.

Skif6996 > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 10:28

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Did you mean to say "note the lack of..."?

davedave1111 > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 10:32

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I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. The car in your picture has clearly been slammed: it has no suspension travel, too much camber, grounded-to-the-ground - in other words, has been ruined as a driver's car.

If styling a car like this is your thing, go for it. I just don't understand the threadbare pretence that it's not ruining the ride and handling.

LeadfootYT > davedave1111 12/22/2013 at 10:34

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Hmm. Kinja appears to have distorted the picture. Here's the full link . You can more easily see how much travel there is.

Question: Is this car stanced ?

KnowsAboutCars > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 10:35

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Excessive camber has functional roots as drifters use it to increase front grip.

LeadfootYT > Skif6996 12/22/2013 at 10:37

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I think Kinja's distorting the picture. Full link here . There is clearly about 2.5-3.5 inches of travel in the suspension, and WTCC cars have more camber than that.

LeadfootYT > KnowsAboutCars 12/22/2013 at 10:39

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That's true. And there is a balance among racers as to the optimal amount of all-around camber. But Oppo is like American politics: if you give in and acknowledge that compromise is needed, you lose.

DollaMoneyAve > davedave1111 12/22/2013 at 10:40

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There's clearly some suspension travel there, with several centimeters separating the tires and those massive arches in both the front and rear. There's no excessive negative camber either. IMO, this car is not "stanced." It has a a reworked, performance oriented suspension. The rest of the mods are very tasteful, too. Nice car.

davedave1111 > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 10:42

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The first pic looks much the same to me. Second pic has been Kinja'd.

I have to say, I'm not clear if the car's actually been lowered or if it's just arch-extensions and side-skirts making it look that way.

DollaMoneyAve > KnowsAboutCars 12/22/2013 at 10:43

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True, but drifters run purpose built competition machines, so everything is in excess

Skif6996 > Skif6996 12/22/2013 at 10:45

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Yeah, I think you misunderstood my response. That car doesnt seem to have excessive camber or a wheel stuffed under the arch. That's why i was askin if you meant to say, "Note the lack of excessive camber, the lack of tucked wheel lip, and the amount of travel before the wheels hit the body." As in, "This car is "stanced" and look it isnt absurd. It doesnt have all that camber or lack of suspension."

Orange Exige > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 10:50

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I like it.

I was just having a friendly argument with somebody else on #oppo a few days ago about stance because I don't feel like cars like this fall under "stance".

But ultimately, its vague car subculture categorization hardly matters. This is a very tastefully and aggressively (and functionally) modded WRX and it looks damn good, regardless of whether some would call it stance.

davedave1111 > DollaMoneyAve 12/22/2013 at 10:51

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"There's clearly some suspension travel there, with several centimeters separating the tires and those massive arches"

Centimetres? Not sure what you're looking at to come up with that. The tyres are almost touching the wheelarches. You couldn't get a hand in flat, let alone sideways - and several centimetres of gap is enough to get your hand in sideways, no trouble. Even stock, it didn't have several centimetres of gap.

In fact, there's barely a few centimetres to the non-flared bit of bodywork.

To me, it looks like any more than an inch - couple of centimetres - of travel would see tyre-bodywork contact. But I'm no expert, so tell me if I've missed something.

" IMO, this car is not "stanced.""

To be fair, no-one seems to agree on what actually constitutes stance...

"It has a a reworked, performance oriented suspension. "

That's the bit that I don't get, in general. So many 'stanced' (or not stanced, in this case, if you prefer) are cars which had great handling to start with. Those Scoobies are renowned for great handling. The idea you can improve on the tens of millions of dollars of research the original manufacturer did with great success seems odd to me. It's not impossible, but it's going to be very difficult.

KnowsAboutCars > DollaMoneyAve 12/22/2013 at 10:57

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But most drifters don't have separate track and street cars and they are certainly not as throughout build as the d1gp machines.

Textured Soy Protein > davedave1111 12/22/2013 at 11:06

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Completely disregarding the term "stanced" for a moment...

Just because car manufacturers spend lots of time dialing in suspension settings, doesn't mean those settings can't be improved upon. Factory suspension setups are a compromise between handling, ride quality, ground clearance, government regulations, and cost. Many cars' handling can be improved with aftermarket modifications, and often, yes, this involves some lowering and additional negative camber.

