HELP!! Audi of America wants to void my warranty!

"hangus77" (hangus77)
11/19/2013 at 18:47 • Filed to: None

So, I am driving home from work yesterday and out of nowhere my car starts to buck violently under any form of acceleration. I think "Maybe this is a misfire?" due to my past experiences with crappy cars. Here is the problem: I drive a 2012 Audi A5 with 27K miles.

Mind = Blown

Anyway, I manage to get it to the Audi dealership and pick a free loaner car thinking that it might be an ignition problem or something of the like. (Maybe a coil pack?) Today I call up the dealership to try to find out what could possibly be going on. Come to find out that it isn't a coil pack ANDDDDD that they are voiding my powertrain warranty because I tried out an APR stage 1 tune on my car but didn't end up keeping it. They plugged in their diagnostic machine and it returned codes that the mothership in Germany deemed as "this car has been tampered with, don't let the guy in the front door". On top of that mess, they STILL don't know what the problem is and they will basically have to tear it apart to find out. First off comes the ladder bearing $1500 to see if I have a broken rocker or valve spring. If that isn't the problem and it is on the bottom end somewhere, I could be looking at a new engine $10,000. Not covered by warranty. Awesome. I guess the point of this whole rant is, do I have any ground to stand on? Am I a victim or just an idiot, or maybe both? The place that I got the tune done is being SUPER helpful and it sort of sounds like they may hook me up in some way with the repairs if the warranty is truly screwed. Who knows. Either way, I think that it is totally a cop-out for them to just throw up their arms immediately and wash their hands clean of the issue. My car as 27 thousand miles. I use the right oil, change it more often than necessary, don't redline it everywhere and this is the thanks I get.

They did a "smoke test" by putting smoke in the cylinder, sealing it up then turning the engine over. Sure enough, I have smoke coming out of the oil fill hole. Who knows how THAT is happening...

Again, this is certainly my fault and I should have researched this further but I just feel like I'm getting cast out to pasture here. I really doubt that me trying the tune out caused this problem and now I'm stuck with a fantastic car that has 1/4 of the engine it used to. Great.

Any advice is helpful.

Thank you.

DISCUSSION (50)

Manuél Ferrari > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 18:52

Ugh :(

I thought APR tunes were supposed to not void the warranty. Maybe I had read wrong.

Maybe you could start an online petition to have Audi change their minds. Put the link in an Oppo post and get the post promoted to FP so it gets as many views as possible. Maybe Audi would care if a bunch of enthusiasts signed a petition? Maybe not, but it's all I can think of...

drunkenup2 > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 18:54

get Audi of America involved and see what they have to say, from my experience and from what I've seen, they're more than willing to go the extra mile to satisfy customers. With a tune, however, I'm not sure if there is much they will do, but it is worth a try!

highmodulus > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 18:54

Alas, that's a common occurrence for modded cars with tunes that later have engine issues. Despite the forum wanna-be lawyers claiming the Federal warranty act means they have to prove your tune roached your engine, the reality is most big manufacturers do this. Sorry man- hope the shop that tuned it will stand by their work.

One of the reason I have avoided the non-factory supported tunes, got to pay to play when it comes to tunes its not worth the risk to me.

Curious- why did you pull the tune in the first place?

Biostar01 > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 18:54

Yup. Cars and dealerships can both be stupid sometimes.

Like Volvo's new (relatively) rule: premium gas or voided warranty.

505Turbeaux > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 18:54

second BS VAG warranty post on here of the day. Other was a broken timing belt on a TDI, 30K before the service interval. As a true VAG fan, owning something like 25-30 of them in the past, I mistrust them, and I am thinking they do not know the true power of the internet. Keep us posted on the outcome. And good on APR for doing the right thing and helping you through however they can. A tuner company outdoing the manufacturer in customer relations, imagine that :)

Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 18:55

Audi is probably alot stricter than Subaru is with their warranty, but when I talked with them about modding and how it affects the warranty they said as long as any issues cant be traced to the modifications then your in the clear. Again this is from Subaru.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 18:57

Unless Audi of America can *prove* the APR tune *caused* the fault (and if it was removed prior to the fault, that's going to be hard to do), the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act applies, and the warranty will cover it.

