Transmissions Aren't About Performance

"TheOnelectronic" (theoneelectronic) 11/05/2013 at 23:26 • Filed to: puppies!

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It's a debate that pops up every now and then on pretty much any car community; Manual vs. Dual-clutch/automated gearboxes. And everyone is just wrong.

The usual argument on the row-your-own side consists of statements like "You have more control of the car" or "if your brakes go out you can just downshift." But let's be honest: You're not feathering the clutch to precisely regulate power when you're going around a curve. Automatics engine brake just fine, as anyone who has ever hit the wrong paddle will attest. And of course, the discrepancy in efficiency that used to result from a manual transmission is now not only absent, but inverted.

As for the DCT groupies, you'll see endless listings of milisecond shift time advantages, half-second lap time improvements, and other such completely irrelevant statistics. There is a very small subset of Enthusiastica Automotiva that is actually going to benefit from faster shift times when they're blazin' it around the track. I have never been in my car and thought "If only that shift had happened faster!" Now, granted, when you want absolute, earth-shearing levels of acceleration from a dig, Dual Clutch is the way to go. The robo-clutch can put precisely the right amount of power down, and the lightning-quick shifts mean you don't lose momentum during a change.

The point I'm getting to is, we need to stop trying to justify our chosen linkage with numbers and facts. It's not about that. It's about fun. Enjoyment. Connection. I drive a traditional manual because, for me, the act of changing gears is enjoyable. It makes me feel more a part of the car's operation, and I love the feeling you get from a flawless heel-toe downshift.

On the other hand, if you like the ability to not worry about shifting all the time, but take over when you'd like and not have the pudginess of a fluid coupling muddying up your driveline, DCT's are great.

I get it. I do. Manuals are a dying breed. We thought, hoped for a while that they would survive because no sports car could be sold without one, but then DCT's came along and we lost that comfort. Suddenly the cars available with a stick were burning away like flashpaper in the breeze. Audi, BMW, Porsche, Nissan, Lamborghini, Ferrari... all were coming out with more and more cars that were not available with a manual. We feel obligated to defeat this newfound menace, to preserve our way of life. The thing is, though, we don't matter. The people who care about lap times, driving fidelity, shift times, launch control, etc... don't matter. The trophy wife who doesn't know that her RS5 doesn't have the same automatic transmission as her Lexus RX? She matters. Her, and people like her, are what drive car design trends. Not us enthusiasts screaming out into the void.

Puppies!

Life and Times of Magoo: The People's Champ > TheOnelectronic 11/05/2013 at 23:40

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Oh how I love the manual vs DCT debate. Sit back with a large bag of popcorn every time it goes down.

Funny thing though, I figured it all out a while and it's always a joke. Because even though everyone rambles on and on at each other. Here be the facts.

It's two different conversations thrown into one. The manual guys like the feel etc. ( I am one of them) and the DCT side is talking about track times and trap speed. There is no need for conversation. Manual is more fun for real life driving and DCT is obviously...mathematics YO.....the choice for pure track achievement.

The End

twinturbobmw > TheOnelectronic 11/05/2013 at 23:48

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This was just an excuse to post a puppy video wasn't it?

twinturbobmw > TheOnelectronic 11/05/2013 at 23:48

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This was just an excuse to post a puppy video wasn't it?

MtrRider Just Wants Doritos > TheOnelectronic 11/05/2013 at 23:50

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I think if you are the kind of driver that can drive your car at its absolute limit on the track, within a second of a pro race driver consistently, and can do so with no electronic aids on a DCT will be the best choice for you. If, like most people, just hitting your apexes and setting a personal fast lap keeps you happy, you will probably enjoy a manual more.

