What Dealerships Could Learn From Baby Stores

"Tom McParland" (tommcparland) 11/01/2013 at 11:13 • Filed to: Customer Service, Car-buying, automatch consulting, articles

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Recently I had to purchase a new stroller for my son. The buying experience, was surprisingly pleasant. So much so that I think some car dealerships could learn a thing or two. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He was right, and it doesn't matter if you buy a car or a stroller. Here is how it all went down.

First we had to decide which one we wanted. My wife, being the librarian, read about a thousand reviews, watched numerous YouTube demo videos, and priced compared practically every angle possible. However, we both knew that a good stroller, like a good car, is more than just the spec sheet. We had to go for a “test-drive.” Our local stores did not carry the higher-end models that we were interested in so we called a store about an hour away.

I called BuyBuyBaby in Cherry Hill, NJ and spoke with “Tommy.” He asked what I was interested in and I told him the brand and model. He then said “We have a floor model for you to demo, in terms of colors we have two black, two blue, and a few pink. The price is $219, if you can find a better price online for the same one we will match it.”

Let’s compare this exchange with a Mercedes dealership that I spoke to once who refused to give me a price quote over the phone or via email. They assured me that when my client arrived at the dealership they would get the “best price, with no games.” When I told them that my client would be driving over an hour and that they would like a price in writing before arriving, the manager’s response was “We don’t do business that way.” Needless to say, they lost the sale.

When we arrived at the store I found Tommy and he already had the stroller in easy access for us along with comparable models from other brands. Keep in mind this place probably carries at least 50 different strollers from various brands across all price-points. Tommy’s product knowledge was astounding. He demonstrated the collapse and assembly of each stroller ran through the pros/cons, gave us the improvement over last years model, and was shockingly honest. We know that no product is perfect, but when my wife expressed a concern about a specific feature, Tommy did not do the “typical salesperson” move of minimizing the customer’s critique, but rather said, “Yeah you are correct, a lot of parents are worried about that. But what you should do is put you son in there and walk around the store awhile; I’ll be here until 9 so take your time. You really got to test them out, and don’t be shy about it. If something doesn't feel right now, it is not going to feel right in a year.”

When Tommy recognized our valid critique I was immediately reminded of a VW dealer who had an unforgettable response when I asked about drum-brakes on a 24k Jetta. He said “Oh man, they are the newest thing. All the car-makers are moving to drums in the rear.” When I asked why all the Audis on their lot still had four-wheel-discs, he just dug the hole deeper. “Oh yeah, well they haven’t been updated yet.” Wow dude...just wow.

After trying out our first choice, we then inquired about similar style stroller up high on the display that was a little more expensive. Tommy said, “There is a reason I don’t put that one down low, I get too many returns. Parents like it for a week and bring it back. You are better off with a much less expensive model.”

Just for fun, go to a dealership looking at one car and inquire about a more expensive model and see if they talk you out of it.

We finally narrow it down to two strollers, both pretty much identical in specs and each has a feature the other does not. So we are really splitting hairs at this point. However one stroller is about $50 more. That is when Tommy says “Now you can’t use our store coupons on the one you asked about first. It is just part of the agreement with the manufacturer, however this other one you can use the store coupon so that will equalize the price.” We told him we did not have a store coupon. “Don’t worry if you can find a competitors coupon, we will use that. If you really want the other stroller we will find away to get you the discount.”

You mean you are going to go out of your way to save us money and make sure we get the right product for our needs?

When it was all said and done we did ended up buying our original choice, but we felt confident in our purchase. We felt this way because a friendly, and extremely knowledgeable salesperson seemed genuinely concerned about getting us the right stroller. You see, Tommy’s paycheck wouldn't change whether or not we bought a $50 stroller or a $500 stroller that night. And I will also venture to guess that Tommy’s paycheck is not even close to what many on the sales-floor make.

O.k. so this is apples and oranges, there is no way buying a $220 stroller and a $22,000 car can even be compared. But what if an automaker decided to employ well paid, knowledgeable, and passionate employees whose objective was to inform and educate you, not see how much they can take from your wallet. If only there was some alternate universe where such a car-buying model was possible.

I would just like to add that I have encountered several sales-people who operate the same way as Tommy. They are friendly, professional, knowledgeable, and will do whatever it takes to make the customer happy. But these are the exceptions and not the rule. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! BuyBuyBaby understands that good relationships equal long-term profits , I will gladly tell other parents to take the drive and talk to Tommy when they need a stroller.

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Thanks for reading and a special thanks to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for making the lead image!

My name is Tom and I run !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! I am a professional car-buying consultant, which means people pay me to help them select the right car (NO YOU CAN'T HAVE A PRIUS) and negotiate with the dealerships to get them the best price. If you have any other questions or suggestions for future posts about the car-buying process please let me know. You can find some of my other posts on car-buying !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

You can also find me !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 10:24

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Excellent.

I'd venture that the issues you have pointed out about car dealerships, also pervade nearly all of Corporate America.

Customers are not people. They are wallets. The People are shareholders and management.

That you found it so refreshing to encounter "Tommy" really speaks to how shamefully, blatantly greedy our Corporate Overlords really are.

This near-sighted, short-term profit above all else will only destroy us. It's already having an effect.

Meatcoma > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 10:26

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Good read and I agree with you on most everything.

Tom McParland > Meatcoma 11/01/2013 at 10:27

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Just curious...what do you not agree on? Not looking for a fight, but to rather learn something I might not have thought about.

BJ > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 10:28

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Buying baby equipment (strollers, car seats, etc) from specialty baby shops definitely ranks at the top of the list for great customer service experiences.

The major difference between this, and car buying, you touched on near the end:

You see, Tommy’s paycheck wouldn't change whether or not we bought a $50 stroller or a $500 stroller that night. And I will also venture to guess that Tommy’s paycheck is not even close to what many on the sales-floor make.

Salespeople on commission are under a lot of pressure to (a) meet sales quotas and dealer-specified pricing guidelines and (b) get a paycheque that will feed the family. Even if you're a nice person who genuinely wants to help others, you also really want to have a job and pay your bills... it can't be easy to find balance when you're in that position.

Jayhawk Jake > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 10:28

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It's a difference in commission/sales based performance rather than a flat hourly pay.

I worked at an Apple Store for a while, and while we had sales targets, they were store targets, not personal ones. We were paid an hourly rate and that was it, the culture at the store was to sell people the computers that best fit their needs, regardless of price or what model was new or outgoing or any of the typical salesperson pratfalls.

People loved the Apple Store, and I loved working there largely because of this culture. In the automotive world, Suzuki had a similar model and it worked fantastically. When I was shopping for a car 2 years ago, Suzuki was one of the best dealerships because they didn't earn commissions, they weren't hung up on forcing a sale, they didn't have weird pricing schemes. They had a fair price on the car and nice salespeople who wanted to get you in the right car for you.

