Why Nissan is Allowed to Criticize the BRZ:

"GhostZ" (GhostZ) 10/27/2013 at 18:46 • Filed to: fuckdapolice, Nissan, GhostZ, BRZ

9

72

And this ignores their "expensive" and FF sports cars. Add the Z34, Z33, Z32, G35, G37, Pulsar (and GTi) Skylines (GTS, GTS-T, GTS-4, GT-Rs, there's a million of them) Most years of the Maxima, the M series, the FX series, and tons of other cars to that list.

Just because Nissan took a break from cheap, fun cars for a few years doesn't mean they can't do it again. Nissan has more experience making cheap RWD enthusiast cars than Mazda, Subaru, and Toyota combined.

Nissan has definite grounds to criticize the BRZ. That man who did is an idiot, but the company has built a reputation and history as the kings of this market, even if they stopped watching the throne for a few years and let the BRZ take away some market share.

Let's be completely honest. The BRZ is a speck on the radar of cheap RWD cars that happened to have good timing. There was the Civic, the Miata, the GT86, and now the BRZ, but none of them ever killed Nissan's ability to made badass enthusiast cars.

I leave you with this gif.

EDIT: I feel no remorse for breaking Kinja.

Pitchblende > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 18:48

3

So, what you are saying is that as much as Nissan could criticise the BRZ, it is still better than their current entry in that segment of the market?

scoob > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 18:48

6

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY.

GhostZ > Pitchblende 10/27/2013 at 18:49

0

THEY AINT' DEAD THEY'RE JUST SLEEPING

Pitchblende > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 18:52

4

In his house at Nissan, dead Carthulu lies dreaming.

GhostZ > scoob 10/27/2013 at 18:53

0

You're opening a whole new world of extremely expensive and low-production cars.

Sure you want to do that?

I actually have never liked the 2000GT.

m2m, apex detective > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 18:56

0

Sleek solution for this conflict coming up!

One should demand that Toyota make a GT-R competitor, while Nissan create their own interpretation of what went into IS-F, LFA and GT86/BRZ.

Milky > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 18:58

5

"Nissan has more experience making cheap RWD enthusiast cars than Mazda, Subaru, and Toyota combined." Wwwhhhaaaattt?

Obvious reply.

Now RWD but I don't care.

Not to mention Toyota can rival Nissan all by itself.

SLR999 > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:05

2

You don't like the 2000GT? Nor this?

Brian, The Life of > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:06

1

You had me with the Dime.

GhostZ > Milky 10/27/2013 at 19:09

0

To counter your points like the belligerent fanboy I am:

MX-5 got fat, and was a one-hit-wonder with the NA.

Impreza STI isn't a cheap RWD, so it has to compete with the GT-R. No contest there.

The MR2 was less usable, with less power, and not as beautiful as the Silvia, through all of its generations. (The SW20, while slightly more powerful, wasn't nearly as cheap as the S13/S14).

The AE86's biggest motor was a 1.6l. The same year S11 Silvia came with a 3.0l V6 that had twice the HP as the SR-5, and 1.5x the HP of the GT-S. People spend tons of money to get 130HP out of an AE86, the Silvia came with 160 stock. And it only weighed a few hundred pounds more, with nearly identical looks.

The Supra, from MK1-MK3, made consistently 40HP less than that year's Z. For only 3 years of the MK3 supra was able to have more power (by a whopping 12HP), but it weighed 500 lbs more during that time too. It wasn't comparable performance-wise for the money.

The Celica likewise made about 30HP less than the Z, and never had a straight-six. Then, right as it would get a turbo to make it comparable to the S13, it went FWD, saving sportiness for only the more expensive models.

And also, guess which car, on its debut, beat out the Celica Twincam turbo on its same debut (1983 Rally Finland)?

Yep. The Nissan 240RS.

Only the mighty Audi Quattro beat the 240RS.

N/A POWAAAHH > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:10

0

Mother of post on the main page!

Stef Schrader > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:12

1

*This* is the car that Nissan needs to start making again. This one this one this one. ROOOOOOADSTERRRRRR.

MooseKnuckles > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:15

2

You brokeneded the Oppo!