SpeedSix > TheOnelectronic 11/05/2013 at 23:56

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I was thinking about how few people understood this point a few days ago. Nicely written!

witchdoctor11 > Life and Times of Magoo: The People's Champ 11/06/2013 at 00:12

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Very good points. I love hearing the lap time arguments also, especially when one considers that most who comment on the topic rarely, if ever track their car. Point being, if they do go to the track there are a myriad of other, much more important aspects to putting together a good time than pulling a paddle and I guarantee they have not mastered those aspects. Perfect everything else first then go looking for those remaining tenths.

Life and Times of Magoo: The People's Champ > witchdoctor11 11/06/2013 at 00:20

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Hasttag PerfectLapsOr STFU

The man in the iron mask > TheOnelectronic 11/06/2013 at 00:27

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Merica is our answer, they offer manual cts-v manual corvette manual mustang manual camaro z28, there are lots of options

Jayhawk Jake > TheOnelectronic 11/06/2013 at 01:13

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First of all, nice tag.

Secondly I both agree and disagree. You're right, but I have a different opinion.

Transmission choice all comes down to personal preference. It's no different than picking a black car over a white car. I'm partial to white even though I own a very much black car. But I digress.

Are you an amateur racer competing on the weekend? Flappy paddles might be your preference. Do you like shifting with 3 pedals? You prefer manual. Do you just want to get to work comfortably and easily? I think you'd prefer an auto.

To me, it doesn't matter what other people drive. Sadly on this site many purists will jump down the throats of auto drivers because they aren't connected to the car, or they're distracted too easily or their mothers have gross hair. None of that is correct. I'd agree you lose some connection with auto, but if you don't want or need it it doesn't matter. I can attest that it's just as easy to get distracted in a manual, I've eaten fries while driving either transmission, and my mothers hair is very pleasant.

The point I'm trying to make is there's no right or wrong answer. People enjoy different things about different cars just like they enjoy different foods or different movies or different names for their pets. It's about time we stop looking at transmission choice with such hatred for one another and just drive.

Textured Soy Protein > TheOnelectronic 11/06/2013 at 01:33

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My last 3 cars were manuals. My current car is a BMW 135is DCT. Manuals are more involving, but I got sick of shifting all the time. And I'm someone who heel-toe downshifts into every turn, just because it's smoother. The DCT in my car is fantastic, because it's so versatile.

In Drive with the sport button turned off, it's a 320 hp car that gives me a consistent 22 mpg with probably 2/3 city driving. It goes for high gears, and throttle tip-in is a bit soft, but if you need to punch it, the car downshifts readily, and super quickly. It downshifts going up steep hills. Part-throttle acceleration is definitely there, unlike most modern economy-minded cars I've driven that are so hell-bent on getting the best mileage possible that you pretty much have to floor them to get any kind of acceleration at all.

In Drive with the sport button turned on, throttle tip-in becomes nearly instant, shifts are quicker, and the car does a good job of picking the gear I would likely choose for sorta-kinda fast driving around town. Upshifts have fun bark noises, downshifts get cool rev match blips (it still does this without the sport button on but they're more pronounced with it on) and with the more aggressive throttle mapping you get fun F&F-style BOV noises. This is more satisfying of an experience but it's a solid 3 mpg penalty with my driving style.

If for some reason I disagree with the computer's chosen gear, I can use the paddles at any time and the car will shift. After a while it kicks back over to auto mode. But the car is pretty much always in a good gear, so I rarely intervene when in Drive.

Keep the sport button turned on and slide the shifter over to the manual gate, but don't shift for yourself, and the car turns into a total hooligan. It holds gears really to really high rpm even if you're not driving very hard. It pretty much never lets the engine get below 2500 rpm except when slowing to a stop. If you let off the throttle at low speed, it'll probably be in 2nd and the car makes this crazy exhaust burble.

In the manual gate, if you use the paddles then you're in full manual mode, it doesn't kick back over to auto unless you move the shifter to drive and then to the manual gate. Shifts are damn fast.

