Lets Play a Quick Game of BRZ or That...

"Brian Silvestro" (BrianSilvestro) 10/19/2013 at 15:41 • Filed to: brz or that, brz, 911, 996

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So, Would you rather have a BRZ or a 996 911? Let's hear what oppo thinks!

newsmctado > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 15:42

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Porsche. No question.

GhostZ > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 15:43

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Not a competition. 911 all the way.

The only reason to get the BRZ is if you're scared of a used car and premium fuel costs.

Fred (FreddsterExprs) > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 15:44

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If it is a clean 996C2, preferably a early one, I take it anyday. I don't know why but I really like those early ones.

Brian Silvestro > newsmctado 10/19/2013 at 15:45

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I agree completely, I just wanted to see what people think with new vs used, warranty vs no warranty, etc... One of these is probably going to be my next car

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 15:46

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The best you could store in the trunk of the BRZ is a few helmets. Maybe 2. And a baguette and a bag. No thanks.

Brian Silvestro > Fred (FreddsterExprs) 10/19/2013 at 15:47

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For some reason, I seem to like the later headlights, (like in the picture) but it certainly isn't a dealbreaker. Thanks

vdub_nut: scooter snob > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 15:47

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Kind of a toss-up, but I'm almost inclined to go against the grain and say BR-Z. Not nearly as good a car, but dem repairs, dat insurance, muh depreciation.

Flip a coin, honestly.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 15:49

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996

The Millennial Falcon > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 15:51

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Porsche. Definitely need to go back to at least used Type 964 or 930 911's where longevity and condition stack up in the BRZ's favor. Even the base 930 engine would leave the Subaru in the dust by nearly a second 0-60.

Birddog > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 15:54

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The voice of logic escaped it's cage in my head and says that we could afford to maintain the BRZ for years to come in bliss.
If I can get that little puke locked back up I'll take the Porsche.
Because Porsche..

Brian Silvestro > vdub_nut: scooter snob 10/19/2013 at 15:55

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The depreciation is a thing to worry about especially if the car is bought around now, because in a few more years those 997's will start to look a lot more compelling

Aya, Almost Has A Cosmo With Toyota Engine Owned by a BMW. > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 15:57

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YOLO.

when it's start falling apart you can always sell it.

PanchoVilleneuve ST > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 15:59

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BRZ. I'm not an orthodontist.

GhostZ > Birddog 10/19/2013 at 16:00

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What you'll lose in depreciation on the BRZ probably more than makes up the difference in fuel and repairs on the 996.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 16:01

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Unless of course, we're talking low mileage garage-kept, in which case, 15 years from now it'll be back up in price as a collectors item.

Okay, maybe 20..

dogisbadob > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 16:03

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BRZ

Porsche should've nixed the 911 after the 993, and I hate how jealous and insecure Porsche is about it to the extent that they have to cripple the Boxster and Cayman

Mikeado > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 16:04

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I think the cost of maintenance for the 911 would be the cost of upgrades for the BRZ, so despite my loving of Porsche, I'm inclined to go Subaru on this one. I could get Litchfield to supercharge it and add their Performance Pack so I've got a 280bhp weapon that keeps the 996 honest. I think if we're talking water-cooled 911s I'd want a 997, which also affects my decision.

Brian Silvestro > vdub_nut: scooter snob 10/19/2013 at 16:04

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True, but those cars are being priced a lot higher now than the BRZ is

Milky > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 16:05

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Without a doubt BRZ .... 25k is 25k ...... but 25k plus out of warranty porsche? No Thanks, I'll take the one from the land of the rising sun.

Brian Silvestro > dogisbadob 10/19/2013 at 16:07

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I think your on the right track, the Boxster and Cayman have so much potential. Imagine if they made a Cayman Turbo ? wow.