GhostZ > SLR999 10/27/2013 at 19:15

0

They're both designs studies and concepts that happened to be built in a few numbers. They're not "Real" cars. They're fantasies to build around a technology, and both were grossly overbudget and grossly underperforming. They aren't supporting the enthusiasts, they're building marketing tools.

All of Nissan's comparable cars (240z, GT-R) were built in massive quantities compared to the LFA and 2000GT. As single cars, they can't compete with an entire lineage of comparable cars that were far cheaper, and, in my opinion, better looking and more advanced.

Walfisch > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:15

1

This is hot, me gusta!

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:30

1

There are finally Toyota/Nissan flamewars on Oppo with good music to go along with them!

GhostZ > m2m, apex detective 10/27/2013 at 19:37

2

Nissan actually has legitimate competitors to those cars, but they weren't marked/timed right.

IS-F:

The Infiniti M56. RWD, 7-speed, 420HP 5.6l V8, weighs only 200lbs more. And unlike Lexus's engine, the M56 engine is based on a 4.5l homogalation block that was good for up to 490 N/A HP in the Super GT cars. If Nissan wanted to, they could pull 500HP out of the 5.6l with ease (having an extra liter to use), but the engine is dialed back as a luxury car. Now they only need to drop some weight and improve the handling.

LFA:

In 1998 Nissan made a homolation car for Le Mans racing.

It was faster than the LFA, in 1998, and also had an incredible engine like the LFA's: a 3.5l Twin Turbo V8. It made 700HP in race trim and 550HP in road trim. Oh, an the car weighed 1000 lbs less.

So an LFA competitor would probably use the GT-R's engine, hooked up to a RWD transaxle in a super lightweight carbon fiber body based off of the R390's body. I'm guessing around 600HP at under 3000lbs, 400 lbs less than the LFA for an MSRP around that of the LFA's.

Obviously their GT86 killer is the new Z, which will have a 2.5l directed injected turbo QR25DDT good for around 280-350HP, RWD, manual, short wheelbase, and weight around 3000lbs. And you know that engine is going to love tuning, unlike the currently high-strung Z engine.

But I would even more so like to see a Silvia that weighed under 3000lbs with a N/A 2.5l engine at around 240HP, and a turbo version with what is essentially the Z engine at 320HP.

Milky > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:38

8

Errrrr ..... the WRX is cheap though, very unlike the GTR and you site weight a lot and still say the Miata got fat?! Compared to what?? Also The AE86 is a legend, the S11? Not so much.

Let Nissan criticize the toyobaru twins with the next Z, not their words.

PS9 > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:44

4

Nowadayz everybody wanna talk like they got somethin' to say, but nothing comes out when they move their lips, just a bunch of gibberish, you see, what happened is they forgot about the Silvia, G25, Z32, Z33, Z34, 300zx, Skyline, R32, R33, R34, 240 sx...

Oh man that doesn't work at all.

SLR999 > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:46

1

I'm a car person, not a statistician.

I don't care about numbers, but how something makes me feel . The 2000GT's curves and the LFA's V10 make me quake.

The 240z and the GTR are comparable in the same way Volvo thought its P1800 was a DB5. As in, not.

GhostZ > Milky 10/27/2013 at 19:46

0

The Miata got fat compared to its own engine and suspension. The Z got huge power gains and handling improvements as it gained weight, even if the interior quality suffered.

I will concede that Nissan doesn't have a cheap 4WD sporty car, as the FX and current GT-R is way out of the WRX's price range, and the 4WD G37 doesn't count, even if it is a sporty 4WD coupe/convertible with a powerful V6.

The AE86 is a legend, thanks to Keiichi Tsuchiya, but the S11 is still a better car, as can be said about a lot of vehicles.

That being said, I can't wait for the next Z.

m2m, apex detective > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:48

3

That's all very nice ... but they need to make 'em. Now. Pretty please?

Little old me can't even get the Infinity with the 5.6l 8-cyl. on the other side of the pond, all we get is the M30d. Also, is the M56 actually set up that harsh, sport-ish?