Would I buy a car with a manual transmission at some point in the future? Sure. But the DCT is so much less fatiguing for all the mundane driving tasks I do every day, while still being a really fun car. It makes for a good compromise. But for people who gotta have that third pedal and manual shifter, hey regular manuals are good too.

TheOnelectronic > twinturbobmw 11/06/2013 at 02:01

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Who needs excuses...

TheOnelectronic > Life and Times of Magoo: The People's Champ 11/06/2013 at 02:01

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Exactly my point. Pick which one you like and enjoy it. Stop trying to justify it with numbers because you don't think "I like this one more" is a good reason.

Eazy-O > TheOnelectronic 11/06/2013 at 05:35

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I dunno mate, most of the time, the arguments in favour of manuals are, as you put it, more enjoyment and less complicated hardware (ergo less things to break).

Anyway, as far as I can gather, manuals have been dying out in 'murica for a good while now. The rest of the world, we don't much care for them, to be honest. :)

Exhibit A:

Indepth (no need to register): http://www.statista.com/statistics/204…

tomtom615 > TheOnelectronic 11/06/2013 at 07:21

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The problem for us and saving the manuals is that we are the purists. If there is one things marketers know about purists, it's that they should not market to them, because they will bitch about any changes then consume anyways. It makes more sense to market to the masses and make your sales than to have a car loved by purists and sells like shit.

Morgan > Textured Soy Protein 11/06/2013 at 08:28

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I hear you. I love a manual, but with size 12's I can't heel-toe most cars. I'll probably have a DCT going forward...

amlb146 > Life and Times of Magoo: The People's Champ 11/06/2013 at 08:33

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Amen.

Textured Soy Protein > Morgan 11/06/2013 at 10:58

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I also wear size 12 shoes. It's more like, ball of foot on brake, right edge of foot on gas. But it's doable!

Casper > TheOnelectronic 11/06/2013 at 11:34

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One thing I think gets really blurred is that it's basically an argument between manual and automated clutch transmission. No body argues that slushbox automatics are better, but people argue that the automatic option of paddle shifting transmissions is nice from time to time and that having them automatically revmatching and clutching is less error prone. To further confuse the point, people don't realize the difference between a paddle shift optioned slushbox vs something like a DCT.

As someone who owns cars of each, I prefer manual clutches. It gives me the freedom to kick the back out however I want, slip the clutch when I need to to crawl out of something slippery, and is one more tool for balancing the car. It also gives me the ability to change the clutch out for reasonably cheap to dial in the feel to exactly what I want. It's the perfect traction control device.

GreenN_Gold > TheOnelectronic 11/12/2013 at 19:31

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I haven't driven a DCT, is it as responsive as a manual? Or does it have lag that's better than an automatic but not as good as a manual? Because the zero lag in a manual is one of the most intoxicating things about it.

I also love having neutral as an option, I utilize it constantly. I realize you COULD shift between N/D all the time in an automatic, but that certainly doesn't provide the same function and experience as with the manual.

112358132134 > witchdoctor11 11/12/2013 at 19:48

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one argument that is rarely voiced is that of the pissed off young driver who wants to piss someone else off (usually school officials) or wants to blow off some steam with a nice 6000 rpm clutch bump burnout. To this there is no argument that manual is best

112358132134 > Textured Soy Protein 11/12/2013 at 19:50

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love that car to death and im glad to hear a comprehensive intelligent review of the dct

TheOnelectronic > GreenN_Gold 11/12/2013 at 19:52

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There's no lag. It's still a direct link between the engine and the wheels via a clutch.

witchdoctor11 > 112358132134 11/12/2013 at 21:13

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could not agree more, it is the primary form of expression for high school aged boys.

112358132134 > witchdoctor11 11/12/2013 at 21:48

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4:00 for the part im talking about haha

Saracen > TheOnelectronic 11/13/2013 at 01:37

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Preach it.

250k miles on manual transmission cars in the last 12 years, and I don't plan on stopping.