Mosqvich > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 16:12

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A 996 will certainly be the most affordable. The lights are least desirable. According to Car and Driver (November 2013) magazine things to look out for are:

- Oil leaks

- Intermediate Shaft Bearing failure

- Door lock assembly breaks

- Window regulators fail

- ignition coil cracks

The window regulator and door lock issues will drive you bat-$hit crazy. My E46 eats window regulators and they break at the most inopportune times. You'll know the problem by listening to the windows going down, it'll sound like a crunching sound. The good news is that you can fix it yourself.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura 10/19/2013 at 16:16

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If you put the rear seats down, you can take 4 wheels and tires. Trunk space is pretty good. I moved into my apartment by taking everything in my FRS.

Brian Silvestro > Mosqvich 10/19/2013 at 16:17

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Thanks for the heads up on that, I feel like I can look past the headlights for the sake of driving pleasure

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 16:24

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996 Carrera 4 every time.

Subaru BLEW their chance, and Porsche is the ONLY coupe on the market with a flat 6 engine, manual gearbox, and ALL WHEEL DRIVE. Subaru hasn't offered that since the very rare Subaru XT6 5-speed AWD. SVX came close, and was called the working-man's Carrera 4, but wasn't offered with a factory-installed manual gearbox.

Plus... engine weight over the primary drive axle and working with natural physics of weight transfer under acceleration, also allowing a very low frontal area and low hoodline for aerodynamic efficiency, and high visibility.

Plus plus... 911's clean sleek looks. One of the cleanest generations of 911, with the fewest bits, pieces, rubber body seams and panel seals, or separate light fixtures, or extraneous grilles, overlapping lines, etc....

Narrow-body 996s, especially unadorned, and in darker colors, can look very lithe and simply sleek. They may not have been the most popular, after the pinnacle of air-cooled 911s, the 993, which was a hard act to follow... but I have a feeling, as they get older, they will be seen as their own kind of classics, in their own right.

Brian Silvestro > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 10/19/2013 at 16:28

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I can see where you're coming from, if this car had round headlights I think it would have been one of the best looking 911's ever made

Birddog > GhostZ 10/19/2013 at 16:31

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I don't normally worry about depreciation unless it's a business vehicle.
I buy cars I think are fun and dump them, usually at a loss. I had my fun and someone else can deal with the issues.
If I buy a vehicle for the long haul you can bet it's completely used up when I'm done with it..

B_dol > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 16:32

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BRZ, purely on the basis that the 996 body is ugly. If we are talking 997, Porsche all day.

This coming from a Toyobaru owner.

Brian Silvestro > B_dol 10/19/2013 at 16:36

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I agree, but 997's are about double the price of BRZ's right now

MtrRider Just Wants Doritos > PanchoVilleneuve ST 10/19/2013 at 16:47

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Porsche for me. Scions are for high schoolers and retirees.

Decay buys too many beaters > GhostZ 10/19/2013 at 16:51

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FYI, BRZ needs premium fuel as well

JasonStern911 > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 16:59

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You have to love a bunch of people online who have never owned a 996 complaining about how unreliable they are. That, or saying get a 997 or 993 despite those not being in the 996's price range.

Let's look at cost. You can get a nice, maintained 996 for $20-25. Meanwhile, a BRZ starts at $27k, plus tax, destination, dealer fees, service fees, DMV fees, etc. I have no idea where people come up with $25k from. That's for a base Scion pre-every free the dealer and government can throw at you. Out the door, you're at around $30k, which puts you close to 996TT territory. Or, you could buy a 996 and an NA Miata and still have cash left.

Next, let's look at this "well, for the money it costs to maintain the 911, you could supercharge/turbocharge/motor swap/whatever the BRZ." We already established that a BRZ will run $5-10k more than a well maintained 996. Replacing the entire motor with a junkyard motor after a catastrophic to the point the long block is not salvageable would cost about $10k including labor at an independent Porsche mechanic. So you already have a second motor before you have voided the warranty on the BRZ, which you have to do to get any power out of it - despite the warranty being a huge selling point for the BRZ. And, even then, the tuning market for the BRZ/FRS is in its infancy. Do you want to dump a ton of money and use your car to help everyone figure out what power mods work and are reliable and which ones aren't?