I've never worked at a dealership, but it seems like their model is kinda screwed up. Too focused on money rather than the customer. If they would just give a fair price on the cars and employ salespeople who are there to make the customer happy, not sell the most cars, things would be much, much better.

Tom McParland > BJ 11/01/2013 at 10:30

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Simple solution...do what Tesla does, pay their salespeople an good living wage, make them educated and passionate.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 10:37

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I'll tell you what brings out the worst salesmen in the business, cars under $3,000. You know there not going to make a lot on them, so you thing they'll at-least be honest with you.

But, no, it's like the red T-bird I drove an hour out of my way to go look at. The dealer advertised it as a good car with the following problems: the clear coat was shot, the head liner was saggy, and the radio didn't work. In reality, it was all that along with: a melty steering wheel, the blower motor was dead, and the suspension had some very noticeable clunking. They let me see it up on a lift, but I had to fight them to do so. Turned out, all of the suspension bushings were shot. I asked them for an estimate on how much that would cost to repair, and the figure they returned with was insane, and the service guy told me that was the reason why it was traded in. So, I asked for the price to be reduced by a lot to compensate. They only budged by $100. Needless to say I left and never came back.

Tom McParland > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 11/01/2013 at 10:39

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And that is one of the many reasons why I refuse to consult on cars under 15k

BJ > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 10:40

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You're right. But it can't always easy to find salespeople who are passionate about the brand, knowledgeable (or at least, smart enough to learn), customer-oriented/people-friendly and willing to work for a set wage - even if it's a good wage - when they know they could potentially make a lot more money on commission.

And of course, the dealer needs to be willing to pay those people a set wage in the first place. If there's no money flowing in, it's not easy to let it flow out: "You didn't sell any cars for the past two weeks? No problem, here's a wad of cash anyways!"

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 10:41

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They're going to make that 1 cent profit even if it kills them. Bastards.

Tom McParland > BJ 11/01/2013 at 10:42

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Yeah it is a chicken and egg conundrum, as of now the turnover rate at many dealerships is high, mostly due to their pay model. High turnover usually results in uninformed staff and poor customer service. I wonder what the retention rates are at the Tesla stores?

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BJ 11/01/2013 at 10:51

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I just wanted to chime in here.

Lexus has something very close to ideal implemented already. I work for a Lexus dealership, on the sales team, but I do not sell cars.

My official title is Product Specialist, and I am here to help teach people how to use all the technology in their new/pre-owned Lexus vehicles.

I do get a commission for each "delivery," but I also get a decent hourly rate, 40 hours a week, benefits, etc. I doubt I make as much as the sales staff on straight commission, but I very much enjoy helping people and not having to be worried about making enough if we are slow.

I can honestly say I enjoy this job more than any of the others I ever had.

Jared > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 11:13

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As a car salesman, I am very much like what you described in the BuyBuy Baby guy.

But then again, when I started selling cars 5 years ago, I made it my thing to try to be the complete opposite of everything I hate in car salespeople. My motto is "don't be a douche". It has worked out startingly well for me- who'da thunk?

Just wear your damn mask... > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 11:16

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The drum brakes story is funny.

BJ > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 11/01/2013 at 11:20

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Sounds like a nice job, and no pressure either because you're part of the after-sales experience, right?

Mustafaluigi > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 11:25

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Best car buying experience I ever had was when I went to look at a 2013 WRX. I went there, told the guy what I wanted, said I know what he has on the lot and I am interested in these two vehicles. He said this is the price for each one, it is $400 dollars above this price(invoice I believe), any lower and I loose commission. If you find a better price somewhere else then buy it. He was so cut and dry and to the point. No bullshit just here is the best price from the start and no we will not go lower. Even though I didn't buy from him because I found a car for about the same price but more what I wanted from another dealer closer to me, he was by far one of the best salesmen I ever had to deal with. No back and forth, he flat out said he sells enough cars that he beats his quota every month. He knew he didn't have to sell me a car to make it by, and he knew I didn't have to buy it from him.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BJ 11/01/2013 at 11:32

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Yup.

I don't have to talk about money at all. They've already bought their car, so everything I do is fun and friendly.

It also helps retain customers. Since I am generally the last one they're with, even when the sales staff stop back to say goodbye, people have a pleasant recollection of their car-buying experience and are want to shop with us again.

I also zero interest about moving into sales. I hate, loathe, despise, deplore, etc the typical sales experience. I do not want to be bullied. Inform me, and I will make the decision.

Daddio > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 11:36

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I've heard of very good experiences with CarMax, where they have many different brands to sell and don't have to pressure you into their only option for a given class. And where the prices are non-negotiable.

Brewman15 > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 11:37

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I never thought I'd say this, but I love BuyBuyBaby. We had a very similar experience as you when buying a convertible car seat. The guy we dealt with was extremely knowledgeable and helped us decide between the two car seats we were interested.

We also lucked out by having a very similar experience when we bought the Accord Sport for my wife. The salesman was knowledgeable, friendly, and most importantly no non-sense. I'd buy another car from him in a second.

Poofables > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 11:41

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Being an automotive sales consultant myself, I have found that taking the customer service route works better for me personally. Sometimes someone needs a little encouragement to make the commitment in the end, but I view my job as helping my customers find the right vehicle to fit their needs and wants. Sometimes, that vehicle may not even be one that I carry even though I have four brands here.

My customers usually leave very happy regardless of if they buy from me or not. I have even gotten referrals from people who did not buy from me.

To me it just makes sense to treat someone how you would want to be treated. I change things up a bit to suite each customer to the best of my ability, but the idea is still the same regardless of who I am working with. It works for me, I am consistently one of the top sales people in our auto group, and even though I have only been doing this for just over a year, repeat and referral customers already account for a decent portion of my business.

There are some people though, who are so used to going into the dealership and fighting the salesperson that no matter how much I try to help them, and how much I try to help them, they will only continue to fight me more and more. I feel sorry for these people.

I think that if more dealerships went to this mindset, over time consumer perception of the auto industry would change. Customers would be happier and sales people would be less stressed and make more money. Happy customers always spend the most.

Nibby > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 11:45

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Obligatory.

CB22 > Mustafaluigi 11/01/2013 at 11:46

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Sounds like that guy could be beating his quota by even more if he wasn't such a dick.

Buckus > Jayhawk Jake 11/01/2013 at 11:54

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To be fair, at Suzuki, it's not like they had 20 models to push you into.

MILK > Mustafaluigi 11/01/2013 at 11:56

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I've never understood why a sales guy would tell me how much commission he is making if I take his offer. I've never bought from a Subie dealer but usually when I say "Ok would it kill you to only be making $200?" they come around.

Jayhawk Jake > Buckus 11/01/2013 at 12:00

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True, but they still could have upsold a Kizashi over an SX4, or tried to get me to buy a Vitara when all I needed was an SX4.

