New Manual Transmissions Are Definitely Sucking

"PilotMan" (Pilotman) 10/21/2013 at 17:23 • Filed to: None

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What happened to the old cheap/easy clutch replacement that added value to purchasing a manual transmission? One reason I buy manuals is because I look forward to not having to rebuild or buy an expensive slush box. Replacing a clutch should be an affordable Saturday activity. My Mini is proving that this may no longer be true.

My 2007 Mini S needs a new clutch. She’s having a hard time holding anything about 3,000 RPMS in 4 th , 5 th , and 6 th gears. I’m gently trying to coax out another 5-days of life before I pull the transmission this weekend. Out of curiosity I called up the dealer for a quote, $3,500 out the door. Holy Frijolis that’s an expensive clutch replacement for a hatch back economy car. Remember kids, when you buy a Mini you also buy into BMW’s service costs. In addition to the horrible dealer labor rates, there's another reason for the high replacement cost. Most new cars now utilize expensive and over-complicated dual mass flywheels (DMF). Did you know that the small 1.6L BMW/MINI manual transmissions utilize a flywheel/clutch that weighs 40 pounds! That’s 40 pounds of rotational mass on a 1.6L engine! The clutch kit itself isn't the issue it's fairly small and is only $350 via BMW’s parts supplier. The flywheel is 700 freaking dollars and a purchase requirement 90% of the time since DMFs CAN NOT BE RESURFACED. The DMF utilizes two flywheels connected together with a friction plate and multiple sets of springs. The purpose is to smooth out the engine pulses while isolation the gear box from the engine. This turns the clutch into a mushy feeling mess and gives you the impression that the clutch is super soft and always slipping between engagements. Here’s a YouTube vid to illustrate how a DMF adds more parasitic drivetrain power loss along with some additional complexity and cost.

So my plan is to drop $1,000 on an adapted-solid flywheel which includes an OEM clutch kit. This solution saves about 20 pounds and $100 from the stupid DMF.

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I'm getting a good old fashioned aluminum flywheel that will spin the clutch just like a manual transmissions of 10 years ago. The clutch won’t engage as smoothly, there may be some chatter on non-perfect starts, and I may find out that my gear box needs a rebuild as well if it begins to make noise after the install. On the other hand, my engine will rev faster, give me a much quicker clutch take up, and get better mileage! I may need new CV joints sooner than later but by damn, my mini is going to be so much more enjoyable to drive quickly.

While I'm in there I also replace the rear main seal and the output seals on the tranny. I'll let you all know how it goes. Any thoughts or suggestions?

SteyrTMP > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:28

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Then there's Subaru. An Exedy OEM replacement clutch, 150. Not just the clutch disc, everything. Same with factory, and every other brand. For 1000, I could have gotten a Stage 3 clutch and flywheel.

Not every car is overpriced on replacements. I'm kinda glad my MCS is gone...

FJ80WaitinForaLSV8 > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:28

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Impressive. I feel your pain when it comes to modern cars. Likely why I won't be buying one anytime soon. Looking forward to seeing pictures of the actual job. Never working on the mini so don't really have anything to add. Good luck!

PilotMan > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:29

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ZeroOrDie - Powered By MZR > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:29

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Even the focus came with a dual mass flywheel. Imagine removing this and the balance shafts on the crankshaft. Free revving glory.

PanchoVilleneuve ST > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:29

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That Mini clutch price, I'm willing to bet, is because BMW owns them.

feather-throttle-not-hair > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:32

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$3500?!?!?!? Holy shit!!!

That's like almost twice what I paid to have the clutch replaced on my 1988 Celica all-trac, a car which is quite possibly the worst vehicle ever to have to replace the clutch on (they had to drop the engine and the transmission out of the bottom of the car and then use 2 engine hoists to separate them because the transmission weighs about six thousand pounds)

That's ludicrous.

And here I thought Mini was cool for still charging people more for an automatic. Kinda wonder how much it is for a new AT now....

505 - morphine not found > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:33

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Oh, while were at the issue of DMFs. You know, those manual diesel wagons the European market has, and all of oppo seems to crave and lust after? Every single one of them has a DMF, and it's frikkin expensive to replace, whether it's a Ford or a BMW.