If they make a little Z again, consider me a fan from the start ... both the 350Z and 370Z were somewhat plump for my personal taste. Here's hoping your optimism won't be in vain.

Random note: don't you think that homologation cars are a bit like cheating, seeing that counting these would enable Honda to have an actual sportscar right now with the HSV10, iirc (was that even the designation?).

Also, since you've posted some eye candy with that racer, let me try to follow up somehow.

Sparf > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:50

1

This post ticks all my boxes.

GhostZ > SLR999 10/27/2013 at 19:50

0

My point is that Nissan was able to do almost everything that Toyota could do, at significantly less cost and far more frequently.

And in the case of Nissan's ultra-rare cars (See: Fairlady Z432, R390) which came at the same cost as Toyotas, they were able to do so much more.

I don't like the LFA and 2000GT because every time I see them, I first feel excitement, but then realize that they took far more than necessary to create because of the desperate bureaucracy that produced them. That's part of the feeling from the cars. It's like looking at a machine that you know is built well and does its purpose, vs something that you enjoy but is fantastically expensive compared to what it actually does .

iThinkergoiMac > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:50

1

Let's be completely honest. The BRZ is a speck on the radar of cheap RWD cars that happened to have good timing. There was the Civic, the Miata, the GT86, and now the BRZ, but none of them ever killed Nissan's ability to made badass enthusiast cars.

Am I missing something in this statement? The Civic isn't RWD (my quick research shows a 4WD model in the mid '80s, which actually sounds awesome). The GT86 and BRZ are essentially the same car, so why are they listed separately?

Overall, though, I agree with what the article is saying. Even if Nissan DIDN'T have significant experience building these types of vehicles, they would be allowed to criticize. They might be laughed at if they can't do it better themselves. However, the truth is the truth no matter who says it.

I didn't actually watch the video, so I'm not referring to any truth in it, since I don't know what is in it. Just a general statement.

m2m, apex detective > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:52

1

Bonus glee: that R390 just looks glorious ... I'd happily give you Palmer's position. :D

GhostZ > m2m, apex detective 10/27/2013 at 19:53

0

I used the Homog cars to explain what an LFA competitor would have been like, since they dabbled in it back in 1998.

Still have respect for the GT-One though...

GhostZ > iThinkergoiMac 10/27/2013 at 19:57

1

I'm saying that the list of cars that "stole" the 20-something sports segment away from Nissan includes the Civic, Miata, AE86 (I meant AE86, not GT86), and BRZ. The Civic just happens to be FF, even if it is the best FF (EK9, that is) ever sold.

The video is just a reminder for people who forgot about Dre/Nissan.

m2m, apex detective > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:58

2

Thinking about what bold moves car manufacturers have pulled off in the past gives me harsh nostalgia ... and I'm not even old. Everything is becoming so sensible .

To remember this day, I christen thee Carlos GhostZn. *sploosh*

Milky > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 19:59

2

I think a lot of people would disagree with this statement - "The Miata got fat compared to its own engine and suspension."

With that being said I still like nissan, but you made some huge claims.

scoob > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:05

0

Why the hell do you keep hating on my opinion? It's my opinion. No one ever said anyone or everyone has to agree with you. Same goes for the last time you replied to me.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:13

2

I'm sorry but Milky nails it. What has Nissan made in the past decade or more that comes anywhere close to the BRZ/FR-S or even their old silvia name plate? The sentra SE-R has been a load of crap in the sport compact segment since 2004 or so and the Altima SE-R, while cool, is still a FF sedan. Meanwhile, since 2000 we have had...

There are others I could add but really, admit it - Nissan hasn;t made anything in the affordable RWD coupe or roadster segment in YEARS. Let alone actually sold it in the US market. For that we need to go back almost 20 years with the S14. Sorry, but Nissan is nowhere near a performance brand anymore and the 370z is a midlife crisis car.