Tom McParland > Poofables 11/01/2013 at 12:06

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So by "sales consultant" you work on the floor. I am a little different, people pay me to find cars for them and negotiate on their behalf. Hey shoot me a note, we may be able to work together in the future-

automatchconsulting@gmail.com

Satish Kondapavulur > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 11/01/2013 at 12:08

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You're absolutely right. I once tried to test drive a Dodge Dart and had the worst experience of my life because CDJR dealers just can't bother with selling low margin cars.

desertdog5051 > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 12:09

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That story about the drum brakes kills me. Even a non car person probably knows that disc is superior. Unbelievable.

Satish Kondapavulur > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 12:09

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Haven't you found any internet sales managers that'll give you a fair flat rate on the low-margin cars? Usually, they should be a lot more forthcoming than the guys on the floor.

icehawks11 > Mustafaluigi 11/01/2013 at 12:10

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How well does the WRX hatchback baby? Thinking this may be next in my garage stall

Tom McParland > Satish Kondapavulur 11/01/2013 at 12:11

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You know I haven't looked, considering my fees most folks aren't going to pay me 300-500 to shop a 15k car.

lingenfelter > Mustafaluigi 11/01/2013 at 12:14

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I never bought from Subie, but I have taken a few serious looks and the salesman is always very cut and dry, but still friendly - and extremely knowledgeable and willing to admit it when he didn't know the answer to a question. These are all good qualities and would have made a sale if I had decided to replace my car (which I didn't).

My Scion experience was the polar opposite: pushy, upselling, even jumped in the back of a TC with my pregnant wife and I and strictly directed our (very short) test drive, as if we were only there to hoon a coupe about town.

The Chev dealer was a little pushy, trying to get a sale out of us without even having taken a test drive yet (the model we wanted was in the showroom but not out on the lot), but nowhere near as bad, or imposing, as the Scion salesman. To boot, the Scion salesman was also the Scion brand manager at that dealership.

Satish Kondapavulur > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 12:17

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I guess you could make it a $200 flat rate as long as the owner is paying fully in cash. But then the financing is usually tougher. I can understand now. Really not worth your time when dealing with financing those cars.

AndrewH > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 12:18

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I find your story to be really funny and true, especially the drum brakes part. My mother is in the market at the moment for a new car, and I went with my father at a local ford dealer (europe) and they had 3 cars on display, one of witch was a Fiesta with a 1.0 NA 3 cylinder, and the salesman was trying to explain how this engine is identical to the ecoboost one, just that it doesn't have the turbo on it and that it's actually better because it gets better fuel consumption. I was trying to explain to him that this engine is just too small for such a heavy car as the Fiesta has become, and also that I don't trust 3 cylinders because I know far too many people personaly who had problems with them, but he just kept going on and on...that it still pulls ok, that it's fast enough, etc. In the end we left, just because he kept pushing that car without showing us other options for other engines, or at least offer a test drive to prove it was what he said it was. There also was a B-Max there with the actual 1.0 ecoboost on it, he didn't even think about suggesting that we look at that one when we said that it does have some unpractical aspects.

Daddio > Daddio 11/01/2013 at 12:22

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I usually buy new cars, and am willing to suffer the process of testing several and negotiating a deal. Online quoting has made it easier. I've also heard that Carmax prices are inflated (and I know their offer on my old car was a real lowball). But for someone who wants a positive experience and is willing to leave a little on the table in order to not get jerked around...

vr6geek > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 12:23

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The whole commission aspect is what has always made me avoid car salesmen positions. I'd always stick people in a model year closeout or show them a cheaper option that does exactly what they want it to. Hell, I'd probably steer most customers towards used options on the lot with low mileage and existing warranties. Or if they're just looking for a point A to point B vehicle that looks nice, I'd just point them to the nearest Kia dealership. And then I'd get fired.

Jeb_Hoge > Daddio 11/01/2013 at 12:28

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Yeah, you've basically nailed the CarMax experience. I worked there for a while. I had a pretty simple comeback for people who were negative on our prices and said they could get the same car for less down the street. I'd invite them to go see. We were taught how to tell them to look for other dealers' pricing games and if they wanted to not have to deal with that, to come on back. I even had one woman tell me that she liked to haggle (this was while I was off work) and I said she'd probably be better off at some other dealer.

But for every one of those, I saw a dozen people who loved shopping CarMax and didn't sweat pricing all that much.

vr6geek > vr6geek 11/01/2013 at 12:31

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Also I had a similar experience with a mk6 Jetta where the salesman told me it had a 2.5 6 cylinder, not a 2.5 5 cylinder. How do you not know the cars you are selling, guys? There's just no passion for the brand with most salespeople, and it's probably due to poor working conditions and the stress of commission. Does a salesperson really want to go home and spend another hour of their day doing research on their dealership's vehicles and competing brands? Probably not.

Tom McParland > vr6geek 11/01/2013 at 12:34

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I think you might enjoy this.

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flat6 > Poofables 11/01/2013 at 12:38

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i'm an internet sales consultant, and I approach my job the same way. selling cars these days is more about providing good service rather than forcing people into a purchase, or trying to sell them on something they don't actually want or need. if you have good product knowledge and are friendly and respectful, it's a lot easier to make a sale. plus happy customers leads to more business in the future.

dntmindme > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 12:39

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If the manufacturer actually paid the sales people a set percent of the total sale price instead of making the dealership come up with a pay plan based on profit only this would help the car buying experience tremendously. For example if they paid a flat rate of say 2% of the total sale price @ $30k sale price thats $600 for the salesperson and if they have to discount $1k off price they are only losing out on $20. As opposed to the dealer pay plan in which a $1,000 discount results in the sales person losing out on $200. Typical pay for a car salesperson at a new/used car dealer is 20% of any profits, with a minimum of $75 (which is what about 80% of all new car sales result in these days)

Jonathan Woodall > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 12:40

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I work at a Fiat studio as a salesman and I totally agree with most of the article. Being honest, helpful, and passionate is extremely important and those are honestly the only aspects of selling cars that I'm somewhat good at lol

One thing I think should be said, however, is that people approach buying a car and buying a stroller in massively different ways so the two have to deal with remarkably different customers and situations. At least a few times a month, I'll have a customer that WILL NOT buy a car unless they KNOW we are losing money on the deal. It's like a game to people, they want to "win" at buying a car. And instead of online stores that just sell for cheap prices, you're competing with other dealerships that run shady advertising campaigns. "You can lease a car for $50 a month! (fine print: that's if we were going to take 90% of the cost off, but we're not, also it doesn't include taxes, an $800 paint protection package which is just us washing the car or our exorbitant dealer fees)" I literally had someone balk at me a couple weeks ago when we told him a $25,000 car was going to have a $300-ish payment and say, "That's a rip-off, I can get a new Jag for less than $200!" Right...

I wish you could just offer a good product at a fair price and leave it like that but both dealers and customers have gotten so out of control that it's going to be hard to get back to that.