As i said on many occasions, with the modern diesel comes lower consumption, but higher maintenance costs.

McLarry > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:34

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I'm actually in the same boat... My clutch has some life left, but has started the death throes of slipping in high gear on the highway. My Saab also came with a DMF which costs >$1000 alone to buy OEM. Folks on the Saab forums have said expect a quote of 2-2.5k, which I more or less expected, so I decided from the get-go this is going to be an aftermarket job. I've actually been looking into aluminum flywheels as well. Apparently everything but the flywheel is cross-compatible with the Chevy Cobalt SS, so if I do a flywheel swap I get access to more (and cheaper) aftermarket clutches.

You're right, though...this type of crap is WAY too common these days when manuals are supposed to be the cheaper option. I bit the bullet and did the ~2k clutch/dmf replacement with my old car (Tiburon) when I was younger and dumber, but there's no way I'm shelling out for that BS again.

Good luck on the DIY, by the way... I don't know that I'm brave enough to attempt the same. What's your plan? Do you have a lift?

duurtlang > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:35

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Last week I drove a brand new mk2 Peugeot 308, which shares the same engine (and I'd guess transmission) with the Mini Cooper. I noticed the clutch being very soft, smooth and forgiving. I contributed this to it being new, but reading this it can be the DMF wheel causing those shenanigans? Anyway, I hadn't expected this stuff to be that expensive.

I wouldn't call the Mini an economy car though, especially not the Cooper S. It's as much a luxury car as a larger BMW. How come the clutch is worn out after only 6 years? It seems a bit premature to me.

POD > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:36

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Can't wait to hear how it all turns out.

505 - morphine not found > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:37

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Just that this might not be that good an idea, at least the general knowledge is that where's there a DMF, you cannot replace it with a normal flywheel, because the vibrations will surface somewhere else along the line, and break something. I'm not saying this is for sure, and i'm certain there are people who already done this to a mini before, so if you read about it, and read that it works on the long haul, go ahead. I just wanted this thought to be posted here, because we should never underestimate the engineer who put that in there.

Volvosaurus-Rex > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:42

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I thought one of the big drivers for cost on FWD cars was the packaging of the engine and transmission somewhere directly above the front subframe, requiring complete removal of said subframe. Is that true for your Mini?

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:50

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What model year is you Mini?

If it's the Getrag 6-speed, can't you just use the SVT Focus parts? I just had to have mine replaced and it was $800 for the OEM+ clutch and Aluminum flywheel, plus another $660 for installation. (I've got a 2002 SVT Focus, btw.)

I'm still bedding in the clutch, so I can't tell much difference with the flywheel. However the ClutchMasters kit makes the spring super heavy.

I do agree that the DMF is a terrible idea. Lightness is always better.

Hermann > duurtlang 10/21/2013 at 17:51

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Wearing out in 6 years: Because Race Car?

davedave1111 > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 17:53

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You appear to have done your research already, but everything I've ever read suggests that replacing a DMF with a normal flywheel is not the solution to your problem. If you dig a bit deeper, there is info out there about how to repair a broken DMF - and if it's not worn out early, then it doesn't need replacing.

Bear in mind that the usual cause of DMF failure is incorrect driving, rather than an inherent problem with the concept of a DMF. Wide throttle openings at low revs causes lots of torsional vibration, which is what breaks DMFs - and it's roughly four times worse with diesels.

DMFs seem to have got a bad name early on because a) they probably weren't strong enough to start with, but b) because the cars they were put on first were the kind of cars people were most likely to allow to labour in too high a gear to try and save fuel. If you're driving a petrol-engined car in the right gear, and not towing overly heavy loads or anything, chances are you'll be fine.

This is quite informative:

http://www.techtalk.ie/index.php/why-…

Satish Kondapavulur > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 18:21

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The same thing applies to VW manuals these days. It's why I advocate going for the DSG.

PilotMan > 505 - morphine not found 10/21/2013 at 18:22

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With what I am hearing, if there are issues down the drive line they will make themselves known immediately after the install. I've been reading about gear boxes with too much shaft play rattling like crazy after a solid flywheel swap. I really hope that the transmission was engineered sufficiently to handle the added stress of a solid flywheel. By choosing an aluminum flywheel, I hope to decrease the shock loads associated of a more direct torque link. By going from 40 pounds to 15 or 20 of rotational mass, that should really help. I’m also wondering if that same 40 pounds has already caused damage to the bearing in the transmission.