P B > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:14

0

What's that rap video all about?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:24

1

Let's be completely honest here - nissan has decided they don't need a car in the affordable RWD coupe segment sine they pulled the neutered S14 240sx out in the 90s. This also ignores the 280zx and original 300zx which, to be frank, were not the best cars in the world. Now toyota and subaru have cut in with a simple, handling focused 4 cylinder to go along side the established pony car coupes and all the sudden nissan is all about trash talk? I laugh and feel a bit of pity for them. They are acting like old GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Yes, I just went there. If I could waltz into one of these high level meetings which is a circle jerk over the 370z while berating the BRZ, I'd scream the following at them - When you get called out on your own bullshit, it's better to admit it than to try and discredit someone else who is actually succeeding . Seriously, that press release stunk to high heaven of the old mentality of "Well let's just pretend our competition isn't any good! We don't have to admit they have anything good going for them, we just parade out our crap and those SOBs will keep throwing money at us! Hurr hurr hurr!" and then this happens-

OH WAIT.......

Okay, they're not quite the same, but still. I find it funny the company that sells one RWD car alone with a starting price of 35k or so and a "supercar" that starts at over 100k thinks his company has any room to talk when their cheapest performance oriented model or trim comes in the form of a FWD CUV with less than 200hp. It is a fiesta ST competitor and it will get its head handed to it by the fiesta. Nissan is a joke right now. They should admit that their lineup went stale and SHOW ME the new car, don't just passively talk about it while dissing the competition. That is an elementary school kid's way to argue 'Well....well...IT'S NOT FAIR! I WANT IT! MY DAD CAN BEAT UP YOUR DAD! *sniff* *sniff* *cry*"

P B > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:26

0

Quit defending Nissan.

This isn't the past, it's the present and Nissan doesn't have a vehicle in the same segment as the BRZ/FRS and if Nissan thinks they could create a BRZ/FRS fighter that looks like a messed up Nissan Juke, then Nissan only needs to look at the sales and desirability of the Juke to see how the public is going to respond.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:26

2

Miata got fat? WTF? when is a car with a 2,550lb curb weight fat? The body and interior space was made bigger but it is still not fat.

NA-2,070lb curb weight

NB-2,350lb curb weight

NC-2,550lb curb weight.

If that is fat then shiiiiit i need a lighter car.

GhostZ > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 10/27/2013 at 20:28

0

Like I said in another comment "THEY AINT' DEAD, THEY'RE JUST SLEEPING!"

Although, cost-wise, the 370Z is right up there with the Genesis, and only a few thousand more than the RX-8. Nissan's problem is they thought that the Z could do all of the brand's sports car duties .

But my point is while most companies get lucky with a good car, Nissan has tons of experience in doing what the BRZ did, and did it on a regular basis, until this last decade.

signintokinjalol > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:35

0

Eh?

Mazda:

Subaru:

Toyota:

Must i go on? I even left out a few.

First off, the Miata is one of the most popular track day cars ever made. Track day even have Miata series...

Toyota sold a car to the public that was mid engined and pretty cheap.

I love Nissan but when you say they are better then three companies who excel in their areas far better then Nissan whom sports car formula was basically the same in till the R35 and whom look quite confused if you look at their ranges. (How much was a GTR when it debut? How much is it now?)

GhostZ > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 10/27/2013 at 20:35

0

NA lbs/HP: 15.03

NB: 15.13

NC: 15.26

Here's a comparison of the Z:

Z32: 11.33

Z33: 10.6

z34: 9.23

I should have said that the Miata got fat compared to its power output . You can't add 500lbs to a lightweight car and only increase the HP by 30.

feather-throttle-not-hair > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:36

1

There were no FWD turbocharged Celicas. All of the Celicas that got turbochargers got all wheel drive as well. That generation of Celica won a WRC championship.

But as a Z33 owner, i still applaud this post.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:37

1

I think it's not so much they have "tons of experience" just that they took advantage of being one of the few left to do it after the death of the british/italian roadster. The 240sx showed nissan is more than happy to half ass a product for us. It's a great chassis, but the car as a whole is bad because of that engine. The Z car became a GT focused car in the 80s and only recently came back with the 350/370z but even then it was a more expensive sports car that was a midlife crisis car for those who couldn't afford a corvette. From my udnerstanding, they thought the sentra SE-R could handle what the "kids" wanted but then the cobalt SS put a turbo on that rinky little ecotec and gave the sentra an atomic wedgie while the GTI laughed at its feeble attempts to be taken seriously. Meanwhile the focus SVT took potshots at it too and the neon SRT-4 decided the sentra wasn't anywhere close to being in the same league as it.