Tom McParland > Jonathan Woodall 11/01/2013 at 12:51

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Yeah it is a chicken and egg problem...but Tesla seems to find a way that works. Pay your employees well to educate the customer and help them get the best vehicle...then have the customer buy direct from manufacturer and take out all the games. As a buyer's consultant, I do my best so that it is a win-win for all parties, the dealer sells the car at a discount but still makes a little for themselves and my customer gets a car at a good price with no hassle. Hey shoot me a line, maybe we can work together sometime. :)

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Automatchconsulting@gmail.com

Buran > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 12:54

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And then, if you're Tesla, you watch as the supposedly-free-market-loving Republicans start trying to dismantle you because you're trying to change things for the better and they think that being bent over by dealerships is such a great idea because they think bending people over and telling them what they get is what they should want is such a great idea.

Tom McParland > Buran 11/01/2013 at 12:55

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Yeah don't get me started on that "free-market" hypocritical BS.

FurySamurai72 > BJ 11/01/2013 at 12:55

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I just bought (OK, we leased it, but the experience in the dealership is more or less unchanged) a brand new 2013 Mazda 3. The Mazda dealership we went to (in Wellesley, MA) does not pay their sales people commision. They do get a bonus for every car they sell, but they get the same bonus regardless of how much the sale is for. So they make the same on a sale of a completely optioned upmazdaspeed3 as they do on a mazda 3 SV.

The salesman was knowledgable and passionate about the brand. And he ended up coming down about $40/mo from the original offer. It was a fantastic experience and I will most certainly go back for our next vehicle (the wife wants a CX-5)

BJ > FurySamurai72 11/01/2013 at 12:57

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I wonder how many other dealers out there work this way? It seems like the "right" thing to do...

Tom McParland > dntmindme 11/01/2013 at 12:59

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Now that is just crazy talk. :P

Buran > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 13:00

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As for VWs with drum brakes... VW is actually going back to disc brakes. While there's nothing wrong with drum brakes, disc brakes do perform a bit better and car buyers do tend to know enough about cars that they will reject the "better this way" argument.

Our 2012 TDI has discs, the 2012 GLI and SEL had discs, and now I believe the entire lineup is going back to discs this year. That experiment didn't work out well for VW.

Do drums really cost that much less to make, install, and maintain for the first three years? I doubt it.

I wouldn't blame VW for the idiotic uniformed salesman, though. I blame the salesman and the poor training he likely received from management.

I know firsthand how hard it is to step forward and say "I don't know" when confronted with a question — it's gotten me in hot water personally in the past when I fell into that hole. It's better to admit that and be honest and say "I can't fix this now but I can go find out and get back to you" than it is to try and BS your way through. It didn't work for me, and it didn't work for that salesguy. (Disclaimer, though: I am not a car saleswoman. It's a general life principle). The pressure on you to not look bad is immense and it comes from both your own ego and from others who have reasons to want you to not look bad. It's all too quick and easy to make the on-the-spot decision to try the BS and hope it works and the rational side that says "Nuh-uh, this is going to make it worse" is ignored.

Only when we go through that experience and the terrible consequences of being caught do we stop being foolish. In my case, I never lived it down at that position and wound up leaving it for a fresh start elsewhere, where I'm doing much better and don't have that reputation following me anymore.

Tom McParland > Buran 11/01/2013 at 13:03

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Yeah that guy was a total moron...my answer to him was "Dude, that was the wrong answer, the right answer is the front brakes do 80-90 of the braking so most drivers won't notice."

elamino > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 13:04

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Coming from myself, a car salesman:
If all customers were like you and your wife, the car buying experience would resemble the stroller buying experience more often than not. But even in the internet age, many people don't do their research still. You went to the store knowing what you wanted, and you just had to "test drive" it to confirm your research. People arrive at my dealership not knowing if they want a SUV or car. They want to compare KIAs with Acuras. They think that monthly payments should not be dependent on how much money they are financing.

Occasionally, I will have an intelligent buyer come in, tell me how much research they've done, test drive the car, show us the quotes they've received, then we beat it and they drive off. Overall, the experience takes 2-3 hours and they leave with a great deal on a car that will fit them perfectly.

The major problem that affects the car industry is flexible pricing. The customers say the dealerships are the problem, and the dealerships say the customers are the problem. You don't go into the supermarket haggling over the price of milk. You don't go buy a stroller that is on sale and haggle over the price. Yet people go into dealerships every day and bitch and moan about the price of a car. Even after doing research and getting thousands of dollars off of the MSRP, people still ask what we can do for them. There's normally 10% of the MSRP in profit in new cars. Yet people will throw down hundreds of dollars in profit for phones and tablets without an moment of hesitation, even when you know it costs them maybe 30% of the sales price to produce that product.

Complaining about a dumb salesman who doesn't know his product or the market is one thing, but every single person buying a car wasn't trying to get the best deal ever recorded for that new car, then the dealerships would be a lot less hostile.

Mustafaluigi > CB22 11/01/2013 at 13:10

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How was he a dick? There was no hassle of going back and forth with him, no muddling the numbers to try and squeak some more profit, just this is the price and that's the best we can do, he even pointed out that there was no dealer processing fee that a lot of places like to yank another $400 bucks out my pocket and warned me that if I found a lower price make sure that was not going to be tacked on after the fact. Nothing is more annoying than when they say this is the best price, then you press them to go lower and all of a sudden their manager magically finds some more money to take off it. This guy came right out gave a good price and said that was the lowest it will go.

Buran > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 13:11

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Did he have a deer-in-headlights look when he realized that he couldn't BS this customer?

Mustafaluigi > icehawks11 11/01/2013 at 13:12

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Not a hatch, not a fan of hatches but as a sedan it should baby decently. Rear doors open pretty wide to get a seat and/or kid in. Its a hard ride and is not as quiet as other cars so there might be some waking up baby crying in the back seat. But it has great crash test ratings and is as fun as I always hoped it would be, so there is that. EDIT: Also remembered that the hatch does have a different exhaust setup, and maybe its only with aftermarket but it may drone a bit more than the sedan.

Tom McParland > elamino 11/01/2013 at 13:12

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Yeah there needs to be a balance...that is why I am wondering if cars were sold like other products if things would change.

O.k. that was silly but there is some truth to it. On a side note, I am a car-buying consultant. I help people figure out what to buy (so they are not comparing new Kias and new Acuras) and negotiate the best deal. Drop me a line, maybe we can work together sometime. Automatchconsulting@gmail.com

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Tom McParland > Buran 11/01/2013 at 13:14

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Yeah I will admit I love the look on their face once they realize they are totally outclassed. The smart ones will pass me on to the sales-manager the dumb ones will keep digging the hole until I leave.

protodad > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 13:31

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I have the feeling we were looking at the exact same two strollers. Buy buy baby is a great store (owned by bed bath and beyond) and was designed around that customer service model. The one in Valencia is filled with knowledgable sales associates and we had the exact same experience. They literally gave us the website for the coupon and scanned it off my wife's phone.
The empire of dealership bureaucracy would explode if they operated like this

qqwweerrttyy > MILK 11/01/2013 at 13:40

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Because that $400 over invoice means he makes his minimum commission ($75, I think). If he goes below that, he makes nothing.