I've had multiple cars that I lowered and dialed in more negative camber (among other modifications). They handled better after the changes. They rode worse and required more care getting out of driveways. It's a tradeoff.

That said, I hate the stretched tire, too-low, too much negative camber, "stanced" look. But that doesn't mean the factory suspension setup is the be-all, end-all for suspension and that you can't improve upon it.

Jayhawk Jake > Orange Exige 12/22/2013 at 11:08

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That's my thought. 'Stance' has somewhat morphed into referring to cars that are extremely low and often with aggressive camber or tire stretch.

His is probably considered stances by the owner, and probably does fall under the general term, but it's really just lowered. That's okay.

Textured Soy Protein > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 11:11

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1. "Stanced" is stupid.

2. This car is not stanced.

If a car has tires mounted on wheels that are within the tires' recommended width range, the wheels and tires clear the fenders, and generally the amount of lowering and negative camber hasn't passed the point of those things improving the handling, then the car isn't stanced.

Personally, I'd take the above car, put the same tires on wheels that are half an inch narrower with a little higher total offset, dial out a bit of negative camber (maybe a degree at the most—whatever clears the fenders) and be done.

But this car, to me, doesn't embody the truly negative things associated with the "stance" trend.

Casper > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 11:14

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You have an odd definition of functional. Do you mean it is massively inefficient, but still able to be driven? That car has such a tiny amount of suspension travel that on just about any imperfect surface you are going to be having traction issues pushing it hard and feel like you are being beaten by 2x4's while driving on regular streets.

All I see is still a massive decrease in functionality... they just maintained the contact patch better than crazy camber cars.

Casper > KnowsAboutCars 12/22/2013 at 11:17

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That's the difference between a race car and a street car... and you will be extremely hard pressed to find someone running that much camber even in drifting.

This is closer to camber you would run for most actual performance gains. The car in your pic is hard parking far more than looking for any gains. You can also tell by the stupid stretch on the tire.

DollaMoneyAve > KnowsAboutCars 12/22/2013 at 11:19

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You're certainly correct, I had just thought you meant professionals when you used the term drifters; also, the car pictures appears to be competition spec. People DD a car tuned for hooning probably wouldn't use that much neg. camber

LeadfootYT > Skif6996 12/22/2013 at 11:21

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Oh haha. Wow I need sleep...

davedave1111 > Textured Soy Protein 12/22/2013 at 11:40

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I did say it's not impossible, but it ought to be very difficult. I was talking about cars that have great handling to start with, though. Obviously it's much easier to improve the handling of a car like a Civic or whatever where the manufacturer didn't make handling a priority. It's still easy to mess it up, though.

Talking specifically about this Scooby, I don't get it at all. If you want a more hardcore Scooby with worse ride and (slightly) better handling, it's called a Mitsubishi Evo. On top of that, thanks to all the electronics, it must be one of the most difficult cars to modify well; I can't see anyone doing the job right without millions of dollars of equipment and research. It would be all too easy to make both the ride and the handling worse.

Textured Soy Protein > davedave1111 12/22/2013 at 12:07

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It's not very difficult to improve upon an already good-handling car. Both of the cars I'm talking about had "great" handling to start with: an NB Miata with the sport package, and a Mazdaspeed 6.

Stiffer/lower springs, shocks with better damping, thicker sway bars, camber kits, etc. aren't exactly rocket surgery. The companies that make these parts do a fair amount of their own research and development. All you have to do is pick and choose the combo of aftermarket parts that meets what you're trying to accomplish with the car. There's a whole market of people who buy aftermarket suspension parts for the express purpose of improving a car's handling, NOT because of a particular look they're trying to achieve. Do you really think these car owners, and the companies that make the parts they buy, are all deluding themselves?

Let's talk about just my MS6 for a moment. From the factory, it sits HIGHER than the regular 1st-gen Mazda 6, because Mazda wanted to make sure the awd driveline components had enough ground clearance. But the front end in particular has absolutely 0 negative camber, and this hurts front end grip. I added wheels & tires that were the same diameter as stock but an inch wider, AutoExe lowering springs which brought the car down maybe a little over an inch, and had stiffer spring rates. I added camber kits to the front of the car to get the right amount of camber dialed in—maybe -1.25 degree in front and like -1.75 degree in back (can't remember off the top of my head).