The way I see it - nissan actually doesn't know how to make cheap fun anymore. Their first attempt at a BRZ competitor will be inferior to it. They need at least one generation before they "get it" and can make something good again.

TSLA > Milky 10/27/2013 at 20:42

1

Since everyone does not live in 'Murica, the GT-T and GT-R can be had for very cheap in other countries.
The AE86 is only popular because of some cartoon. The Silvia name has heritage and has shared platforms with many popular names like the Datsun and GTR.
The S11 is extra special because was made on the Mazda cosmos platform and was intended to house a big three rotar from the Mazda Cosmos. Just the idea of a three rotar sports car at the time was revolutionary.

feather-throttle-not-hair > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 10/27/2013 at 20:43

0

Those are nice cars you've posted. Despite you offhandedly deciding that the 370Z is a "mid life crisis" car, logically there is no reason the Z33/Z34 wouldn't fit right in there.

The 350Z was $26K when it was released in 2003. It had around 300 horsepower and was rear wheel drive. It wasn't amazing, but it did a lot of performance car things really well. Which is why Nissan sold a buttload of them, which is why you're sick of seeing them everywhere and likely why you've decided you dont like them.

When you dont really like a car that much in the first place, there's nothing worse than everyone and their uncle getting one and then saying "BRO MY CAR CAN DRIFT BRO!" Still, dont hold it against the car, hold it against everyone and your uncle.

mcseanerson > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:44

1

You forgot the fx50, the premier entry level rwd sports car offroad capable family car.

GhostZ > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 10/27/2013 at 20:45

0

370z was dropped down to a $30,000 price, to compete with the BRZ. That's only $4000 more and the BRZ. Combine that with the release of the next Z, which will be 330HP, 2800lbs, and $25,000, and the BRZ is going to be blown out of the water. Like I said to others, Nissan knows how to build the BRZ better than Toyota or Subaru. They may have lost their way, but they're clearly ready to attack now, the trash talk is just the result of that.

You also can't use the "well, their other models are crap" excuse. You're not including all of the awesome RWD Infiniti models, and Toyota doesn't even make their own RWD car.

I'm just saying that people need to stop talking about Nissan as it is "today" and start thinking about what it will be tomorrow, given what it was yesterday. Don't forget about all of the awesome cars they built before, because they're about to come out with a RWD, Manual, Turbo sports car at GT86 prices and weight, and almost 150% more HP and smoke the compeition. Like they did in 1966, 1969, 1979, 1984, 1989, 1998, and 2003.

GhostZ > P B 10/27/2013 at 20:48

0

Current Z:

3100lbs
350HP
$30,000

Specs of the next Z:

2800lbs
330HP
$25,00

Specs of the BRZ:

2800lbs
200HP
$25,000

Are you that worried it will look like a 'messed up' Juke?

GhostZ > mcseanerson 10/27/2013 at 20:50

0

I only included "cheap" sports cars. If I included expensive ones, the list would be huge . The FX50 is great.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:50

0

Ok that makes more sense. Good point sir. Still love my miata tho

Milky > TSLA 10/27/2013 at 20:53

1

I don't think " very cheap" is the equivalent to 25kUS wherever the vehicle was sold.

But as for the AE86 .... I think it was popular for the same reasons as the GT86, cheap and RWD. Cartoon or not. Also the s11 was special because of its shared chassis? Well I guess that Van made on the 350Z chassis is pretty cool too.

Manuél Ferrari > Milky 10/27/2013 at 20:54

1

"Let Nissan criticize the toyobaru twins with the next Z, not their words."

This sentence deserves credit. To me it's not about whether the Nissan deserves to be able to criticize the twins or not. Yes it's true that Nissan made a TON of great and affordable RWD cars in the past. The Datsun/Nissan Zs of my youth were some of my favorite cars (not just favorite cars that were priced under the exotics, but favorite cars period). But it's not becoming of an exec to trash talk the product of a rival. The best way to compete is to improve your own products. Talking smack about a rival company or their product makes a business exec look insecure.