My car was driving by a woman driver for its first five years of ownership and I worry about the damage that has been caused to the DMF with early shifts and such.

PilotMan > Volvosaurus-Rex 10/21/2013 at 18:23

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It's pretty ugly but should drop out with the removal of the front fascia, bumper, radiator support, etc...

PilotMan > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 10/21/2013 at 18:25

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A 2007 R56 Hatch Turbo.

That's a great price for the install, the Focus must require a fraction of the labor time.

HammerheadFistpunch > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 18:43

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A late model MINI? Well there's your problem. When was the last time the Germans made anything easy?

PilotMan > HammerheadFistpunch 10/21/2013 at 19:30

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Ja

cbell04 > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 19:50

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Changed my clutch and fly wheel in my 2000 maxima and holy hell what a nightmare (like doing my own work but sucked especially with my limited tools).. I can only imagine doing in a Mini. Good luck hope it works out so you don't have the pain and suffering of doing it twice in the same week as I did! Don't know what I did wrong the first time but had so much chatter during gear engagement that my exhaust rattled to pieces.. Took it all apart put it all back together and it worked nicely ever since..

PilotMan > cbell04 10/21/2013 at 20:02

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Been there.

I pulled the 727 out of 1970 Dodge, rebuilt it and installed it. I didn't realize that it was using the wrong dip stick, over-filled the transmission and blew all the seals. Rebuilt it again and installed it again. Lots of fun.

cbell04 > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 20:09

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I'm guessing a little more elbow room in the Dodge than the Cooper:) I figure your really never good at something till you do it at least twice!

Agrajag > Satish Kondapavulur 10/21/2013 at 20:37

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I have a DSG, but I wonder what reliability and longevity is looking like on them?

Agrajag > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 20:38

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Maybe this is some kind of psychological game the auto industry is playing to get everyone to get automatics.

/conspiracytheories

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 20:39

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Ah. Damn. It's only the 1st Gen SC MCS that shares the Getrag trans with the SVTF.

That totally blows dude. Aren't there any Euro garages around you that might charge less for labor?

Satish Kondapavulur > Agrajag 10/21/2013 at 20:42

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Reliability and longevity is fine, as long as you service the transmission every 40K miles or 5 years. It's expensive being about $400, but you can generally negotiate the price down with the dealer (it should be part of the 40K service though, but that shouldn't be anymore than $600 if you have a TDI, though it's cheaper [around $500] with a 2.0T engine).

FireSpittingV12 > PilotMan 10/21/2013 at 21:09

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The "holy shit" is strong with this one...

NoahthePorscheGuy > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 10/21/2013 at 21:44

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Off Topic but... HOLY SHIT SVT FOCUS IS AWESOME.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > NoahthePorscheGuy 10/21/2013 at 22:06

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Fuck Yeah It Is!

Seriously one of the best driver's cars of the last decade. It doesn't win many drag contests, but will it ever embarass much more expensive hardware in the corners.

The New Edge Design Ford used is polarizing. I am a fan, and think the SVT is also a tremendously good looking vehicle. Though the EDM Focus RS is the ultimate example of how good this styling can be.

I actually look forward to driving my car. I especially love how well the controls fall to hand while driving. The cruise is the easiest to use I've ever seen.

Also Hatchbacks are awesome. Fast ones are Fucking Awesome.

PilotMan > duurtlang 10/22/2013 at 10:06

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The clutch material is very thin, possibly to accommodate the additional thickness of the DMF. Reading on owner's forums it seems like the clutches need to be replaced between 70-100K miles. Depending on how much traffic your driving in and how much extra boost pressure you use with Sport mode, your clutch doesn't last too long. The original owner of my car was a woman.

PilotMan > cbell04 10/22/2013 at 10:10

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Actually the Mini is larger inside than the old Dodge Sweptside. Those older truck cabs don't give you much leg room. I do miss the Dodgem occasionally when the roads are dry and the air is cool.

cbell04 > PilotMan 10/22/2013 at 10:52

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Ahh had a mental image of a big old boat of a car! Back in the late 80's early 90's my father had a 70's full size van. Big ol center console hiding the motor and trans. Yeah go ahead and put your drink in the cup holder it'll be boiling after 30 miles and there was the constant fumes. I miss that old thing.