Yes, the dealerships even screw over their own employees like that.

The Real Unsharer > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 13:41

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I used to work at Best Buy and was consistently one of the top sellers in the computers / cameras / mp3 players department (as were my trainees). Why, you ask? Because I didn't treat my customers are walking dollar signs — I treated them as people I was trying to help. It's no surprise that when people trust you, they buy from you.

A salesperson recently lost out on my business when he and his manager kept trying to convince me to buy that day with a bad price (this dealer was one of the best-rated in the area). He was lying about the invoice price, etc., and wouldn't let me leave (I had an important doctor's visit I had to leave for). I wound up buying from another dealer for over $1k less, all because I was treated poorly and as a walking dollar sign.

icehawks11 > Mustafaluigi 11/01/2013 at 13:57

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All of that is good to know. Not a whole lot out there on how well the WRX babies. I bet I would've never known about the doors opening wider on the sedan, or about the drone, so kudos for you! I've got a few years until the little ones start popping out, but I just want to know which cars work well before I get to that point and realize that my car won't do the job

Malforus > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 13:59

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Carmax I think does this and Carsense definitely does. Changes the whole paradigm when they are more interested in happy customers than high pressure sales.

Tom McParland > Malforus 11/01/2013 at 14:01

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But they only sell used cars...and while they are "no hassle" they are not always the cheapest. I've brokered deals where I used CarMax's advertised price as leverage against another dealer and the dealer beat them. Carmax/Carsense sell cars at a fair price but not always the best one.

Jumbojeepman > elamino 11/01/2013 at 14:10

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Actually, people do haggle on the prices of everything else, it's just done in a different way. Instead of directly haggling with the merchant, we go online and shop or wait for a sale to buy that phone or TV. That's why Wal-mart and Amazon are putting many other stores out of business.

StevenG > elamino 11/01/2013 at 14:23

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I don't haggle for milk because I can get exactly what I want at a million stores. Getting the car you want can be a huge pain and the prices are often as clear as mud. Like the delivery charge BS, just add that to the price of the car if it is always charged. Dealers love to pull this what do you want to pay per month BS, that is why you have confused customers. How about you worry about financing after we settle on price.

The best thing that could happen to car buyers is if dealerships ceased to exist. Let every car maker do what TESLA does.

Malforus > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 14:24

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I didn't say best price, I said no hassle with good consumer experience.

If you want absolutely lowest price you will go to a car auction and then fix the problems out of pocket with a mechanic friend. But that isn't exactly a low stress buying affair.

Ultimately it is nice to have a multitude of purchasing options to match with those who want different shopping styles.

I got sick of used car salesmen because they never spoke to me directly. There was always "so who is helping you buy this?" "Are you sure this is what you want?" "I don't think you understand how we do this."
Look if I walk into a dealership with 18k in cash and a 740 credit score, my being 18 shouldn't give you the right to behave like a cock.

More than a decade later I find most interactions a waste of time when private sales and these used lots won't jerk you around from the first step on.

Mustafaluigi > icehawks11 11/01/2013 at 14:28

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Also I think the sedan puts forward a little less of a boy racer look than the hatch. For an adult parent, I would say sedan all the way. However if you plan on lugging around lots of stuff, like say a stroller. The trunk isnt the biggest and you may be limited depending on how its folds up.

Jonathan Woodall > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 14:47

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This is true, Tesla has found a great formula. The problem is, that formula isn't very applicable to many manufacturers. Using Chrysler/Fiat as an example. If they decided to adopt the Tesla dealership model, obviously the privately owned dealerships would be phased out. By phased out, I mean they would have their franchise taken away and left with nothing to sell, putting thousands of dealerships out of business overnight and many more thousands of people out of work. Without individual dealerships competing against each other and taking into account the massive cost of setting up Chrysler owned stores across the country in short enough order to take up the slack of the shut-down dealerships, prices would likely be higher. If not massively higher, at least enough for people to not be that interested in Chryslers. Why pay one set price for a Fiat/Chrysler product, when the Ford dealer down the road is advertising $5,000 off a new whatever model car? As sad as it sounds, it's shocking how people react to discounts and "getting a deal," which I'm sure you've seen. We see it in the way advertising is done all the time. We prefer to advertise the virtues of the cars and the ownership experience and enjoying driving in a fantastic car and how we're here for our customers long after they leave with their new cars for anything they may need. But, when you advertise that, the feedback is barely noticeable. Advertise a discount, though, and it has a much greater impact. And I think that's a large part of why the car industry doesn't want to change because the competition really does do a lot to drive sales. In the long run, if they all went to the Tesla model, it would be great but the first big manufacturer to do it will probably get slaughtered for several years until they all adopt it. It would be pretty bloody transition for the car industry, I think.

Tesla works because there isn't, effectively, any real competition. There are electric cars, but Tesla has the luxury and popularity to completely own the market. And they've had 10 years or so to gradually build their products and incrementally develop their distribution/store network.

Fiat, I'll say, was big on hiring people to work in their studios that were not "car sales" people, they wanted normal, passionate people, at least they were really pushing that in the beginning. Now, of course, there are a lot more Fiat studios and many are filled with salespeople from Chrysler dealers that don't know or really care that much about Fiats, which is a shame. Our Studio is really cool in that we're all Fiat nuts and trying really hard to get the brand out there and show people how cool they are.

m > Buran 11/01/2013 at 15:04

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"I wouldn't blame VW for the idiotic uniformed salesman, though. I blame the salesman and the poor training he likely received from management."

If they're putting their name/logo on his shirt, then they are responsible for making sure he's meeting their standards. They've endorsed him in the eyes of the customer.

Makoyouidiot > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 15:23

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Seems to me that a perfect solution is for all car salesmen everywhere to be required to read and follow jalopnik and oppo.

911c4s > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 15:40

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I sell for a car dealership and we are paid a fixed-commission; I get paid the same if I sell a $10000 entry-level car or a $150000 Porsche. That way I can focus on finding a vehicle that the customer likes rather than one that my paycheck likes. Customer service is the priority and it is prioritized by the entire management and dealership group. I am the top salesperson on the floor and I have numerous repeat customers and referrals (I have been in the business for 3 years so far) and most of the positive reviews about my dealership are about me. We have also been voted the best car dealership in our municipality by a local publication!