You may have to bitch about it though.

TheOnelectronic > Manuél Ferrari
11/19/2013 at 18:58

Tunes will always affect the warranty, but certain companies like Dinan or Stasis will offer their own replacement warranty.

hangus77 > drunkenup2
11/19/2013 at 18:58

I do have them involved and they are going to contact the dealership to determine what is exactly going on. Doesn't sound promising. Can't help feel like I am being hung out to dry, though.

Victorious Secret > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 18:59

Nope.

Audi's warranty is written to HOLY SHIT THAT IS BRILLIANT levels of lacking loopholes.

You car now has a TD1 flag on Audi's internal system and will never be covered by anything at all on the powertrain, any other service thing you might come in for going forward will also get looked at more carefully.

Here is the thing, flashing but not keeping is the same as flashing as keeping to their computers. They can't tell the difference if you didn't remove the tune the proper way (read: literally replacing it with a stock ECU). APR itself should have 'hidden' modes but if you used an older one you are up shits creek (someone with a modern Audi that has APR correct me on any point so far, I'm going off Audizine memory here)

You really have no leg to stand on. APR owes nothing since they don't have any stake in it, Audi doesn't either.

Audi's entire Stalin-esque warranty is a result of the B5 owners who'd overdo the turbos in their engines and come in for new ones under warranty. Audi had enough of people tuning their cars and then coming back when components started breaking. They really have no leniency when it comes to this kind of stuff. Your dealer MIGHT be able to help out but they can't do much as Audi NA/Audi Europe is the one who authorizes warranty work and reimbursement. No dealer will eat the cost of a new engine if they aren't getting reimbursed down the line.

hangus77 > Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ
11/19/2013 at 18:59

The rule is still the same for Audi, but their response to me was that the computer controls everything in the car, so if you alter the brain in any way, it could potentially be the source of any problem. Horse shit.

davedave1111 > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 19:00

Unfortunately, if it has voided the warranty - and you'll want to check every word carefully - then you're going to need to go on bended knee to Audi asking for a goodwill contribution. If the tuning company are willing to pick up part or all of the tab, that's impressive. Hopefully between the two paths you can get it all paid for without dipping too deep into your own pocket.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 19:00

I mean it may not be directly caused by the APR tune, but it is an engine problem. First thing first, under warranty, an engine is an engine. Modification to a part means a modification to the whole. And being that it has been flashed and de-flashes really doesn't mean anything. In these situations that actually counts as 2 changes made to them.

Second off, I would see if you can go up the chain actually into Audi. Audi has a team that oversees service and customer relations, but that doesn't mean that the dealership actually presented shit to them. They wouldn't get reimbursed from Audi anywhere near as much as they can charge you, so to them the better business practice is to actually blame you and say that Audi said it.

So go up the food chain, out of the dealership and actually into Audi. And don't trust the dealership to do it. They're interest is in making money, not what's best for you or even the brand.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > highmodulus
11/19/2013 at 19:02

The manufacturer can do whatever they want to.

That doesn't preclude you getting a lawyer and suing them/sending them a letter on the firm's stationery to cover it.

i.e. no matter which path is chosen, you will pay money out of pocket.

hangus77 > Victorious Secret
11/19/2013 at 19:04

God dammit. Would have NEVER done it if I'd have known that it was completely a deal breaker. I guess I am an asshat.

Manuél Ferrari > TheOnelectronic
11/19/2013 at 19:04

I think it was Statis I had read about. I forgot if it was a replacement warranty or an Audi-approved tune.

Victorious Secret > Manuél Ferrari
11/19/2013 at 19:06

Used to be that Audi gave Stasis their blessing but lately Audi has been moving away from that. Stasis tunes on their own are shite compared to GIAC or APR.

Victorious Secret > drunkenup2
11/19/2013 at 19:07

Tune automatically strips powertrain warranty. Its written INTO the warranty. Its ironclad.

AoA doesn't care.