Just with those couple of changes, it was a HUGE improvement in the car's handling. It didn't have a particularly stiffer ride, it still cleared most driveways fine, the wheels didn't look ridiculously tilted. While it didn't have as much ground clearance as Mazda felt was necessary, it handled way better.

Really, does this look "stanced"?

davedave1111 > Textured Soy Protein 12/22/2013 at 12:49

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"Both of the cars I'm talking about had "great" handling to start with: an NB Miata with the sport package, and a Mazdaspeed 6."

No, neither is a great-handling car. That's not what they're built to do. Both are very much compromised in that regard to give everyday usability*. Compare the MX-5 to an Elise, or even a BAC Mono.

(*Which is a good thing, generally, not a criticism.)

"Stiffer/lower springs, shocks with better damping, thicker sway bars, camber kits, etc. aren't exactly rocket surgery."

Actually, rocket science is an excellent analogy. The basic principles are very simple, but in practice it's very, very complicated to get right. Same goes for suspension. Stiffer is not necessarily better, for example - or, even worse, can be better up to a point, then become a detriment.

" I added wheels & tires that were the same diameter as stock but an inch wider"

And did you calculate, for example, the knock-on effects of the increased moment resulting from the wider wheels? How does it affect, say, mid-corner bump control? What's the best toe angle to use now? Did you factor the change into the camber adjustment?

Even what seems like a very small change will have effects on the whole suspension, and without extensive calculation and testing it's hard to know if something is a genuine improvement or a setup that's badly flawed in a non-obvious way. It's all very well having better handling under ordinary circumstances, but you don't want to find out that the car now doesn't handle right over mid-corner bumps or something.

That you were able to improve the handling of your Mazdas seems reasonable enough, particularly given the mods you made, because, as we agree, they weren't built solely for that to start with - but even so, without proper objective measurement it's hard to say whether what you did was a genuine improvement, or placebo, or a setup with a fatal but non-obvious flaw.

Textured Soy Protein > davedave1111 12/22/2013 at 13:44

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You used a Subaru WRX as an example of a "great" handling car from the factory, that shouldn't be "ruined" with aftermarket suspension modifications.

Having driven plenty of those over the years, they're not any better handling of a car from the factory than the cars I used as examples of cars that showed a demonstrable improvement in handling after modifying their suspension.

Have you ever driven a decently modified car back to back with a stock example of the same car? Have you even driven any of the cars you're talking about? Because it sure sounds like you're talking in pointless generalities with no practical hands-on experience with the point you're trying to make.

But you've read about a BAC Mono on the internet, so you're clearly an authority.

Milky > Textured Soy Protein 12/22/2013 at 14:26

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He used that car to show there is good stance. Also your whole first paragraph is kind of just wrong … or you need to throw a 'IMO' in there.

https://www.facebook.com/StanceNation

Milky > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 14:28

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I like stance, and people on Oppo need to shut the hell up about it all ready. No one is 'ruining' your car, so pull your dick out of the blender and acknowledge that people have different tastes.

Thats kind of, you know, what makes us people.

EDIT: Shared to Oppo, somehow it got big and looks like crap.

Textured Soy Protein > Milky 12/22/2013 at 14:39

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Well fine, IMO, as someone who dislikes the stretched tires tucked into fenders look, because unless you're doing mad tyte d0rift0 y0, it doesn't help handling, "stance" is my shorthand for that bullshit.

So to reuse my paragraph, the WRX posted above has tires mounted on wheels that appear to be within the tires' recommended width range, the wheels and tires clear the fenders, and generally the amount of lowering and negative camber hasn't passed the point of those things improving the handling.

The Silvia you posted, OTOH, commits all the offenses I mentioned. Well, not the camber. Needs MOAR negative camber y0!

So. IMO, that car needs narrower wheels with a higher offset.

Textured Soy Protein > Milky 12/22/2013 at 14:41

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But this is the internet, where the veil of anonymity lets us feel entitled to pass judgement on other people's taste as shitty.

Nyah nyah nyah.

Jayhawk Jake > Milky 12/22/2013 at 14:43

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People have just as much right to hate on stance as you do to like it.

Who cares, they are cars. People have opinions about them. Oppo users share those opinions on Oppo.

Übel > Milky 12/22/2013 at 14:45

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You can have your stance, and I can go over speed bumps and potholes. It all works out.

Lets Just Drive > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 14:49

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Nor does "slammed" mean...

