Why you'll pay more for your CO2 friendly car

"DCCARGEEK" (dccargeek)
10/10/2013 at 09:56 • Filed to: CAFE, fuel economy

Just before the government’s partial shutdown EPA published a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for public comment from Mercedes Benz requesting additional off-cycle credits.

First, what are off-cycle credits?

These are credits automakers can earn through the use of technology that reduce real world carbon emissions but are not captured under normal testing.

Starting in 2014 automakers will use EPA’s preapproved menu for off-cycle technology credits ( Table II-22—Off-Cycle Technologies and Credits and Equivalent Fuel Consumption Improvement Values for Cars and Light Trucks ), which includes things like Solar Reflective Paint and Active Seat Ventilation.

Automakers are also permitted to present their own data if they believe their technologies prove to be more valuable than EPA’s “pre-approved menu analysis “or if the agency doesn’t yet capture the benefits of the new technology.

The notice listed four technologies Mercedes Benz claims will reduce their carbon emissions and that the automaker should be entitled to additional off-cycle credits towards their manufacturer's fleet average.

Those technologies include Engine Stop-Start, High Efficiency Exterior Lighting, Infrared Glazing and Active Seat Ventilation.

Start-Stop

This was an interesting request. While the EPA’s Extended Idle Activity within the MOVES Model defines standard idle times for the purpose of emissions standards, Mercedes Benz decided to conduct their own study on idle times.

The German automaker tracked 29 vehicles, totaling 311K miles, and determined that their cars on average idle 23.83% of the time they are in operation.

Mercedes also obtained data from Progressive Insurance to support their claim. Progressive provided the automaker with data from Mercedes Benz vehicles enrolled in the Snap Shot program. This program allows drivers to plug in a small device to capture their driving habits and if they drive safe, reduce their insurance costs.

The Snap Shot data said that of Mercedes Benz vehicles in the program they had an idle activity time of 23.9%.

Interesting that Progressive shares (or sells?) their customer’s driving habits to a manufacturer to support a regulatory decision.

Based on this data Mercedes Benz is asking for a bump of 2 g/mi CO2 over the standard EPA allocation due in part to a higher idle fleet percentage and other advancements in start stop such as an electric heater circulation pump and an additional 12V battery. Mercedes-Benz calculated an engine stop-start credit of 11.0 g/mi CO2 for small size cars; 9.1 g/mi CO 2 for mid-size cars; 19.0 g/mi CO 2 for large size cars; and 17.1 g/mi CO 2 for light-duty trucks

High Efficiency Exterior Lighting

This request is a pretty straightforward formula using a standard measure. This request will provide the automaker with a bump of 1.1 g/mi CO2

Infrared Glazing

This is also another standard measure captured under EPA’s approved menu and is worth 0.8-1.7 g/mi CO2 to the German automaker. This number can vary depending on the amount of glass and the performance of the glaze. In total this technology can net the automaker up to 2.9 g/mi CO2 for cars and 3.9 g/mi CO2 for trucks.

Active Seat Ventilation

Yes, a luxury feature like cooled seats will net an automaker fuel economy credits. Mercedes Benz is asking to apply standard measurements developed for the 2014 model year to it’s 2012 vehicles in this request which would net the automaker a credit of 1.0 g/mi CO2 for cars and 1.3 g/mi CO2 for trucks.

Conclusion :

As you can see here these credits are minuscule, but packaged together they add up, totaling almost 23 g/mi CO2 depending on vehicle configuration.

If automakers lean too much on advanced technologies to meet their carbon emissions standards, as opposed to actual fuel economy improvements, you can be assured that vehicle prices will increase dramatically.

If your next Focus, Cruze or Corolla comes equipped with all the technology features listed in EPA’s preapproved menu, as opposed to an advanced internal combustion engine or transmission, we could see an increase in vehicle costs for technologies that many of us would consider superfluous. Also, if vehicle prices continue on their current trajectory, it would require even longer loan terms to maintain the current level of monthly payments.

While ventilated seats won’t be standard any time soon, I expect to see more and more of these costly technologies finding their way into everyday cars. The question is will people be willing to pay for the premiums and will depreciation schedules allow creditors to extend loan terms beyond the current norm of 72 months.

DISCUSSION (55)

Z_Stig > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 10:00

Will a ventilated seat harvest the methane gas every time you fart in one? Sounds eco-friendly.

Party-vi > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 10:05

Snap Shot is an OBDII recorder that you plug into your car for 3 months. After that period you send it in to Progressive who then pull the data and analyze your driving habits - late braking, excessive G forces, lots of traction control interference etc. and they provide you a reduced premium for better driving habits. Progressive anonymizes this data and uses it in industry studies and also provides the data back to manufacturers. This should be the topic for another discussion though, as it's easy enough to take anonymized data and extrapolate identifiable information from it.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Party-vi
10/10/2013 at 10:24

In short, monitoring of the customer can eat mine. Shorts, that is.

DCCARGEEK > Party-vi
10/10/2013 at 10:32

Very interesting and thanks for the insight.

While I don't have a problem with this from a privacy perspective, I'd be more curious if it was made available to the OEM or they had to pay for it.

Party-vi > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 10:33

I'm sure there's some sort of agreement (for money or not) that states Progressive can provide driving data to manufacturers at their request - maybe FOI act?