There are a lot of bad apples that work at car dealerships but not all of us are bad! Plus fixed-commission allows you to be nice and not push and still allows you to make an excellent living (I drive a 911). :)

CB22 > Mustafaluigi 11/01/2013 at 15:50

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Because most customers do not have your mentality/outlook and if he does that with all of his customers, he is surely losing sales- just like he lost your sale...

kent-skinner > elamino 11/01/2013 at 16:01

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"You don't go into the supermarket haggling over the price of milk. You don't go buy a stroller that is on sale and haggle over the price. Yet people go into dealerships every day and bitch and moan about the price of a car. Even after doing research and getting thousands of dollars off of the MSRP, people still ask what we can do for them."

That's a good point. However, from the car buyer's side of it, we have been lied to for so long that we simply don't believe you any more. Not you as a person, buy you as a profession.

I have walked out of car and moto dealerships three times, with cash (or financing) in hand because of lying, ignorant sales people. The dealerships lost sales because of dishonesty and lack of caring (really, $500 over MSRP on a 18 month old motorcycle with new models arriving that week?)

I wouldn't want to sell cars, or have any other retail job. But I have to say that your predecessors set you up to fail.

P.S. I found a great Subaru salesman, and my wide an I bought one 18 months ago. He was honest. Completely honest. If he didn't know the answer, he said so. He didn't make stuff up, or do a hard sell. His closer in the finance office was a complete twat.

Turbo-Brick > icehawks11 11/01/2013 at 16:21

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I test drove the sedan but ended up buying the STI hatch, and I feel like if anything, the hatch is quieter (though there was a 3 month period in-between test drive and delivery, so maybe I'm misremembering). It's actually so quiet that I'm considering a SPT or Cobb exhaust in the future so I can hear that distinctive boxer rumble.

Also, I believe the sedan and hatch are identical from the rear wheels forward, so I find it highly unlikely that the rear doors open wider on the sedan than the hatch.

And don't forget that the hatch is likely less to insure than the sedan.

Turbo-Brick > Mustafaluigi 11/01/2013 at 16:27

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We'll have to agree to disagree. I thought the giant wing on the back of the sedan was the epitome of 'boy racer'. On the other hand, unless you're looking hard at it and/or know what to look for, my hatch looks like any other small white wagon driving around. Even the cops don't give me a second glance...

And while I mentioned it before, I believe the difference in insurance premiums is not insignificant as well...

Buran > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 16:57

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Sadly, half the time it's the sales managers that are spewing the BS! That doesn't help things for the customer, either, most of the time. After all, sales people love the old "I have to talk to my manager" excuse to go twiddle their thumbs before they come back and say "Sorry, my manager is saying no to that deal."

I have zero trust of dealerships outside of the service department, and even some service departments try to sell extra "service" that you don't actually need.

Buran > m 11/01/2013 at 17:02

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Maybe. However, I don't think their standards say anywhere that salespeople should be jerks to customers. That I pin on the dealership management. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against placing blame on the ultimate employer, but I don't think this one is on them.

Buran > desertdog5051 11/01/2013 at 17:07

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Do they? Are they? Why? The front brakes do almost all the work and those are discs. Is it necessary to have drum brakes in the rear all the time? In what situations are discs necessary? Do most car buyers need discs?

No, they don't. The correct answer in this case is "VW felt it would cost less to build the car if they were built with drum brakes. Can you tell me about how you intend to use this car? We can figure out if you need one of the trim lines that have discs in the back as well, or whether you should wait until the next model year, when all Jettas will have rear discs."

TeamProBono > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 17:22

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I had the same experience with a running shoe salesperson at (ready?) Sports Authority. In fact, I had never met an athletic shoe salesperson as knowledgeable as he was. But here's what to look for in a car salesperson: they coo over your old car, tickling the front quarter panel, gently rubbing the dash, and saying how great it looks. You know, like a stroller salesperson does with a baby....

desertdog5051 > Buran 11/01/2013 at 17:24

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If drums were superior, or even close to the performance of a disc, they would still be using them on all cars. Drums require adjustment on a regular basis. Are prone to increased heat and fading and warping as a result of the heat. If you have ever changed brake shoes on a drum system, you know how much of a pain it is.

The only reason I can see for retaining drums is that many cars use a drum type of parking brake, which is often built into the backside of the rear rotors. That would make the cost a factor. Whereas with drums you just use the existing brake system for your parking brake.

elamino > StevenG 11/01/2013 at 17:26

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you buy the milk at the regular sale price. if everyone came into a car dealership and offered to buy the car at MSRP, you would have less problems. people don't want to do that. they want to buy a $50k sports car when they make $2k/month. people are stupid when it comes to car buying. they don't want a fair deal, they want the best deal ever, every time.

For instance, our MDX has been out for two months. The advance package (fully loaded) is in extremely short supply. We're talking one or two per dealership right now. Yet I just had some guy haggle down the price and have dealerships fight each other for his business. Low supply and high demand should equal higher prices, but not for this guy. Not for most buyers. They simply don't care and want to take advantage of it if they can. So most dealerships try to take advantage of the customers if they can.

if you consider the chicken and the egg, it was definitely the dealerships who started it first back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Then the customer fights back. Then the dealership tries to find a new way to make more money. and so on and so forth. It won't stop until everyone goes one-price. Saturn did it, and they went out of business. Scion is the closest we have to one-price outside of Tesla. I think they should all go this route.

People think we get paid insanely well, but if some guy comes in and haggles down to invoice or lower, then I get $200, and that's considered good right now. My last dealership was all about profit with no minimum. So I'd sell a car and not get paid. Toyota's minimum is $100/car. How am I supposed to provide for my family if I sell every car at invoice? If I have to decide between being paid enough to afford groceries for my family and getting you a good deal, I'm gonna get as much as I can from you.

Tom McParland > 911c4s 11/01/2013 at 19:16

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You sound like the type of guy I like to work with. Please drop me a line sometime, if I get a client in your area and the cars lineup, I'd love to do business together. Oh, this is me in case you didn't know. :)

AutomatchConsulting@gmail.com

BlueSoap > Tom McParland 11/01/2013 at 19:27

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When I purchased a Saturn SL1 in 2002 it was easy peasy. Gerry (sales guy) came out asked how I and my mom were,asked which vehicle we were interested in. I told him SL1,he did not try to persuade me to other vehicles,he went in the office got the demo key and we went for a test drive. After the test drive we went in and crunched numbers,I told him I have other vehicles I am looking at and will get back to him before the week is out. He was fine with that and wished me luck on whichever I purchased. Before the week was finished I called Gerry and said I am coming in to pick out an SL1,I went and sadly the last Maroon coloured car was sold 2 days prior. We walked out to the holding a lot,I picked the colour I wanted and then did paperwork. I picked the car up 2 days after.