A person can tastefully adjust the ride stance of their vehicle. This is not "stanced" in much the same way that this is not "slammed".

This is the difference between putting a lift on a truck and bro-lifting a garage queen.

Reigntastic > Milky 12/22/2013 at 14:49

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Shouldn't generalize, I have no problem with tastefully stanced cars. I will agree, stanced and slammed are two different things.

I still have stock wheels on my car, because I like (read: have to) spend money on my engine instead. When I do eventually get a set, they will be slightly cambered and I'll lower the car.

1337HPMustang > Milky 12/22/2013 at 14:51

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stamce is ghey... we need to start raising our cars to humongous heights

oldirtybootz > Milky 12/22/2013 at 14:51

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So the whole of Jalopnik and Opposite Lock should stop the Prius hate too.

Milky > Jayhawk Jake 12/22/2013 at 14:51

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This is true, but there is a difference between someone disliking a Chevy Sonic, and someone saying 'OMFG Sonics are the worst cars ever'.

You can still respect one of the two people, the other? not so much.

Milky > Reigntastic 12/22/2013 at 14:52

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Well I for one look forward to seeing it.

Milky > 1337HPMustang 12/22/2013 at 14:53

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Doing anything for the sake of rallying is not 'unnecessary'.

Also, donks.

Milky > oldirtybootz 12/22/2013 at 14:56

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Stop the hate, keep the dislike. There is a difference between saying 'I don't like this car for x reason' and 'OMFG this is the worst'. Wether we're talking about a Prius, stanced cars, or donks.

Milky > Übel 12/22/2013 at 14:57

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E30Joe drives a Subaru > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 14:58

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Functional stance because drift crew:

1337HPMustang > Milky 12/22/2013 at 15:00

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haha I edited it now you look dumb

RMudkips > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 15:01

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Y'know, for racing.

I like stance too; just not the excessive crap you mentioned. If the suspension is truly improved for handling (as the Subaru appears to be), then it's awesome.

I leave with some lowered bricks.

Some of these are actually for the sake of racing, but most seem to embody better handling. The one at the end especially.

oldirtybootz > Milky 12/22/2013 at 15:03

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I think I speak for many of us when I say I don't like stance because I think most of them look like ass and most are far less driveable. That Civic is from my town and it sounds like it's falling apart just driving through parking lots. But you're right, it's not MY car being ruined so I shouldn't care that much.

Milky > 1337HPMustang 12/22/2013 at 15:04

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I lol'd, but I think I found your street car.

Jayhawk Jake > Milky 12/22/2013 at 15:07

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Fair point

Reigntastic > Milky 12/22/2013 at 15:07

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Thank you. I'm torn on what color wheels I should get though. I like silver, but it's kind of plain, I also like bronze, but I'm very tempted to get white wheels.

Milky > oldirtybootz 12/22/2013 at 15:10

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Personally I like them aesthetically, and its not my car being scraped to bits. But even with Donks, a car type I don't like, I still understand its a culture thing and I do like thats its people being excited about cars. Also I think another benefit of stance is that its a younger thing, and you always see jalop articles about how kids aren't in to cars anymore.

I probably sound like the oldest 24 year old right there.

Milky > Reigntastic 12/22/2013 at 15:14

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Well if you're asking me, you're going to get a biased answer. I love white wheels, I painted 3 sets of wheels white on this Lexus beater I had a little while ago.

New car doesn't lend itself to painted wheels, but I will go white again someday.

1337HPMustang > Milky 12/22/2013 at 15:24

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and I yours

oldirtybootz > Milky 12/22/2013 at 15:25

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Well I'm 22 and taking the "get off my lawn" approach over here. I don't mind mild negative camber, the Subie up top and the Silvia you posted look perfectly fine. I prefer as little negative camber as possible if a vehicle ia going to be lowered, but it's the extreme camber that really irks me, like that Civic.

But my Dart won't be lowered so I don't have to worry about that. Any lower in the front and I'd be scraping on every hill in my town.

Reigntastic > Milky 12/22/2013 at 15:32

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How often did you find yourself having to wash them?

anonsagainstanonymous > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 15:35

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That subaru looks sweet. Not at all what enters my mind when someone says "stanced"

This abomination is what I think of when I hear "stanced"

Milky > oldirtybootz 12/22/2013 at 16:15

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I know that feel, I live in Detroit … they haven't had money to fix roads since the 70's. I like stance, but I'm not going any lower.

