World War Oppo: Budget MRs

"Justin Young" (jus1029) 10/20/2013 at 09:01 • Filed to: World War Oppo, Pontiac Fiero, Toyota MR2

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Welcome to World War Oppo, where two similar cars yet different from each other battle it out and you decide on who wins. 2 weeks ago, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! were the fighters of our ring, but 68% of the voters led the European model to victory. Today, I decided to do things differently by choosing very different cars to battle in our war zone. They are the Pontiac Fiero and the Toyota MR2, the Budget MRs.

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General Motors thought of making a sporty two-door Pontiac to match the levels of a Corvette. They envisioned it to have a big V6 engine and, but in 1980s when it was a green light for GM to produce their sports car, the oil crisis entered USA. It was pointless to create a big engine, so it was downgraded to an Iron Duke 2.5-liter engine. The idea of a mid-engine layout was brought out to the engineers since it reduces aerodynamic drag and fuel consumption. Thus, the Pontiac Fiero was born. Since the budget in manufacturing it was low, it contained components from other GM economy cars. The tires were also economy treads, so cornering and handling were issues. It was a major let-down of the brand's expectations.

When the oil crisis left, GM saw the opportunity of bringing their real ideas to life. So in 1986, the Fiero GT was introduced with sporty suspensions, wider tires a sleeker design and a bigger V6 engine. However, the reliability and power failed in many ways. With the facelift in '87, the Fiero got better with new suspensions designed by themselves with help from their racing program. They even resorted into making a Ferrari-replica, Pontiac-approved Pontiac Mera. Only 247 were made because the people of Maranello sued their kit cars. To this date, it is the most collectible Fiero ever made and also the last of the bunch.

Back in 1976, Toyota had a goal to make a car that was economical and fun to drive at the same time, but their first plan wasn't a sports car. When they sorted out the engine layout to the middle, they got to the point where it evolved into a sports coupe, to become the MR2. ( M id-engined, R ear-wheel-drive, 2 -seater) Sales started in 1984, the same year when the Fiero was debuted, it had a choice of a 3A-LU, 4A-GE and 4A-GZE engines, all inline-4's. Unlike GM, Toyota's four cylinder was very peppy and faster. And, the Mk. 1 lasted until 1989, a year after the Fiero's demise.

The MR2 lived on in the 90's with a complete redesign with softer edges and a targa top variant. While there's still the i4's, the engine changed into 3S-GTE, 3S-GE and 5S-FE. Toyota took the MR2 to a whole new level as they used its platform for a Le Mans monster, dubbed the SARD (Sigma Advanced Racing Development) MC8-R. Despite being eligible for the GT1 category, its performance didn't match with the Porsches and Benzes, so it either finish last or didn't finish at all. Of course like any other GT1 racers, there was a road-going version of the MC8, but its current state is still a mystery.

The Mk. 3, known as MR-S/MR2 Spyder for its convertible-only body, was the last of the breed...and also the worst in my opinion. It was part of Toyota's Project Genesis, a project aimed to attract youngsters for US market. Unfortunately, it failed to bring in millennials and lost the MR2 lovers in the process. Soon, the project was brought to an end, and Toyota USA decided to introduce a separate marque now known as Scion. And with that, Toyota sacked the MR2 of its lineup. After the company's return of sporty models, starting with the Toyota 86/Scion FRS, eager fans await its comeback.

Both are mid-engine, rear-wheel-drive and basis for Ferrari and Lamborghini replicas. Who will win, east or west?

Let's get ready to rumble!

For now, watch this Motorweek comparison of the two cars back in 1988.

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Squid > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 09:12

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I LOL'd at the I would drive 500 miles in this line at the poll. I want to take my vote back.... But if you make Frankensteins out of them the Fiero wins, but really for an out of the box sports car it is most definitely the MR-2. I don't know why but I have loved the wedge of the AW-11 and the silly snorkel of the SW-20 turbo's.

webmonkees > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 09:13

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The Mera, yes. 1/247 Kit car with factory pedigree? Sure. Fails the 'Budget" part.

Firewrx234 > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 09:18

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88 Fiero with the 3800 series II S/C is the way to go. Very little in the way of modification and getting 240 HP and 280 torque out of something that size is amazing. Besides, all of the kinks had been routed out by this point and they had the better suspension setup a available. Great choice IMO.