All organizations have to keep improving and not stand on their past achievements. Same thing applies in sports. The Lakers have been the most dominant NBA team of the last 30 years or so, but none of that matters to fans if the new ownership can't right the ship.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 20:55

1

I am worried about what Nissan would do to the "successor" of the Q45.

No, listening to Vettel doesn't alleviate my worries a bit.

King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 21:16

0

That S15 is humina humina humina...I love the no spoiler look, especially with some Gram Lights.

Also, props in general for this (from another lifelong Nissan fanboi).

Milky > Manuél Ferrari 10/27/2013 at 21:25

1

Exactly. Mercedes cant stop making the S-class and then criticize the 7-series and say "But our car was great" . Thats not how it works. Let your companies products do the talking.

iThinkergoiMac > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 21:26

0

Ah, I see. I was interpreting it as the category being "cheap RWD cars". Thanks for the clarification!

rabidcontent > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 21:33

0

grossly underperforming.

LOL. I'll just leave this here (attention to #6, 4 sec faster than the quickest GT-R and cars worth many times more than either of them).

It should be noted I have wet dreams about the GT-R, regularly in fact, but the LF-A is on it's own little pedestal.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > feather-throttle-not-hair 10/27/2013 at 21:35

1

Funny story - nissan sold a buttload of 350s the first few model years. After that? No one cared. Here's a news snippet from 2009 that says as much and the numbers are not improving. It actually does have a "driver's car" image now as the only people I know who have them are nissan employees who snag a nismo Z for track thrashing. But it is nowhere near the price bracket of the cheap, lightweight and affordable sports car or coupe anymore. Yes THIS year the base price is below 30k. But in 2012, it wasn't, it started at 33k. The 350z started at 26k or so, but there was some price creep not unlike what the GTR is suffering from.

here's another report outlining why the 370z is not competitive anymore so no, it isn't me not liking the car, it is me stating facts. Nissan doesn;t know how to make a damn car anymore. At least, they don't know how to sell one. 7500 370zs in 2012? That is a joke in the industry. Porsche sold more 911s than nissan did 370Zs, to put into perspective how awful those sales figures are for a mid 30k sports car meant for a broad audience.

GhostZ > rabidcontent 10/27/2013 at 21:47

0

You can't compare it to a GT-R. Toyota wanted it to be an exclusive $390,000 crazy supercar, not a $70000 supercar people could afford, like Nissan. So you have to put it up against these:

And yeah, when you consider that, it's grossly underperforming.

EDIT: I got the link wrong, but even Nurburgring lap times are not indicative of mechanical ability. The "nurburgring" package was intended to make up for the LFA's weakness compared to the GT-R, and even with all of their tuning and cost, the best they manage is 4 seconds faster. Compare the Viper ACR VS SRT-10 and you'll see what I mean. If you disregard course-specific tuning, the GT-R is still a much more capable vehicle.

Plus, no one gets 1800HP out of the LFA motor. There's that too!

drift240 > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 22:13

0

Nissan is going to have to seriously up their game if they want to compete with the BRZ and GT86. A 1.6L turbo is not going to do it. Their recent cars are nowhere near as sharp as the toyobaru. They can't just come in with more power, because that is not this car's game. They'll need to bring in some handling and driver engagement (along with the powa). Subaru and Toyota came out of nowhere and nailed it, so maybe Nissan can as well, but at this point I fear that anything Nissan comes up with will be a pale imitation. They aren't driven by passion, they want a product that will compete. Akio wanted another ae86 that was fun as shit to drive. Carlos wants some escargot and champagne.

drift240 > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 22:22

1

The BRZ is better than all of the Z cars since the 280zx, and all of the Silvias. It also has the benefit of 20 years technology on top of the 240sx, but it puts that car to shame. Even with full aftermarket suspension, a 240sx can't compete, and my car will eat a 370z. It's why I never bought a 370....it was not as fast or sharp as my 240. The BRZ still isn't anywhere near faster, but fully stock it is sharper.

