"ddavidn" (ddavidn) 11/05/2013 at 17:55 • Filed to: Ghostride the blip

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Finally visiting that ethanol-free gas station down the road from work today. If I can find it. Couldn't find it last time. It's not even 3% more expensive than Costco right now, and I'm happy to pay the difference up to 10%, since I think ethanol is basically just filler and not something I want to pay for.

Gasolinelollipop > ddavidn 11/05/2013 at 17:57

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I recently changed all my lawn equipment to ethanol free fuel. I can now grab the lawnmower and it starts right up after sitting for a few weeks.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > ddavidn 11/05/2013 at 17:59

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I'd love to patronize the e-free gas station near my house, but my car takes premium, and they only offer 87 octane ethanol free. You may not see a jump in mileage your first tank because

A. winter blend is here

B. fuel trims take a bit to adjust

C. that 10% ethanol doesn't do 0% work, it does actually burn and provide power, just not as much as the gas it's replacing (unless tuned specifically for it, somewhere in the e85+ range)

Eager to hear back, comrade

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > ddavidn 11/05/2013 at 17:59

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Nevermind.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > ddavidn 11/05/2013 at 18:00

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Tsc, I wish we still had those in Brazil. My engine is not setup to run on any percentage of Ethanol whatsoever, and yet, it's impossible to escape at least 25% ethanol gas.

I say at least because, even though that's the legally required amount, gas stations will mix just about how much they feel like mixing and then charge whatever the fuck they feel like charging for their gut busting blends of crap.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > Gasolinelollipop 11/05/2013 at 18:01

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odd, we've never had problems starting after a whole winter, using whatever garbage gas we bothered to pick up. Every single lawn mower we've killed has gone out in the middle of ULTRA-SPEED-GRASS-GROWING season, much to the chagrin of our neighbors.

HammerheadFistpunch > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK 11/05/2013 at 18:03

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This comment (mine) has been removed to make room for expanded minds.

ddavidn > HammerheadFistpunch 11/05/2013 at 18:16

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I feel like I missed out on a whole thread on my own post...

ddavidn > BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion 11/05/2013 at 18:16

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Sounds horrible :(

HammerheadFistpunch > ddavidn 11/05/2013 at 18:17

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just the usual:

"But octane"

"But nothing!"

exchange. I removed mine when he removed his, cause there is no need to immortalize shame, especially if knowledge was gained today. You don't go back when you level up.

ddavidn > vdub_nut: scooter snob 11/05/2013 at 18:18

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I'll post my results after a couple tanks. Mine only offers 92, so I'm good on octane.

I thought winter blend was worse?

Not necessarily expecting a huge mileage jump, just want to take care of my engine. Also pretty happy to support a local, independent gas station instead of always using Shell/Costco.

davedave1111 > vdub_nut: scooter snob 11/05/2013 at 18:19

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People still cut their own grass in the US? Isn't it cheaper to pay someone else to cut it than to own a mower, even if you don't factor in the cost of your own time?

ddavidn > HammerheadFistpunch 11/05/2013 at 18:19

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Wait, why would octane change? Or maybe that was the erroneous point.

It's nice that you removed yours, though.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > ddavidn 11/05/2013 at 18:22

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Ahh, lucky. And yes, winter blend is worse for mileage (plus, the cold air makes you suck down marginally more fuel). Both "e0" and "e5/10/15" have winter blends. Good on you, supporting the local bees-knees-man.

davedave1111 > ddavidn 11/05/2013 at 18:23

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The performance difference between ethanol-blend and regular is too small to notice unless you're doing very careful measurement. If you get someone else to fill the car up and not tell you what they put in, you won't be able to tell which it is in almost all cars. The actual performance difference is about 2-3%, I believe, and no-one has a butt-dyno accurate to better than +/- 10-20% or so.

ddavidn > vdub_nut: scooter snob 11/05/2013 at 18:24

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Looking forward to running my whole tank through (half costco half e-free) and filling up with e-free again tomorrow, which should last a week.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > davedave1111 11/05/2013 at 18:25

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It probably is, actually. I guess my dad just enjoys pissing away his money. Plus, I use it as exercise, so the time issue is moot, in all reality.

Honestly never thought about it like that.

ddavidn > davedave1111 11/05/2013 at 18:26

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By performance, do you mean power or efficiency, power, and engine life all together?

I'm not very edumacated on the subject.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > ddavidn 11/05/2013 at 18:26

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This makes me wonder if the store near me might actually have high-octane e-free. You know what? I'm gonna drive there and find out.

Some time.

That I'm home from school.

And need gas.