Justin Young > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 09:20

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To those curious, this is the SARD MC8/-R

Bluecold > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 09:24

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Matra Murena >> pontiac fiero and mr2 combined
Why? For starters, Matra has multiple victories at Le Mans ánd F1. Toyota has failed a few times on that podium, GM has a few class wins at Le Mans, but no outright wins. And they haven't even tried at F1. Also, the Matra has three seats. The Matra looks better. And to top that all off, the Matra does not rust.

GhostZ > Firewrx234 10/20/2013 at 09:48

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FYI, the second-gen MR2 turbo had 240HP out of the box, and made up to 280HP in other Toyota models, (and is known to touch low 300 with a little modification) and weighed less than the Fiero, right?

Not arguing that the MR2 is a better car, but you can't use power as a way to argue for the Fiero.

Hoccy > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 09:52

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Voted the MR2, and would have the 1st generation. Think that is the coolest, with the sharp lines and all the 80's vibe.

Firewrx234 > GhostZ 10/20/2013 at 10:11

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Valid, I was just using it to show that it can pack a punch out of a stock 3800 Series II S/C and with a little modification this puppy would be better than that image of a flaming Pontiac on the side of the road. Besides, I had also mentioned the upgraded suspension and general upgrades that the 88 had over the 86 and earlier ones that everyone remembers.

davedave1111 > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 10:25

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I've never actually seen a Fiero in person, let alone been in one, but from everything I'd heard they're a complete joke. Is there actually enough to them that this isn't the complete mismatch I'd have assumed? Going by the way people generally talk about the Fiero on here, it's like asking 'Camry or 3 Series?'

So is the Fiero GT actually a decent car?

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > Bluecold 10/20/2013 at 10:27

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Well, although GM hasn't even tried racing F1 (a shame IMO), remember they were highly successful in the CART championship, which is pretty much the second best thing when regarding single-seaters anyway.

Gothmog3VZ - Twin AW11's > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 10:48

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MR2 all the way. However, if you're handy with tools, you can combine the best of the MK1 (light weight and aggressive handling) with the best of the MK2 (3S-GTE power), and get a MK1.5 (which is what I've got).

280hp/ton with the most basic of mods, 300+ is easy. I have one outside right now, haven't dynoed it yet but I'm expecting that it cranks out about 240-250 whp (in a car weighing ~1020 kg with the stuff I stripped). It's a veritable monster.

Also, the while the Fiero got good right before it was canned, the MR2 was fantastic from the get-go :)

Gothmog3VZ - Twin AW11's > Squid 10/20/2013 at 10:49

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When it comes to frankensteins, look up the Mk1.5 swap or the 2GR V6 conversions for the MR2's, I think that might sway your opinion slightly ;)

RatMR2 > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 10:57

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Got to be the MR2, although I might be biased in this case...

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 11:00

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'88 Fiero and LS swap it. That might destroy most cars in a race.

Gothmog3VZ - Twin AW11's > RatMR2 10/20/2013 at 11:09

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shhhh, let the bias flow through you!

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 12:18

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This surprisingly good Motorweek compared the two and makes me want both. Still, I'd have to go with the Japanese perfection that is the MR2.

Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection > davedave1111 10/20/2013 at 12:25

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The 87 and 88 Fieros were reasonably decent if you got a Formula or GT. The Formula got the go-slightly-faster goodies like the 2.8 V-6 and 5-speed stick along with the improved suspension, but wrapped in the older body. Remember that 8-86 models were all either 4-speed sticks or 3-speed autoboxes. They didn't have the go to match their show.

Here's an 87 or 88 Formula:

The GT got the new body style and was easily the best-looking Pontiac for a long time since.

The 84-86 models were definitely jokes. 87-88 definitely stepped up the game. There were rumors of a Quad-4 powered 89 model with upwards of 180 hp to come but that didn't materialize. It's a shame.

I've been in a friend's 88 Formula. It's suprisingly roomy and didn't feel very cheap inside — it had the same seats as the top-line Grand Am or base Formula Firebird — cloth high-back buckets that were supportive and comfortable. With the 15" alloys and Goodyear Gatorbacks, it handled pretty well.

That said, I'd rather have an 88 or 89 MR2 S/C

OttoMaddox > Justin Young 10/20/2013 at 12:46

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"A JDM tuner's wet dream" Yes, the MR2 was definitely the spunkier of the two.

RatMR2 > Gothmog3VZ - Twin AW11's 10/20/2013 at 23:00

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Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the bias to be honest. It's not like we ever got the Fiero down here in Oz anyway, so I'm happy to stick with the Midship Runabout - mine's an 88 SC, with leakier targa panels than I would like. There are a couple sale locally (locally might be a bit of a stretch - one is 1300km away, the other 2000km, but Australia is a big place) which are very tempting:

The first one is a Supercharged 87 , which looks fantastic (except for the wheels - too big in my opinion), but at $32K is a bit unreasonable, the second is an N/A 87 which looks clean and would probably be a great basis for modification.