Milky > 1337HPMustang 12/22/2013 at 16:17

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Ha, well played sir.

Milky > Reigntastic 12/22/2013 at 16:29

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Walked outside with a bottle of windex and some paper towels about once every 2 weeks or so. But I gladly put up with it.

Manuél Ferrari > LeadfootYT 12/22/2013 at 16:56

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How do you vote for a post to get to FP?

This stance discussion should make it to a wider audience. There are some interesting comments here.

Stef Schrader > LeadfootYT 12/23/2013 at 03:42

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OP *technically* has a point.

Look at dat stance. LOOK AT IT.

...but I will say that the Outlander-lite stock ride height of the Lulzcer helped me drive straight over a dead varmint (medium sized dog? baby deer? couldn't tell) today. Zero damage—went right over it. I've got wheel gaps that could hold Raphael's entire Baja Bug, man.

And I can also waft right over stuff like a boss.

Cars need to be set up for the specific environment they're running on. Racecars often adjust all of that stuff if a track is bumpier than the last one they ran, for example.

Public roads? Public roads suck. Speedbumps. Potholes. Dead varmints. Lumps. Crappy maintenance. All suck.

I won't say "herp derp stance is dumb" and feed the vehemently pro- and anti-stance trolls, but it's often either primarily aesthetic or set up for a certain non-road environment (DD-ed autocross cars, for example) on road cars. Thus, y'all have far more patience than I do. (H Street class 4 lyfe, bro.)

TwoFortified > LeadfootYT 12/23/2013 at 19:51

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Since when did anything lowered mean "Stanced". This thing isn't stanced. The entire point of the look (as far as I understand it) is to slam the car as low as it will possibly go, fenders and camber be damned.

This car is lowered, and looks pretty good (or, it does in the links you've been posting for people), but IMHO, I don't consider this "Stanced". Do I have my definition wrong?

LeadfootYT > TwoFortified 12/23/2013 at 22:08

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Your post is exactly the misconception I sought to correct, down to the definition you associate with the term. "Stance" refers only to a car whose stance (track, wheelbase, tire position relative to fender, etc.) has been altered in any way.

This vehicle has had its stance altered (and by a technical definition could be "stanced"):

As has this one:

As has this one:

Like many people on Jalopnik and elsewhere, you have been taught to associate "stanced" vehicles (which are often attractive autoX or track cars, or functional street vehicles) with "slammed" vehicles. Hence why you used "slam" in your definition. "Stance" can refer to a car raised or lowered - "slammed" is the no-longer-functional, oil-pan-scraping-on-the-ground look that many people disagree with.

I've been trying to correct that misconception on Oppo recently. Using Subarus.

TwoFortified > LeadfootYT 12/24/2013 at 15:00

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I will be the first person to admit that I tend to buck changes, particularly in the way things are defined (re: A post I made a couple days ago about the use of the nickname "Godzilla" in reference to the soulless pos R35). However...In my very humble, often-too-loud opinion, the meaning of the word "Stanced" has changed to an umbrella term that, at it's very least, is synonymous with "Slammed", and may or may not include extreme (for normal road conditions) camber, caster, or toe.

On that note, the way you've defined "Stance" is so vague, what's the point of the term? By your definition, "Stance" includes pretty much ANY modification to suspension. "Yeah, dropped my Rav4 half an inch and tweaked the camber by negative one tenth of a degree. That shit is STANCED". Uh huh...tell me that's how you REALLY think people use the term anymore. I use an extreme example to illustrate holes in the definition. I'm under the impression you are lobbying for cars such as the S15(?) that Milky posted to be called "Stanced". Why bother? It'll just confuse guys like me who really aren't into that scene, and "Lowered" or even "Slammed" (whose pejorative nature is really dependent on your perspective. I love slammed cars, but do not care for what I define as "stanced") is a relatively accurate descriptor.

My 10c. Merry Christmas :)

Zcar2068 > LeadfootYT 04/27/2016 at 11:26

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God... Subarus are so stupid. Why does everyone who drives one think that their car meets the definition of everything cool? And why do they all wear white sunglasses?

LeadfootYT > Zcar2068 04/27/2016 at 16:25

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Congratulations! This is by far and away the oldest post I’ve ever received a comment on (December of 2013). A few more months and it would have been literally three years since posting. Incredible.