(yes, I realize there are e-free locator websites, it's not listed on any that I've found.)

ddavidn > davedave1111 11/05/2013 at 18:27

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Not where I live. When my gas mower (came with the house) dies, I'm getting a manual push mower. I don't have enough lawn to warrant using gas.

ddavidn > vdub_nut: scooter snob 11/05/2013 at 18:28

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Typically, I only hear of places that have one rating e-free. I'm just lucky that mine has 92. Probably could call them and ask.

deekster_caddy > Gasolinelollipop 11/05/2013 at 18:38

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I put Sta-Bil in every yard gas-can fill-up. All of my yard things start right up every season. I don't even have to drain them, I just shut em off and they start back up when I pull the handle next season. I'm in MA where ethanol free gas was outlawed.

davedave1111 > vdub_nut: scooter snob 11/05/2013 at 18:47

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I was thinking as I wrote that 'apart from people who enjoy it'.

I probably spend a bit too much time thinking about things like this, but it surprised me because it is (or I would expect it to be) an example of an economic concept in action: the US is known for having longer paid-work hours than other rich economies, but to compensate by spending the money on time-saving when it comes to unpaid work - like washing yourself, your clothes, and your dishes, mowing the lawn, and so-on.

It's Adam Smith's division-and-specialisation-of-labour in action, for classical economists. You go to work, doing the things you're good at, and spend the money on someone who puts all their effort into working out how best to cut lawns; your total time worked to achieve the same result ought to be less.

davedave1111 > ddavidn 11/05/2013 at 18:54

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I was only talking about power and fuel mileage. Some people have suggested ethanol can rot some rubber/plastic fittings on some engines, but that's a different matter - I suspect it's FUD for the most part, but I don't know enough to say for sure.

All I was trying to say is that the placebo effect is going to be powerful enough to drown out any small difference in performance that there may be. We're astonishingly good at kidding ourselves.

If you want to test it out properly, get a friend to go fill up for you and not tell you which they put in - they can flip a coin or something. If they're honest, you can even get them to give you the extra cash back if it turns out to have been the regular stuff :)

davedave1111 > ddavidn 11/05/2013 at 18:56

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Oh yeah, that's another exception - no point getting someone to come by for a really small patch unless you can group up with your neighbours.

I already wrote a reply to vdub with more detail than needed on why this is interesting to me, if you care, so I won't repeat it :)

ddavidn > davedave1111 11/05/2013 at 19:01

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If there's a chance I can spend pennies to possibly extend the life of my car right now, I'll do it. There's no way I would notice anything less than a 10-15% difference in power, efficiency or maintenance with the way my car varies every time I jump in. I would notice, however, if it got more consistent or if it had less trouble in the morning. Placebo effect is just fine with me too. I also like shopping independent when I can, so I would probably buy that gas at the same price even if it wasn't e-free. I do wish I was a scientist and could know for sure if it would make a difference...

davedave1111 > ddavidn 11/05/2013 at 19:12

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From what I understand, when it comes to engine-life issues it's a case of either your engine is absolutely fine and unaffected, or it's one with parts that'll perish and you will have a problem, guaranteed - similar to how cars designed for leaded petrol have problems with unleaded, but cars built for it are fine. It's supposedly only plastic/rubber that are affected.

If it's just the placebo effect you're after, get a friend to fill up for you. Give them enough money to put the 'good stuff' in one time in three, but not tell you which time. You'll save two-thirds of the difference :)

Personally, I've given up on supporting independent petrol stations after a couple of bad experiences with the only two I know. Both had an attitude of 'we're independent, so you can get worse service, pay us more for the privilege, and like it'.

Oh, I forgot one. This place is quite cool, but I've never used it because they charge about 20p a litre - about $1.20 per US gallon - more than everyone else just because they have a nice-looking old garage in an expensive holiday town. Clearly an old streetview image with those prices on display.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > davedave1111 11/05/2013 at 19:20

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Are... Are you telling me there's someone I could PAY to shower me and assemble my jeans-and-t-shirt-du-jour, for less than the paid-time-equivalent of me doing it myself?

I'm drunk enough to want this. Badly.

davedave1111 > vdub_nut: scooter snob 11/05/2013 at 19:44

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Hah. Come to think of it, there is. A very strange friend of mine once claimed that his dream holiday was in a care home for people with Alzheimer's, because 'you wouldn't even need to get up and go to the toilet, you could just crap your pants and they'd clean you up'.

But I was thinking of stuff more like washing machines and ready meals than a carer/wife...

Gasolinelollipop > deekster_caddy 11/05/2013 at 22:01

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I don't use sta-bil since in Texas mowing the yard is mostly a year long thing. I was experiencing issues, I believe, with the ethanol fuel sitting for a week or two.

Gasolinelollipop > davedave1111 11/05/2013 at 22:04

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Shit, I enjoy taking care of my lawn! I could pay someone but they'd probably screw it up.

Gasolinelollipop > vdub_nut: scooter snob 11/05/2013 at 22:06

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Maybe my mower is on its way out. I know it works fine without the ethanol. When I do use the ethanol fuel it takes a long time to get everything working right.

deekster_caddy > Gasolinelollipop 11/05/2013 at 22:18

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Ah - Texas. Maybe the heat and humidity have something to do with it. I haven't had a lot of trouble with E-10 up to a couple months old without fuel stabilizer, but I'm in Massachusetts. I imagine the weather has something to do with it.

Gas cap seals up pretty good on the mower?