Let's look at performance. The 996 is hands down the better car when compared to the budget built FR-S/BRZ. We're going on fifteen years, and the 996 still has a minimum 96 more horsepower and 107 lb/ft of torque, better slalom speed, and higher skidpad grip. We're talking the difference between an 8:17 Nurburgring lap time versus a 9:09 . Completely different levels of performance.

Next, let's talk value. The second you drive that BRZ off of the lot, it is no longer a new car and depreciates 10%. Meanwhile, the 996 is near the bottom of the depreciation curve. Will they drop farther? Probably, only as the mileage of models increase and their condition worsens. A well maintained 996 has a much higher chance of retaining its value over both the short and long term than the BRZ. A mint condition AE86 goes for what, 6-8k maybe? How much would a mint 911 of that era go for?

Plus, you have the prestige of owning a Porsche over a Scion. Sure, that's a superficial reason, but if you tell a girl you own a Porsche 911, they know enough to be impressed, because girls like shiny things and the 911 is a shiny thing. If you tell them you drive a Subaru, they'll think that is very practical and say that their mom owns one. If you tell them you drive a Scion, they'll probably either ask you what a Scion is or think they are those budget Toyotas. And, yes, there are exceptions to the rule. But "maybe you can meet a girl that knows what a GT86 really is" is not a selling point. To each their own, though. I'm sure plenty of kids grow up going, "Someday, when I grow up, I'm going to be rich enough to buy a Scion..." :P

Finally, the reliability of the BRZ/FRS is entirely speculative at this point. It's based on the belief that boring, beige Toyotas/Subarus that are driven boringly by middle aged people are reliable, thus the BRZ/FRS should perfectly handle hitting redline and being drifted/tracked for years at a time. Not saying they will be unreliable - just pointing out their reliability is, at this point, speculative.

So, now that we have established the 996's superiority...

The trick is finding one in great shape with service records. The 996 is much, much more common than the 993s, so this is doable if you're patient. And that's really the trick - be very patient. I spent 9 months to a year looking before finding the one I bought, and even then, I didn't get all-wheel drive which I wanted...

Second, there are some preventative repairs/maintenance that should be done depending on the mileage. If you're looking at a 60k car that hasn't had the water pump replaced, talk the owner out the cost of doing that. Then, when the motor is dropped, in addition to the water pump, replace the intermediate shaft bearing, air/oil separator, clutch, rear main seal, and spark plugs. The total cost from a trusted independent Porsche mechanic should be around ~$2,600. But guess what? You just addressed nearly every weakness of the 996. And even overpaying for a 996, and doing preventative repairs, you're still money ahead.

As far as complaints go, when you're stuck in stop-go-stop-go traffic, you'll feel bad wasting 95% of the 996's potential. And the potential is so high that you can't really push it legally on any public street. But again, you could get a 996, fix all of the known trouble areas, and buy a Miata for bitch traffic duty for the price of a BRZ...

Parts are expensive. The forums help a lot, and the community is great. But there's no getting around how expensive some parts are.

But I will give the BRZ this - the handling when you do break traction is very predictable. I don't break traction in my 996 very often, but when I do, I am going way too fast, and the whole "keep your foot on the throttle" is completely unintuitive, and thus I will never master it.

Damn. Long post. I'm done ranting.

Brian Silvestro > JasonStern911 10/19/2013 at 17:11

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You sir, have won this post. No further commenting please.

McLarry > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 17:23

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Which would I rather have? 996.

Which would I rather pay for? BRZ.

Which would I be more likely to actually buy? Hmmm.... 996

Squid > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 17:24

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What you said. I think it should be a higher mileage 996 TT v. BRZ. I'd still take the 996 once all preventative maintenance is done. I do believe that the 996 is near its bottom of the depreciation curve so really they are looking like a good deal to get. I honestly don't mind the looks of the 996 that much. Granted I have only driven one Porsche before and it was a 996, but I am still in awe of how light and responsive the steering was.