NoahthePorscheGuy > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 10/22/2013 at 22:42

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Yeah, I own the spiritual successor, the Fiesta ST, and minus the fact It currently is at the dealership due to a little issue with a lack of starting ability, I LOVE IT,

kenhitch > PilotMan 10/31/2013 at 20:01

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The cost on a Mini is also super high because in order to get to the clutch you need to remove the front end. Everything's packed in there pretty tight so a lot of it has to come out in order to do maintenance.

Jonee > PilotMan 10/31/2013 at 21:20

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Interesting. I was looking at a used '09 Clubman with a stick and I was wondering why it had had the clutch replaced at 35,000 miles. Since it now had 70,000, I wasn't sure if it was ready for another one.

I've also noticed that most new cars I've test driven have very light clutches. For someone used to driving vintage cars, it never feels right.

thegrover > PilotMan 10/31/2013 at 21:26

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My goodness know wonder it is so expensive. You used the expensive word utilize three times in three sentences. You could have saved $900 by using use.

Most new cars now utilize expensive and over-complicated dual mass flywheels (DMF). Did you know that the small 1.6L BMW/MINI manual transmissions utilize a flywheel/clutch that weighs 40 pounds! That’s 40 pounds of rotational mass on a 1.6L engine! The clutch kit itself isn't the issue it's fairly small and is only $350 via BMW’s parts supplier. The flywheel is 700 freaking dollars and a purchase requirement 90% of the time since DMFs CAN NOT BE RESURFACED. The DMF utilizes two flywheels connected together with a friction plate and multiple sets of springs.

AnotherHobby > Satish Kondapavulur 10/31/2013 at 22:18

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I do my own DSG fluid changes for $120. It's not that much different than an oil change and there are several DIY writups.

Clay Smith's Revenge > PilotMan 11/01/2013 at 00:15

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Yikes!! Seems like doing your own tranny work is getting harder by the day. My old 84 GTi wasn't too tough to fix up the transmission just right whenever I felt the clutch start slipping. Later I had an 87 Nissan Maxima that whenever the tranny acted up it was invariably the slave cylinder every time. I had to remove more heat shielding than on a space shuttle to get it out but it was good as new afterwards every time. Makes me wanna buy another 80's Nissan just for the fun. Maybe a Z with a 5 speed and ad paint

OkCars- 22k Crossroads > PilotMan 11/01/2013 at 00:48

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theres a reason why i bought the ol and simple Ford mustang, a manuel 2008 never fails, just seems that i have the transmission of a tractor bolted on. its so unsmooth

The Real Dacia Sandero > SteyrTMP 11/01/2013 at 01:39

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The entire kit with installation components for my Miata is $107.45. Thats for a Exedy oem replacement.

SteyrTMP > The Real Dacia Sandero 11/01/2013 at 02:46

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That's good to know, to consider that the Seven uses a Miata engine/transmission... Every once in a while, after a good hard thrashing, I smell something clutch-ish... I think the stock clutch is right on the HP edge for the turbo setup. It's going to need to be replaced eventually.

nika > PilotMan 11/01/2013 at 04:11

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those 20 pounds of mass that were eliminated from your setup are kind off the reason why the vibrations don`t surface anywhere else. i think it`s best to check for these kinds of disturbances at low rpm. please do a follow up on this article. i am really very interested in the subject as are my fellow jalops, i`m sure.

A-J-I > 505 - morphine not found 11/01/2013 at 04:32

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Indeed. DMFs, particulate filters, injectors (which seem to go wrong with worrying frequency), turbochargers etc. What worries me is that more gasoline cars are adopting DPFs, turbos and other complicated stuff. Doesn't bode well for long-term running costs.

ShibbyUTman > PilotMan 11/01/2013 at 08:35

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I'm not sure on the Mini's, but on anything E46 and newer for BMW's they have a self adjusting pressure plate too that adds a good deal of additional mass, without adding much function. I think there are many better and cheaper options that OE equipment when doing this service.