I would love to see Nissan come out with something awesome, but I'm not going to hold my breath, and probably not going to sell the BRZ. The low CoG is a great trick, and I don't see anything else getting there for Nissan money.

drift240 > GhostZ 10/27/2013 at 22:26

2

Numbers on paper. Go outside and drive them. A 2800lb 330hp Z sounds interesting, so it's up to them to pull it off. How are they going to do that for $25k without being a crapcan?

GhostZ > drift240 10/27/2013 at 22:32

0

It's only a $5000 price drop from the current Z, most of which will come from the engine. The VQ is a pretty expensive engine already, and the QR has been already designed, including its direct injection. 400lbs of comfort and size can go a long way to dropping that price tag, the rest will come out by switching to the 2.5l engine.

feather-throttle-not-hair > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 10/28/2013 at 00:11

0

I said the 350Z was cheap and sold well. The 370Z is more expensive and isn't selling as well.

But if your argument is that the 370Z doesn't deserve to be included because of sales, i'm surprised because I know for a fact that Nissan sold more of them than Mazda sold RX-8's last year or Honda sold S2Ks. I didn't check the Saturn numbers for last year, but I have a sneaking suspicion Nissan still moved more Z's than Saturn moved Sky's.

As for price creep, of course there was some, but unlike the GT-R, which went from 60K to 100K in 3 years, the 350Z went from 26K to 28K in about the same amount of time.

They misjudged the market with the 370Z (and in my opinion made it a bit uglier.) But the RX-8 was no long term hit either, the only difference is that Mazda didn't have the balls (or alternatively, had the good business sense) to not follow it up with anything.

My point is this: All the cars that you posted are nice, but there is no reason other than personal bias to specifically exclude a Z car from that collection.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > feather-throttle-not-hair 10/28/2013 at 00:50

1

Oooooh okay I think you misunderstood the point of me posting those pictures. I didn't exclude the 350/370 to dismiss it, I excluded it because I was just listing the competition in the 2000s that did as good a job or better of being an easily affordable and fun sports car or coupe. But moving on.

Looking at sales data, the solstice and sky outsold the 350 and 370 for every year they were on the market in the US. The RX-8 didn't sell better than the Z car, but it was also a 4 seater and had the unique wankel engine. I'm not a fan of it, but by being a bit different, mazda kept a heady customer base for that sort of car. Mazda is smaller than nissan and emphasizes being a brand for enthusiasts so the RX-8s sales numbers aren't actually a disappointment as that was all they knew they could sell. The reason why they don't have a successor is because of fuel economy requirements so they're working on a more efficient rotary to take its place. The S2000 suffered from typical honda long product cycle life with the lack of a major generation change in its years of development. It was 4 years old by the time the 350Z was released. But it was there anyways, still stealing sales that could have gone to the similarly priced Z cars that were more powerful by being a more attractive buy in the marketplace.

And if I look into the pony car segment with all three domestic pony cars being more powerful and cheaper by thousands as well as the 2012+ genesis packing almost as much power and "go-fast" tech like a LSD and brembo brakes in a 27.5k price, the 370Z faces incredibly strong competition that routinely rakes in more money than it does. Although the genesis coupe only sells about 20-30k a year vs. the 50k+ the domestics can bring in. I will grant that these cars are not a "pure sports car" experience but they are cheap and have figured out that some customers want their car to handle well on a road course. Pretty sure the fatty camaro and challenger would be down a decent chunk of time on a given road course to a 370Z unless you went and ticked a bunch of options and drove up the price (1LE camaro at minimum and SRT8 challenger would be needed) but the mustang with the track pack? And the R-spec genesis? Their base powertrains would struggle to keep up, but they don't disappear in the mirror like the pony cars of old. Give the mustang the V8 and the genesis its updated V6 and the 370Z is no faster, at best.