Manuél Ferrari > Victorious Secret
11/19/2013 at 19:09

Looks like you're right, they don't bless Statis (or anyone else) anymore:

http://www.r8talk.com/forums/5-gener…

Team6.1 > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 19:11

I was under the impression that tunes will always void the warranty no matter what. It doesn't matter if you revert back because the computer keeps track everytime it is changed. I'd say you are pretty well completely F'd even though it sounds like it's the car not the tune...I've had someone tell me they used a rare earth magnet to brick the ecu. Wipes the memory but you have to get the car towed. Don't know if it works. And at this point I assume your vin is blacklisted

Victorious Secret > Manuél Ferrari
11/19/2013 at 19:11

Yea, Audi got really tired of Stasis tunes causing enough issues (on B8 S4s they have HORRID fuel mapping and timing apparently)

Hell, Audi instituted this Stalin level warranty system because people kept blowing their turbo engines and coming in for warranty work and dealers would sign it through without thinking twice. Now every car, no matter what it is having done (usually, this depends on your dealer relationship) has its ECU plugged in and scanned.

You do anything to your car that Audi doesn't like, it gets a TD1 flag and you might as well kiss your powertrain warranty goodbye. Its so well written but it doesn't violate the Mag-Moss warranty act.

Manuél Ferrari > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
11/19/2013 at 19:11

Great point - you spend money either way. It's a bad situation to be in.

Victorious Secret > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
11/19/2013 at 19:14

No, you can't. Not with Audi.

See, Audi of America's car warranty is so brilliantly written that it gives them perfect legal grounds to void your powertrain warranty upon detecting a tune without violating the Mag-Moss Act.

Why?

Because you add a tune, you've changed the OEM operational parameters that the engine and transmission and everything else abide by. Audi is no longer responsible for the work because you modified those parameters. They have no obligation to warranty those changes. So you are up shits creek on the Titanic.

AoA has been doing this for YEARS. They haven't been sued to taken to court. You don't win. Try and sue the dealer, AoA steps in and wins.

Victorious Secret > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
11/19/2013 at 19:15

No it doesn't.

MM has nothing to do with how AoA voids your powertrain warranty. Read my other reply to you. Audi has been doing this for YEARS. No lawsuits that have made them overturn this stance.

You modify the ECU, you are modifying every component the ECU talks to (which is everything). Their warranty covers an original ECU talking to original parts. Not a modified ECU. Its brutally simplistic.

STREPITUS > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 19:16

So I'm no lawyer but I am an engineer in the automotive industry and I understand where Audi is coming from. The company spent millions of dollars tuning the engine to work perfectly under a certain set of parameters. Then some shmo comes in, who knows what he knows or doesn't know about engines, and rewrites how the engine works - when and how much fuel is injected, when the spark happens, etc. This changes the internal forces on the valves, the pistons, the cylinder walls, and everything else. These extra forces were not what Audi was thinking about when they wrote the warranty, so why should they protect against it. For all they care, some random kid who knows dick came in and mashed the keyboard at the remap screen, started the car once, blew up your engine, and reverted it back to stock. There is 0 logical reason for Audi to feel bad for you (sorry for being so blunt).

Think of it this way. Say you have an SUV and you're not happy how slow the power lifegate opens. Some company out there say they can make it better by "tuning" the struts. You tell them to go for it, so they peel of the tampering seal on the strut and double the stored pressure. You run it once, and think "no thats much too fast and strong" so you have the struts depressurized. But in that one run you had weakened the liftgate hinge because its not designed to have that force exerted on it. Then the next day the liftgate collapses because the hinge gave way. Would you expect the OEM to replace the liftgate?

This is why I always tell my friends - only get OEM supported tunes - like Ford Racing, Alpina, etc. Or better yet, just be happy with the engine tune the company spent millions of dollars developing specifically for your car.

Manuél Ferrari > Victorious Secret
11/19/2013 at 19:17

Very interesting. That totally makes sense how things got to this point. Audi was selling turbo charged performance models before BMW or Mercedes (well at least in the modern era, the 2002tii was a long time ago...). It was natural for S4 owners to want to extract even more performance from those cars so they got their cars tuned. Audi corporate lost profits covering the dealer-performed repairs under warranty and got tough with their contracts.