I really dug the Saturn operated. No pressure,no haggle. I wanted automatic trans,AC,ABS. Gerry looked all over Canada Saturn lots,there was none,he then checked the U.S.A.,none. I could have waited but I needed a 'yesterday' kinda thing. The best I could do was automatic and AC. Oh and Saturn would give you a gift basket that was placed in the trunk upon pickup,I asked for a die-cast model SC2 instead,seeing as I did not know if I would use the gift basket products. Gerry told me he would see what he could do,in the end he came through and a shiny 1:18 die-cast SC2 was waiting in the trunk. The dealership sent me card a few months later congratulating on purchasing a Saturn.

Tom McParland > BlueSoap 11/01/2013 at 19:30

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And one of the best ideas GM ever had to radically change the dealership experience was killed. Well played GM...well played. :P

George McNally > Tom McParland 11/02/2013 at 01:11

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There was a reason my parents only bought Saturns...at least till the closed. They liked the no-dicker price. I'm still driving one they bought 14 years ago.

Gloff > qqwweerrttyy 11/02/2013 at 01:16

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You clearly have never worked in a dealership, or you live in a state with fucked up labor laws. You make a minimum commission on any car deal, even if it's a loss. Generally it's anywhere from $100-$200 per unit. Dealerships can screw their employees over, but not like that. I imagine this Subaru dealer has some kind of weird plan where they have a dual minimum. Sell at X over invoice and you get $200, below that you get $100.

I keep track of every deal I make, I've found discrepancies before due to Sales Manager mistakes, but they were always corrected and I was paid properly.

Gloff > Jayhawk Jake 11/02/2013 at 01:28

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The last thing I want to do as a salesperson is switch you to another car than the one you're interested in. The success rate when switching cars is very low. You come in looking for a Focus, I'm not going to try and upsell you a Fusion. If you come in looking at both, I'm going to target what suits your needs best based on asking you questions about what those needs are. I'm after units when selling new; I generally don't care what you buy. I make my GP on used cars. There's too much info on New cars. You know what I pay (not just invoice, but net net), you know what dealers have which cars with which options, and you know what kind of financing you can get. Usually people do a ton of research on new cars (last statistic I heard was something like 4-6 hrs per car total) and it's not in my best interest to switch you to a car you may or may not know about so you can go online and do more research.

Dunnik > Tom McParland 11/02/2013 at 01:30

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You've been on a roll of late, Automatch.

Erm, no pun intended.

Keep writing!

Gloff > Tom McParland 11/02/2013 at 02:33

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There are a few problems with the car business. I think Tesla has a good strategy, the direct to consumer model has proven a good one. The current car business won't change for many years, if ever. The dealers are not gonna just surrender to the manufacturer and give up their dealership so the consumer can feel all warm and fuzzy about buying direct. Tesla was in a unique position, they were a start-up. There were no dealers to contend with, they decided that direct was the way to go.

In order for dealers to go no-commission, all of them have to do it.You have to understand, most people say they hate negotiation, but don't want to pay more than they have to for a vehicle. For the dealer, going no-commission means getting shitty salespeople that don't care about gross profit. That means you have to have fixed pricing so everyone pays the same, and you're going to lose deals that way. It's a for-profit business, yes there is a line between profit and greed. I would argue, if you're dumb enough not to do some simple research, you deserve to pay more than everyone else.

It's simple, if your salesperson doesn't know the product, tell them to get someone who does. A salesperson with good product knowledge will be an easy person to deal with, as they are trying to build value, not shortstop the process of selling a car, i.e. "Just trying to make the deal"

Great salespeople know how to handle themselves, they don't need to play tricks to get the deal. Let me give you the process of selling a car properly.

KNOW YOUR FUCKING PRODUCT: Know the in's and out's of every vehicle on your lot. This shit doesn't happen overnight, so if you don't know the answer, write it down so you can address it later.

Meet and Greet: Greet the potential client with a smile and a handshake, exchange names and the like.

Needs Assessment: Find out what the potential client needs in a vehicle, 9 times out of 10, they already have an idea of what car they want, you're just trying to help narrow down the vehicle and options. Many times you need to ask the consumer questions about their daily lives so that you can suggest products that, get this, HELP THE CONSUMER EVERYDAY.

Product Selection: If you know your inventory and what the potential client needs in a vehicle, put the two together and explain to them why the car makes sense, which leads into:

Demonstration: Also known as a flower presentation, open all the doors, the hood, the trunk. Tailor your presentation to the potential client's needs. If they've selected the car for safety, show them the safety features like crumple zones, break-away engine mounts, X# of standard airbags, the safety ratings, the special safety features unique to your product. If they care about fuel economy, show them things that make the car aerodynamic or explain how the system works so you set the right expectation for how their driving style affects their fuel economy (esp. important on Hybrids and Turbo vehicles). Whatever is important. If a 20 something with no kids wants to check out a Camaro, do you really think they care about the LATCH system?

Test Drive: Go frickin drive the thing, let them enjoy the car, shut your damn mouth, only open it to answer questions. Let them know that you're going to do that ahead of time, so they don't feel awkward.

Write-Up: If you've done your job effectively, you should be on the correct car and the potential client should be confident in the vehicle choice they've made. Set up a trial close, this is really up to you, and depends on your confidence in your ability. I prefer an assumptive close or a direct close. If it's obvious they like the vehicle and are ready to move forward (the subtle clues you pick up working in the business are very interesting) then I just walk them inside and start making a deal. If I'm not 100% I usually drop this direct line: If the numbers work out to your satisfaction, are you ready to drive the vehicle home today? Don't beat around the bush, get to the point. Most of the time the body language tells me all I need to know. Many times people say "well, not today " but their body language says "I want to buy this car, but I'm afraid if I show too much excitement, I won't be able to say no, and they'll rip me off."

Negotiation: This shit gets murky with all the know-it-alls telling you what you should do when negotiating a car deal. It's simple, to make the most gross, you have to make the customer feel like they've won. Does that mean the client gets ripped off? No. If I bought a car off the street for 10k and it's value is 17k, are you getting ripped off if I sell it to you for 15k? You get a great deal, and I get a nice profit through buying my inventory proactively. If you're not that confident in your pricing, it shows, likewise for clients, I know when they're ready to say yes, but saying no so they can get more discount. The client knows if it's a fair deal or they wouldn't say yes. That's when I put my foot down and say it's not getting better than this. If I let you drive off that day, in general, I've given you my best offer. If that happens, the potential client should drive around the block and walk back in and make the deal. For the consumer: Make a realistic commitment and stick to it, they'll do the damn deal . When I say realistic, I mean make an offer that makes sense, none of this 2k back of invoice bullshit, you're only going to piss me off and make me kick you out for being an asshat. If the client offers me 100 or 200 over invoice minus rebates on a common car, I'm going to do the deal. If you do your research, you know what you qualify for rate-wise. I'm full disclosure on my closing, I show the potential client the price, the trade value, the tax, the extra "back end products" and their prices. If you want to negotiate on the price or payment doesn't matter to me. Some salespeople don't know how to make gross without negotiating payment only. If you know what you're doing you can read a deal and work it any way you want and still make money.