Looking at yours in a reply below, that's a clean looking car - nice work. Have you made any suspension or brake modifications to keep up with the engine, or does the stock setup work well enough with it?

Gothmog3VZ - Twin AW11's > RatMR2 10/21/2013 at 13:37

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Running drilled/slotted/vented rotors with hawk HPS as far as brakes go, put in a Cusco 1.5 LSD back in august and installing some KYB GR2's and Eibach springs this winter along with a set of SuspensTech sways to round out the suspension! Suspension is ok right now, but my shocks are somewhat worn so this should sharpen her up nicely!

$32k for a supercharged, OUCH that's expensive! Guy I know bought one here for ~$3k, and I haven't seen one sell above $5k.

As far as the Targa roof, they always leak, but Twos'r'us has a set of eccentric T-top guides for about $15 that can help with the sealing! What have you got done to yours?

Gothmog3VZ - Twin AW11's > RatMR2 10/21/2013 at 13:38

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Running drilled/slotted/vented rotors with hawk HPS as far as brakes go, put in a Cusco 1.5 LSD back in august and installing some KYB GR2's and Eibach springs this winter along with a set of SuspensTech sways to round out the suspension! Suspension is ok right now, but my shocks are somewhat worn so this should sharpen her up nicely!

$32k for a supercharged, OUCH that's expensive! Guy I know bought one here for ~$3k, and I haven't seen one sell above $5k.

As far as the Targa roof, they always leak, but Twos'r'us has a set of eccentric T-top guides for about $15 that can help with the sealing! What have you got done to yours?

TheNeonDriver - Now with More BMW! > Firewrx234 10/30/2013 at 23:00

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I have been part of one of these conversions, and I will attest to it's potential as a fast little car. Especially when the owner never gets around to putting the interior back in....

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Justin Young 10/30/2013 at 23:06

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bah, everyone hates on the MR-S, but it's a really capable car.

It out handles the previous two generations and will out pace all but the turbo SW20.

I probably wouldn't own one over my SW20, but I feel like I'm always coming to it's defence like an older brother or something.

Reigntastic > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 10/30/2013 at 23:47

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Why bother though? They're just so ugly, if you can somehow look past the ~120hp weed whacker motor, or loss of a functional trunk.

kenhitch > Justin Young 10/30/2013 at 23:53

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Both are good. The Fiero GTs and Formulas were better than they got credit for, and I think are a seriously cheap way to get a fun track beater. And of course we all know the MR2 is great lol.

Reigntastic > Justin Young 10/31/2013 at 00:03

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I'd want an SW20 after the '93 suspension revision. 3s-GTE engine is a definite winner, and drop dead gorgeous looks are nice.

I'm biased.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Reigntastic 10/31/2013 at 00:29

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looks are subjective, so I won't argue there.
Their output was closer to 140hp, and they were around 996kg's.

a manual one will outpace a BRZ/86 and any factory spec MX-5 (except maybe the 2013 club edition).

Reigntastic > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 10/31/2013 at 01:03

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Looks are definitely subjective, I will give it some praise in that it had some guts in being a revolutionary design, even if it wasn't too popular for it.

It's great that it can outpace modern cars, but that makes me more disappointed in our affordable offerings now rather than proud of the little mk3. I'd have liked it more if it wasn't almost 2 seconds slower to 60 than the SW20, which is still faster than the miata/frs, while being 20 years old. They aren't even very fast, my 250r had a better 0-60 with a 27hp (proper weed whacker engine there), and that was considered a commuter.

Both are slow, one is just beige slow.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Reigntastic 10/31/2013 at 01:11

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uh.. the manual ZW30's can do 0-60 in around 6.6, which is only half a second slower than the turbo SW20's. or a full second slower than the JDM rev3's

Reigntastic > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 10/31/2013 at 01:21

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Pretty conservative 0-60 times you'll find there on wiki, it's easy to clock sub 6 0-60 in a turbo. Regardless, 9 years of research and they made a slower car. Especially since you can find MK2 turbo's at the same price as the MK3, I don't understand the desire to have the ugly duckling of the bunch.

Otherwise, I'm not a fan of the convertibles. I'm not a huge fan of the T-Tops either though, but I like having a proper roof.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Reigntastic 10/31/2013 at 01:51

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I always thought the USDM Turbo's were slower. My JDM one will get sub 6 seconds easy enough (according to my GPS), I'm not running stock boost pressure though. I'm guessing it's 10psi or so.