Note to self: don't chip tune cars, no matter how tempting it is

Victorious Secret > Manuél Ferrari
11/19/2013 at 19:21

The upside/downside is that your basic warranty is 4 years. Tune to your hearts desire after.

Audi would rather you dump 10-15k more into a RS model if you want more, and a lot of the population thinks this way.

I'm not against tuning at any angle, I love it. I also love my new car having that new car warranty for as long as possible. Its still a German car, shit still be expensive if it does break.

Manuél Ferrari > Victorious Secret
11/19/2013 at 19:26

And definitely good to do the research since some tunes are better than others, as you noted. Also good not to be an early adopter. Let others try a new tune and use it for a couple years before trying it out. Probably lots of good info on forums about each common tune.

Victorious Secret > Manuél Ferrari
11/19/2013 at 19:28

I've just spent enough time on Audizine to realize this...

Are you Mr. Burns? Tune the car as soon as you pick it up. Go nuts.

Do you like warranty? Wait 4 years.

Do you want absurd power out of the box with a warranty? Buy a C63.

Manuél Ferrari > Victorious Secret
11/19/2013 at 19:31

LOL. Good call.

You can never go wrong with the big N/A V8. It solves all problems.

Victorious Secret > Manuél Ferrari
11/19/2013 at 19:33

Especially the new motors from all 3 companies.

I honestly, truly struggle seeing a need for more power. I know everyone always says that. But 500hp+ from the M, AMG and RS models?

We are well into supercar power territory of 5 years ago. If there is a moment of "enough power" we reached it a while ago.

Manuél Ferrari > Victorious Secret
11/19/2013 at 19:41

I agree. Especially on public roads. Automakers should focus on the chassis now. Less weight and better driving dynamics are needed, not more power.

While forced induction is all the rage what I would like to see (if I was magically given the choice of how car companies should design their cars) would be lighter cars with smaller N/A engines. And by smaller I just mean less displacement, not less cylinders. It would be awesome to see cars like the 3 Series & A4 get back down under 3000 lbs with the use of more aluminum and with carbon fiber (if carbon production eventually gets cheap enough). Then they could be paired with small-ish N/A engines that put out good amounts of power while sounding good and running smooth.

But of course I live in a fantasy land so it's not going to happen... Cars will keep getting bigger and heavier and automakers will use forced induction to get around fuel economy regulations.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Victorious Secret
11/19/2013 at 20:04

So the gist is that the first mistake is that you bought an Audi.

The second is that you didn't follow "If you want a faster car, buy it"

The third is that there is a reference to Lee Iacocca in this post.

No Prius Needed > Biostar01
11/19/2013 at 20:40

I think Audi does the same too.

Ben > hangus77
11/19/2013 at 20:47

It's almost always better to just buy the faster version of the car if you aren't happy with the power. S5 or RS5 are options in your case. Warranty is still there, reliability is probably better than with a tune (APR is generally mildly tuned though), and the resale will most likely be better. AoA will eff you. I threatened a lawsuit and they told me to do it. They have near endless funds and time. Just bring your car to a reputable shop that isn't the dealership if your warranty is void.

His Stigness > Victorious Secret
11/19/2013 at 21:53

Holy shit. I was about to say they have to prove that the tune caused the damage, but I had no idea Audi (smartly) wrote the warranty to be voided as a soon as a tune is added. That's fucked up but also very smart on their part, he's fucked.

His Stigness > 505Turbeaux
11/19/2013 at 22:05

VAG is not wrong in this case, they should however fix the timing belt as it's failed before they expected it to.

As VS has told many people already, Audi has written their warranty to be devoid of any loophole and to void the warranty if any tune is introduced, which from a business perspective makes sense. Audi is only following their own warranty and the author of the post should have done more research as to what the tune would do in regards to warranty, and how reliable it is. APR is also not responsible for any damage and shouldn't be held liable, but it is nice of them to be offering to pay for it.

I do think though that if this story gets more attention they should pay to diagnose the car, and if the problem was caused by the tune, send him packing, but if it's not they should fix it. And I'm only saying they should do this because of the internet, if this had happened ten years ago I'd say tough luck and move on.