In my mind the 996 wins this hands down. I realized how affordable the 996's were about 2 years ago when I saw a 996 cab with only 60,000 on the clock going for $24,000 asking price.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 17:27

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I'd say the Porsche, but don't go for it unless you have the funds to maintain it.
BRZ is more of a "cheap thrills" deal, but the 996 is the more grown up of the two
personally, i'd take the Porsche, but I couldn't afford the insurance/gas/upkeep for it

simon_C > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 17:35

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I'd MUCH rather have the Porsche. More fun to tinker with.

Atomic Buffalo > JasonStern911 10/19/2013 at 17:40

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The girl that knows what a GT86 really is would probably slap you when you told her you chose an engine-modded Scion over a well-sorted 996.

B_dol > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 17:51

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Valid point. In that case, any Carrera variant sans rag-top wins for me.

Brian Silvestro > B_dol 10/19/2013 at 17:53

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Agreed!

Mosqvich > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 18:06

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For sure. I don't think any of the issues are deal breakers. Porsche build top quality cars. You could drive it, literally, for the rest of your life and never question why you bought a Porsche. The BRZ is a fine car, but they just don't compare.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 18:07

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There are these:

But as much as people hate on those headlights... I have always kind of liked their allusion to the original 911 headlights and turn-signals and vent grilles.

It is sort of a unified interpretation of a lighting group.

And if you really want round headlights, there is a conversion kit to 997 headlights and indicators, or there are masks, vinyl, or thicker plastic.

Brian Silvestro > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 10/19/2013 at 18:10

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Wow those lights are cool, I'm sure there are unlimited aftermarket options for a car like this

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 18:38

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How's about a lightly used BRZ with a supercharger?

Oh, and proper unequal length headers so it sounds like a real Subaru.

Biapilotaceman > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 18:39

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I'd get a Boxster S instead and enjoy having two seats and the sky to myself :P
Honestly though, I almost think I'd rather take a Boxster over a 911. That's how much I enjoyed mine. What you lose in power you make up in handling and there's a huge amount of cargo space with two trunks. Although parts would be pricey, most of the maintenance is easy enough to do on your own. It was made to be easy to service, believe it or not.

BKRM3 > JasonStern911 10/19/2013 at 19:31

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This is the exact answer. Very thankful I didn't have to type it. Both cool cars, but c'mon. 996 every time.

CCC (formerly CyclistCarCoexist) > Brian Silvestro 10/19/2013 at 23:12

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At least the BRZ is reliable. Porsches aren't. BRZ........bitch.

Jfelty19 > Brian Silvestro 10/20/2013 at 00:23

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my pick is that oh so sweet flat six 996

JasonStern911 > JasonStern911 10/21/2013 at 23:40

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A couple more random thoughts in retrospect:

The biggest advantage the BRZ/FR-S has is financing if you cannot pay cash for the 996. However, many credit unions are very generous about helping to finance a used car if you work with them. The interest rates will likely be higher, but you're getting the car you want. And really, if you don't have the disposable income to buy either car, you should get something cheaper like a NB Miata and save your money.

If you don't drive aggressive, the BRZ/FR-S will likely outlast the 996 with respect to repairs and maintenance. However, if you aren't a driver and don't want a driver's car, there are much better deals value-wise than the BRZ/FR-S.

I really hope the BRZ/FR-S doesn't suffer the fate of the 240SX where it depreciates to a point where they get picked up by first time tuners that lack the funds to properly build the car, but I could definitely see that happening. But also given the sales numbers, I can see the BRZ/FR-S doing what the WRX/STi/EVO did and depreciate some, but not proportional to the mileage. Both of those leave me a little concerned about being able to predict when the best time to buy is based on the depreciation curve...

JasonStern911 > Squid 10/21/2013 at 23:53

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While not as raw as the 993s and their predecessors, the early 996s are the last 911s to have the ability to have a cable actuated throttle, no traction control, a six speed manual transmission, and hydraulic power steering. So while they are still not simple cars by any means, many of the differences between the early 996s and the 993s are to make the cars more alluring as daily drivers to Americans. Does that make it less of a 911? Possibly. But does that make the 996 a bad car? I'd have to say no.