ACCEL_ENG > TheOnelectronic 11/13/2013 at 08:36

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Manuals are better, and the only true manual requires your right hand to physically pull a lever mechanically linked to the gear box. An "automated manual" gear box is still an automatic, regardless of clutch or torque converter. If in any mode, any at all, the car is capable of shifting itself, you sir, drive an automatic. AND THEY SUCK!!

TheOnelectronic > ACCEL_ENG 11/13/2013 at 08:47

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It's exactly this myopic elitism which needs to end. Let people enjoy whatever they enjoy. I like being able to shift gears on my S4, but I also like putting the S6 into launch control mode and risking retinal detachment.

GreenN_Gold > TheOnelectronic 11/13/2013 at 11:10

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Interesting. I need to try one.

TheOnelectronic > GreenN_Gold 11/13/2013 at 11:30

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The best part is the little "blats" that accompany shifts. It's a silly thing, but very enjoyable.

Example:

Daddio > TheOnelectronic 11/13/2013 at 12:01

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I'll never afford a Ferrari anyway. As long as Honda keeps making manuals, I'll find something suitable.

TheOnelectronic > Daddio 11/13/2013 at 13:21

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That is, of course, assuming they keep making cars with manual transmissions.

ACCEL_ENG > TheOnelectronic 11/13/2013 at 13:55

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Manual S4.. awesome.

Automatic S6.. .LAME!!

It's my opinion, and I am entitled to it.. Also it is correct... Also, what are you doing with so many Audi S cars?

lingmeister > TheOnelectronic 11/14/2013 at 01:29

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Very misinformed writeup. First of all, DCT is not a slushbox with fluid coupling. It is 'Dual Clutch'.

Second of all, if you haven't driven a DCT extensively, then you don't know its advantages. Forget the split second shift, faster lap, etc. The advantage is that you can have your hands on the wheel the whole time, during twisties, turns, etc and be able to upshift/downshift and always be at the right gear coming out of the apex. I've seen many manual transmission videos where the person stays at one gear throughout much of the turning part of the race, seemingly running the engine in the 3k-7/8k range.

Using DCT effectively requires you to have prior experience with MT, since you can't just throw it in D or S and think your work is done. You should know when to upshift/downshift by sound of the engine, perform engine braking, etc.

One advantage of the DCT is that it shifts so fast that you can upshift in mid-corner without upsetting the balance of the car. This is either advantageous if you have hit redline and want to continue to accelerate, or you are powering thru the turn and are probably a little to hot into the turn....a blip upshift will instantly put a little less power from the wheel into the pavement due to the change in gear ratio...no throttle lift oversteer or going off the track.

TheOnelectronic > lingmeister 11/14/2013 at 01:41

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I definitely did not say that.

On the other hand, if you like the ability to not worry about shifting all the time, but take over when you'd like and not have the pudginess of a fluid coupling muddying up your driveline, DCT's are great.

I've never really felt like I suffered from having to reach down to shift as I, like you said, don't tend to shift mid-turn. While that may be important for going full retard down a twisty, that's not quite my style. I like my organs in their present configuration. Yes, I agree that DCT's are nice for being able to quickly change gear without having to worry about matching revs and all that. I most appreciate them coming into a corner, and not having to mix braking hard enough and shifting smoothly.

I do have extensive experience with DCT's. I've driven, in chronological order, A 2008 GTI DSG, a 2010 Cayman S PDK, and a 2013 Audi S6 DSG for substantial amounts of time, and countless others, from the wonderful PDK in the 911C4S to the downright atrocious monstrosity that Aston put in its cars circa 2009, for much briefer jaunts.

The whole point is NOT that manuals are somehow better, it's that we should stop trying to invent stupid reasons why X is better than Y and just be okay with saying "I like this way, but you're free to like your way more."

I'm not sure why people think I'm attacking DCT's or anything, but I'm not. I'm just arguing that "I like it" should be a perfectly valid reason for choosing a transmission.