505Turbeaux > His Stigness
11/20/2013 at 08:09

100%

highmodulus > His Stigness
11/20/2013 at 08:28

Its not just Audi- other "tuner favorites" like Subaru and BMW are the same way. That is why smarter Tuners like Dinan offer their own matching warranties and have worked out special arrangements with the factory and dealers.

But if you roach your WRX with a Cobb (or some open source thing you downloaded) Subaru isn't giving you a new engine. Another reason to avoid modded cars when buying used.

The best advice I have seen is wait until your warranty is gone before modding, and spend the extra money to get a tuner/company that warranties their work.

Still sucks about your A5.

His Stigness > highmodulus
11/20/2013 at 14:50

You're right you should wait to tune your car until after the warranty. Or at least leave the big things out like the ECU flash and other things that will void the warranty.

And it's not my car lol, I wouldn't get a tune and then reverse it. And I sure as hell wouldn't do it under warranty.

Tnguyen77 > hangus77
06/24/2014 at 22:32

hangus, any resolution to this? I'm now going through exactly what you went through...thanks

hangus77 > Tnguyen77
06/25/2014 at 09:21

Hey man. The only fix was to fork over cash to the shop that initially did the tune to have them replace all four pistons. They gave me a HELL of a deal on labor and the whole thing only cost about $3 grand. I had to harass everyone that I could and while I didn't get off scot-free, I did get a killer deal on the work done.

Oh, one last thing: FORGET about using the Audi dealership for any repairs, moving forward. They told me I needed a whole short block which they quoted at a cool $12,000 for the whole job.

It didn't need a short block.

Good luck!

Tnguyen77 > hangus77
06/25/2014 at 12:24

did you have a misfire on one of your cylinder heads? Was there oil in a cylinder head?

hangus77 > Tnguyen77
06/25/2014 at 18:09

It wasn't as much of a "misfire" as it was a "catastrophic piston spontaneous implosion" lol. Cylinder #4 decided that it hated being whole and a huge chunk of the side skirt left the building. It was sitting in the oil pan along with the oil slinger and bottom compression ring. The only thing left was the top one. It was quite the sight when torn down. What are your symptoms? Did you check the ignition coils?

Tnguyen77 > hangus77
06/26/2014 at 12:21

cylinder head #2 is misfiring and there's oil and metal in the cylinder head...no tear down yet..meeting with the service manager next Monday

hangus77 > Tnguyen77
06/26/2014 at 13:02

I'd put money on it that the piston grenaded itself. The metal you see is likely the remnants of a blown ring. Do you have warranty still? If not, don't let the Audi dealership work on it, they will likely charge you a fortune. Where do you live? If you live close to me, I know a good shop that does great work!

Tnguyen77 > hangus77
06/26/2014 at 17:12

I live in Southern California...car is still under warranty but I'd doubt they'll cover it..you don't think I'll need a new engine block?

hangus77 > Tnguyen77
06/26/2014 at 20:21

Eh, its hard to say. If you do have an exploded piston, Audi will always tell you that you need a new short block because there is "scoring" on the cylinder liners. Of course, the liners are a non serviceable item and you can't get new ones without a new bottom end. In my case, there was zero scoring on the liner, believe it or not. I just needed a new piston. Being that the pistons that I got were likely from the same batch of shitty metal, I went new pistons across the board. They have to take them all out anyway, so why not.

Bottom line is, if you don't have a tune on your car, you are covered. If you DO have a tune, get it swapped back to stock and pray that their diagnostic machine doesn't pick it up. If it does, you are up shit's creek.

Tnguyen77 > hangus77
07/07/2014 at 13:46

you were right..it was the piston..just like you, they voided my warranty due to the Apr mod..they wanted to charge me $6000 for the repair, and just like you , I found a guy to do it for $3k...bunch of crooks

rob > hangus77
05/05/2015 at 21:05

I had the same issue with my s4 b8 car kept misfiring they couldn’t figure out they switched o2 sensor wasn’t the problem check all coils spark plugs wasn’t the problem they also moved around my injectors to seeif one failed at the end both my cats had melted inside the car did not read that the cats were bad but at the thats all it was my car was stuck at the dealership for a month so i would have someone look in to that first and the dealer also told me not to tune the car no matter what tune it is they will void my warranty