For the record on the mini, most of the labor is to completely disassemble the front end in order to get to the clutch and not the clutch components themselves. I'm sure you knew that though.

ICantStandNewJalopnik > NoahthePorscheGuy 11/01/2013 at 09:23

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You got a Fiesta ST? How is it? I sold my Jag XKR 5L for a Focus ST and was one of the best car swaps I have ever done. I am in love with my Focus! It's like a go kart!

SheriffTruman > PilotMan 11/01/2013 at 09:27

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I have a 2004 MINI Cooper S. Luckily, at 82k, my clutch is still holding great.

Part of the issue with the MINI Clutch replacement is the fact that you have to take the whole front of the car apart to get to the thing. It is so freaking tight.

It might not be a bad idea to check around with a local MINI club if you have one to find a mechanic. I recently did have to have my supercharger replaced and the dealer wanted $3,300 for it and I got more done for $1,000 less at a local shop that specializes in MINI and BMW and the techs are factory trained mechanics.

SheriffTruman > PilotMan 11/01/2013 at 09:31

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Also, if you haven't checked www.northamericanmotoring.com I am sure people there are all over changing out the DMF and what it may do to the drivetrain.

PilotMan > SheriffTruman 11/01/2013 at 09:48

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It's mentioned on the NAM forum but I can’t find any complaints after the swap. Most people like it as their MINIs end up quicker with a better clutch feel. The swap uses the OEM replacement clutch kit.

PilotMan > POD 11/01/2013 at 09:52

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I haven’t taken enough pictures for a how-to write up but I’ll post an update on Monday after I finish getting her back together.

PilotMan > PilotMan 11/01/2013 at 09:54

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The tranny is gone!

Casper > PilotMan 11/01/2013 at 10:06

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The problem is combination BMW and FWD. FWD have almost always been a pain to do clutches on and then smear a little BMW over the top and you have yourself a nightmare.

On a side note, think about the rotational mass a little bit. Rotational mass reduces the engines rev rate (revability?) but it increases the felt torque for changing gears. This is why motorcycles add rotational mass with heavier flywheels when they need more torque. Reducing that mass will make gear changes more difficult/reduce torque upon engagement when launching. Just something to think about... lighter isn't always better.

PilotMan > Casper 11/01/2013 at 10:32

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The Mini gearbox/clutch seems to have been engineered for female drivers as it is almost impossible to stall. Believe me, the mushy take offs and lazy gear changes can be improved upon. To take off quickly with the oem clutch you have to preload the flywheel and the sprung clutch center just to get the car moving off the line to over come all the dampening. It isn't a torque issue that requires the engine to get the flywheel spinning, it's just too much dampening preventing the clutch from engaging quickly. When you drive a car like this for the first time it feels like the clutch is almost worn out, your previous experience tells you it's slipping too much.

The replacement solid flywheel is still a big piece of metal since it has to be machined to the same dimensions as the DMF which is a couple inches thick. The clutch plate and flex plate come from the OEM clutch replacement kit with the same organic clutch surface. Plus the gearing in the Mini is so low that you're driving around at 2,500/3,000 RPMs all the time anyway. 75 on the freeway is 3,000 RPMS in 6th.

I would love a more difficult and heavier clutch take up. I really hope it ends up being a fun daily driver and not a chattering mess when I'm done.

Casper > PilotMan 11/01/2013 at 11:28

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Yeah, it's always a balancing act. If it doesn't pan out, back in you go to try another weight flywheel or clutch pairing. It is amazing how bad some cars get when people try to "improve" them with as light of a flywheel as possible paired with an insanely aggressive clutch.

I agree on the general design philosophy of Mini. People always tell me how amazing they feel to drive, but every one of them I have driven has felt mushy and lethargic. They feel much better once people start replacing all the "niceties" with real performance parts.

The Real Dacia Sandero > SteyrTMP 11/01/2013 at 13:41

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Even upgraded full kits from flying Miata are like 4-600 depending on if you get a new flywheel.

http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?dept…

SteyrTMP > The Real Dacia Sandero 11/02/2013 at 00:08

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I'll wait till I trash this one, then I have another OEM from the other engine... THEN I need to worry about another.