Finance: The client goes into the F&I office to handle all the paperwork, the F/I manager will try to sell the client various finance products: Gap Insurance, Extended Service plans, paint protection, among other things. I have my feelings on all these products, and I can elaborate if you'd like just reply here and I'll answer that for you.

Delivery: This is where your product knowledge shines, you show the client how to use their car and answer any questions.

Follow up: There are varying opinions on when to call your client. I generally follow up 1 day after, then 1 week, then 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, and every 6 months afterward.

Referrals: Ask your client for referrals, if you've done your job, your client will be more than happy to oblige. Ask for the referral's information so that you can get a jump start on what they're looking for.

Simple.

Gloff > Gloff 11/02/2013 at 02:52

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Tommy used the same process in his deal with you. He knows his product. He should go into car sales, he would make a ton of money with that kind of sales smarts. He's lucky though, he gets to sell many makes and models. I don't get that luxury, so I need to know my product's pros and cons, and I make sure to let the client know that.

Case in point: Ford Fiesta vs. Honda Fit

The Fiesta is fun to drive, but people have complained about the automatic transmission. the space in the back is a bit small. It gets nearly 40mpg on the highway if you drive a reasonable speed. There are a multitude of gadgets that many cars in its class don't have.

The Fit has tons of room and the seats fold completely flat. It has a traditional automatic transmission which nets it a highway MPG of around 35 when driven at a reasonable speed. It's a nice size and a quality car, but leaves something to be desired in the NVH department.

If you didn't know which manufacturer I work for, which one would you guess? I use these hot points with every customer cross shopping the two. I work for Ford. If cargo room and flexibility is most important to them I might go against the grain and try to up-sell a Focus if they show disinterest in the Fiesta because I might have a better chance (even with the low success rate of switching) than if I try to force the Fiesta on them. If they buy a Honda Fit, I know I did my best to try to sell them a car, the Fit was just better suited.

Coalman > desertdog5051 11/02/2013 at 02:59

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They do still use them on a lot of cars. Especially Economy cars. They're perfectly adequate and in some ways better because they last longer than discs. Dunno what vehicles you've service drums on but most of the ones I've seen nowadays have Self-adjusting systems in place. Just like Discs, which will compensate for brake shoe wear. Also never seen them warp, they're pretty hefty. I'm sure if your doing autocrossing type events, yes, you can overheat them and cause fade. But for regular daily drivers it's not a problem.

The key advantage with Discs is heat control. They allow the heat from braking to be better dispersed. Since drums on the rear only do roughly 40% of the braking that's not as much of an issue.

Some VW's had an issue with the parking brake cables with the rear discs. The rubber at the end connected to the discs would allow water in, which would eventually freeze up the cable. Both Disc and Drum versions had somewhat of an issue with clearance whereas the cable would get worn down along the chassis, but overall the Drums were more durable. The only PITA on MKIII's is that the rotor/drum had the bearing integral and setting the nut could be tricky.

Buran > Jonathan Woodall 11/02/2013 at 04:18

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How is it the customer's problem how a business operates? By your argument, we should still be buying horses and buggies because a better way coming along would put horse and buggy sellers out of business instead of adapting, and no, we can't have that, it seems.

desertdog5051 > Coalman 11/02/2013 at 11:01

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Agree that they are OK for most basic cars. I can be an aggressive driver and have been driving longer than many of the readers have been alive. I have seen brake fade in the past. Especially if additional weight and downhill are involved.
Having grown up in the rust belt, I can tell you that self adjusters are good for the first 3 months of a cars life. Even now, living in the dry desert, I still have to do a manual adjustment on my old P/U's adjusters from time to time.
Nothing personal, anybody who likes drum brakes also probably would like to go back to flathead engines and B&W TV's.

Jonathan Woodall > Buran 11/02/2013 at 13:28

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How is it the customer's problem? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's because businesses require customers to, you know, stay in business. I'm not suggesting the current dealership model is permanent, I have little doubt that it will be obsolete eventually, but it will take a long time for that transition to take place and possibly will be more about new companies taking over than existing ones changing their dealer models. Tesla was able to do it in only 10 years because they were starting from scratch and have the ability to start small and expand gradually. Also, they didn't have to ruin thousands of business and put hundreds of thousands of people out of work to make it happen, since it was a new business.

Tom McParland > Gloff 11/02/2013 at 15:03

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Impressive Mr. Gloff, you sound like the type of dealer I like to work with. Please drop me a line about yourself and your dealership. I get clients from all over the country, if I land one in your area I would love to do business together. Automatchconsulting @ gmail.com

Gloff > Tom McParland 11/03/2013 at 02:32

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Thank you, I will.

BlueSoap > Tom McParland 11/03/2013 at 14:22

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I know. It was the Death Knell for Saturn when GM decided to take a more hands on approach. Sadly I do not think GM tried the Saturn approach to selling with any other dealerships. Seems to be the GM curse,when a product is finally working,they kill it some how.

Mustafaluigi > Turbo-Brick 11/04/2013 at 10:32

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Well good thing I have a WRX not a STI so I have mine sans wing.

Buran > Jonathan Woodall 11/04/2013 at 21:53

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It's not my problem because I'm here to buy a car. I'm not here to keep an unnecessary middleman in business. If the middleman marks the car up too much, I'm going to go to the guy who won't mark up the car. Why should I pay for some guy to place the order for me when I would place it myself if the carmaker would accept it from me directly? He is worth $0 to me.

Velequez > Tom McParland 11/05/2013 at 09:07

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I would be willing to guess good customer service is a corporate, not company, policy. Buy Buy Baby is owned by the same people as Bed Bath and Beyond. I don't have any experience with Buy Buy Baby but I will always buy weddings gifts from Bed Bath and Beyond because of the service my wife and I got when we got married. They let us use 10 or 15 20% off coupons when we exchanged the individual pots and pans for the set and picked up the items we were excited about but weren't gifted. We walked out of there with all the pots, pans and kitchen utensils along with over $100 in cash!

Group B-raaaaaaaaaap! > desertdog5051 11/14/2013 at 16:24

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As an enthusiast, I agree that drum brakes in this day and age are just dumb. But, VW had (likely correctly) guessed that those buying the S-trim levels wouldn't know or wouldn't care about the difference, because they are the least likely users to push the car hard.

That said, Automatch also pointed out a bigger issue in the entire sales world with that VW salesperson's response: these people have learned to be afraid of their customers. And that fear leads to lines of BS, deflection, minimizing, and a lack of trust in the relationship. The correct answer would have been " Yes, those drum brakes are an older technology. If 4-wheel disc brakes are important to you, I have other trim levels where they are included. Honestly, unless you plan to drive the car aggressively or for performance use, you wouldn't likely notice a difference. VW uses these because they perform acceptably and allow for a better price. " See? Simple, honest, direct.