I'm just saying they aren't a bad car by any stretch, of course I agree the SW20 is a better car (otherwise I wouldn't be on my 2nd one and typing this while wearing an MR2 SW20 shirt), I just think the little Spyder cops more than it's fair share of hate.

Reigntastic > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 10/31/2013 at 02:19

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Yeah, it just takes a little boost controller and some self control, and the engines are pretty capable while stock, even if they're a 2nd gen 3S-GTE instead of the 3rd gen (JDM spec).

I just honestly wish the spyder wasn't a spyder. If it had a hardtop, I could forgive the rest; but something about that soft top just makes me dislike them. It's funny to hear about all the guys who have had more than one sw20, I'm still on my first though. What made you get a second, out of curiosity? Better condition, or what?

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Reigntastic 10/31/2013 at 03:01

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My new one is a JDM '90 GT with a boost controller and catback exhaust, but it has the factory boost gauge so NFI what boost it's really running, seller said 10psi. I'll be getting an Omori gauge to put in the cluster, after I've replaced the shitty atmo BOV with a plumb-back.

My old green '95 Bathurst model got rear ended and written off. Insurance money paid for the new one, with only 96kkms, the old one had 250,000 on it an needed a respray. Apart from the scar on my head I'd be thanking the lady for hitting me :p

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Justin Young 10/31/2013 at 09:40

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I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

m2m, apex detective > Justin Young 10/31/2013 at 09:59

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Very related: this happens when you give the last-gen. MR2 the 2ZZ engine from the Celica and poke it with a stick.

YT clip: Tsuchiya plays togue; 192 hp MR2 (2ZZ) vs a 320 rwhp S15 with tricky dampers

I came away a bit impressed with the speed the MR2 did ... and while I'm not much of a fan of its looks, I still like the car for the no-nonsence approach.

Casper > Justin Young 10/31/2013 at 10:22

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The MR2s always were much better cars. Even with the v6 option, the Fieros were slow, poorly designed, and lacked brakes/suspension quality needed to upgrade. Even the awful looking MR-S was a much better car.

Casper > Firewrx234 10/31/2013 at 10:27

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Still, even at their pinnacle they were woefully lacking. That's why GM gave up on them so quickly. Every generation of MR2 was able to be more reliable and out perform them. By 88 they thought they were making headway only to find out Toyota had the SW20 coming their way in 89... and was a car that walked circles around them.

The Fiero was a continuous run of "too little too late".

Casper > Reigntastic 10/31/2013 at 10:30

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The biggest difference were just the bars in the 93s. You could upgrade earlier cars pretty easily. I personally raced a 93 because I wanted to run stock class without having to guess what might out of class me if I changed earlier cars because I didn't do it enough to really know the class requirements.

SW20s are where it's at. They were the best of the MR2s.

Casper > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 10/31/2013 at 10:33

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People drop V8s in MR2s with greater success. The chassis is a little better sorted for the power and the huge parts market makes it easier to mix and match what you need to get the car dialed with the weight change.

Here's a video of one with an Audi v8:

Here's a pic of a Northstar crammed into one:

Wonk Unit > Justin Young 10/31/2013 at 10:33

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I voted with my wallet. Went with the Señor Dos.

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Reigntastic > Casper 10/31/2013 at 10:45

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I'd argue that the SW20's are some of the best to come out of Toyota, up there with the GT86, Supra MK3 and MK4, and Celica AWD.

Casper > Reigntastic 10/31/2013 at 10:50

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Yeah, I haven't been a huge fan of the lines, but they have made some great cars. The MR2 is by far my favorite.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Justin Young 10/31/2013 at 11:28

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Affordable mid engined cars are far to rare to be fodder for fighting over anything...

Proponents of affordable mid-engined sports cars should be calling for a modern one. (and one with a bigger than 0-cubic feet trunk like W30 MR2 Spyder)

PhiLOL (slowcarSLOW-MPGlol) > Wonk Unit 10/31/2013 at 13:35

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I enjoyed reading that when you originally posted it and again when you just posted it.

PhiLOL (slowcarSLOW-MPGlol) > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/31/2013 at 13:37

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I agree, just pay more up front to pay less down the road. A clean, reliable 'Teener can be had for roughly the same as a comparable SW20.

Reigntastic > Casper 10/31/2013 at 19:47

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Yeah, they don't seem to stick to tradition well. Names don't mean much to them.