I admit, the 350Z was a breath of fresh air into the market when it launched. Comparison tests tell no lie and even looking at the numbers, it had V8 power from a V6 as well as enough rear tire and chassis to play tag with a boxster. But then nissan pulled a honda and let it rot. The 370z being more like the 350z gen 1.5 than an actual second generation. The nismo upgrades were cool but came at the expense of the car's ability to exist outside of a track. A nissan employee friend of mine had one for a few months as part of the corporate lease program. It was a hell of a car.....right up until we hit a rough expansion joint and I suddenly learned what "bone breaking ride" meant. Stupidly fast car, but that's a lot of sacrifices to make for moderate improvements on the track. So besides that, the 370 has justsort of let everyone play catch up to it. Meanwhile, what is there below the Z? In the early 90s, nissan had the entry sentra with the SE-R pack, the 240SX, and then the 300ZX to cover a good spread of price and customers. Now? They have a near 10-year old car that is middle of the pack at best and nothing else.

I stand by what I said, their first attempt at a brz/fr-s fighter will struggle. Unless Renault somehow steps in with some magic. Which I kind of doubt as they aren't exactly known for RWD sports cars themselves.

Saracen > GhostZ 10/28/2013 at 00:59

0

And how many of those have come to the US?

Without truck engines under the hood?

Nissan can talk all they want, but until they build a proper Silvia for the US market, they're full of hot air.

GhostZ > Saracen 10/28/2013 at 01:12

0

I only used USDM pictures, with the exception of the S15.

From Japan's perspective, we got the better engines. The L28, KA24, VG series, they were all high-displacing enough that they weren't cost-effective in Japan where displacement taxes were strict. Unfortunately, the L was non-crossflow, and the KA was only 3-valve and not 4-valve, and without a turbo.

Fluxx > GhostZ 10/28/2013 at 01:27

0

Garth Brooks wrote a song where he wailed "and if tomorrow never comes" repeatedly. You should listen to it. Nissan made some great cars. They even still make some pretty good ones. I don't remember the last time I saw a new Z not driven by someone in their 40's, so thats why that douche shouldn't have said what they said. Nissan has nothing comparable to the current 86 twins, and likely won't any time in the next 5 years. They got caught with their pants down being content being a slightly sportier (albiet uglier) Toyota. I'm eager to see Nissans response to the twins, but they were late to the dance and Toyota already got my money. My FR-S drives a lot nicer than my bosses 370Z, I won't win any drag races with him, but I have my Mustang for that. A 500-600 pound lighter Z that costs $8,000 less than the current model sounds like vaporware to me, if they can do it, good on them. But what will the baby boomers drive?

feather-throttle-not-hair > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 10/28/2013 at 02:48

0

Well okay then.

Now? They have a near 10-year old car that is middle of the pack at best and nothing else.

I'd agree to that. My concern was more "credit were credit is due." And I think Nissan deserves credit for taking a decent shot at performance cars in the last decade or so, even if they, like everyone else continued to sell their offering even after it'd been eclipsed by it's competition.

P B > GhostZ 10/29/2013 at 01:09

0

Who cares about specs that are on paper since automakers change their minds all the time before the final iteration is complete.

And again, that car isn't real while the BRZ/FRS are.

And I don't think you know what I'm talking about when I say "messed up Nissan Juke"

http://jalopnik.com/nissan-to-show…

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

The pic in the link is what I'm talking about.

pfftballer > GhostZ 11/09/2013 at 12:35

0

This looks like a Toyota to me.

GhostZ > pfftballer 11/09/2013 at 14:48

1

Nope. It's the S12 Nissan Silvia.

Here's a picture of it on the right, with the AE86 on the left.

The differences between the AE86 and the S12 was fully independent suspension (AE86 had live axle at the rear), was a few hundred lbs heavier and a little longer, and came with much larger engine options. The AE86 had a 1.6l 4 cylinder, whereas the S12 had a DOHC 4v turbo (188HP) or a 3.0l N/A V6(165HP).

So, as a result, it's power/weight ratio was way, way, better than the AE86.

Silvia S12 Turbo: .17HP / kg
AE86: .112HP/kg

pfftballer > GhostZ 11/09/2013 at 15:11

0

Wow. Uncanny resemblance. Thanks.

GhostZ > pfftballer 11/09/2013 at 23:08

1

The pillarless rear glass is about the only way to tell them apart from a distance. E