DCCARGEEK > Party-vi
10/10/2013 at 10:37

I sent a note to Progressive to see how exactly this agreement works.

Cloud81918 > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 10:38

"Interesting that Progressive shares (or sells?) their customer’s driving habits to a manufacturer to support a regulatory decision."

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 10:38

Ventilated seats need to become as prevalent as heated seats. It's time for Europe/Detroit/Japan to realize that, while they spend half the year freezing their asses off, a good chunk of this country spends half the year sweating our assess of. Long overdue shit!

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Z_Stig
10/10/2013 at 11:15

My thoughts exactly. Although, without a means to capture said CH4, you're really just recycling your own farts with seat ventilation..

asbsvc > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 11:16

Clearly, we need the EPA. Jesus christ, every time I see drivel like this I thank my lucky stars that the Autotrader.com website has a "used" car search engine. More useless government intrusion. Let me guess, electric parking brakes stem from this nonsense?

ATX211 > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
10/10/2013 at 11:17

They really are fucking awesome, but it really does take a while to not feel like you have wet pants.

Something that GM has finally started doing is adding the option for the seat ventilation/heater to come on with the remote vehicle start. Pretty interesting, and nice when you have to surface park when it is 105 outside.

philipilihp > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
10/10/2013 at 11:17

I can't stand the heated seat feeling, but ventilated seats would be ON in my car every time I sat down.

AustinBenji > Party-vi
10/10/2013 at 11:19

Just finished my stint in SnapShot. It's 6 months, updates wirelessly (3G?) fairly often (you can check out your driving habits and it's typically up to date within the minute), and the only metric they claim to judge your driving on is if you break at more than 7mph/s...which happened to me a lot at the beginning, but once I started running late yellows instead of stopping, I brought this number down.

I averaged less than 1 "hard stop" per day and still didn't qualify for a discount...kinda disappointing.

AustinBenji > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 11:22

You agree to have your vehicle speed monitored. They agree that the program cannot be used to raise your rates. It doesn't track location or anything like that...it doesn't even track braking vs. coasting. In my car, uphill, letting off the gas at ~90mph constituted a hard brake (7mph/s), so if you get it and you're on the Texas autobahn and passing uphill, don't let off the gas or you'll be judged as a bad driver.

Party-vi > AustinBenji
10/10/2013 at 11:25

When I signed up they offered it, and I thought for a moment about my driving habits, and declined as quickly as possible haha

Garland - Last Top Comment on Splinter > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 11:27

When it comes to cars, you know what's the very worst for the environment? Building new cars. The vast majority of a car's environmental impact comes from its initial manufacturing.

If you really want to help the environment, buy an old car and do a few little upgrades and maintenance on the engine, and you'll do far more to help the environment than buying a brand new Mercedes with ventilated seats.

Menebrio > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 11:33

I live in a Tropical region, winter is barely 2 months long (more like its spread in a 4 month period; might be cold one weekend, hot as balls on a Monday). So I would gladly exchange a heating seat for a ventilated one since it doesn't even snow here.

Meatcoma > Cloud81918
10/10/2013 at 11:36

This is for credits that I assume save MB some money. I wonder how much money is saved per vehicle vs cost of data. Example(using entirely made up figures) - MB paid Progressive $500k for data, US gov gives them $1k per car credit, MB sells 20,000 cars with a profit of extra $1k - 20 mil. 19.5 million profit from savings. Seems lucrative.

Chad Deraps > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 11:36

I am a little perplexed by the conclusion. It implies that a more efficient engine would be lest costly per g/mi of CO2 than ventilated seats. An auto manufacturer is going to find the cheapest way to reduce CO2 emmissions possible, while also maintaining a desire for their cars.

Say a company needs to reduce emissions by 13g CO2. They can get 12g of reduction from the engine for an average price of $1000 per gram but to get the thirteen gram reduction it would cost $1500 per g. Now say heated seats add $2000, so $2000 per gram. It would be less costly per gram to do the 12g reduction engine and ventilated seats than the 13g reduction engine. If, say the ventilated cost $10,000 it would be less costly to use the 13g reduction engine. A company making cars in a price competitive market is not going to use the more costly option.

So in the end the "average" car price should dependent on the cost to meet emission standards.

RW53104 > Z_Stig
10/10/2013 at 11:40

So glad I'm not the only one that thinks like that.

RW53104 > Z_Stig
10/10/2013 at 11:40

Then we can harvest CO2 credits and sell them to Mercedes!

scruffinater > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 11:42

I'm afraid I have to take issue with the assumption that these technologies are any more expensive than advanced powertrain technologies. If it can be shown that they net real world CO2 emissions improvements, guess what? That means they net real world fuel economy improvements, whether they are captured in EPA or Euro fuel economy standards or not.

For once, I would say the government is going about this in a reasonable manner. Instead of mandating specific technologies to become standard that are recognized to reduce emmissions, they are allowing auto makers to take credit for said technologies if they choose to offer them in their vehicles. This way, if manufacturers can't make a business case for a technology (because say consumers won't pay the premium for it), they don't have to offer it. What a crazy concept, I know.

Also, I would gladly pay the premium for stop/start, ventilated seats, and low-e glass in my next car. None of those are overly complicated tech at this point, and they all make real differences. Heck, many of us are paying to put low-e windows in our houses, so why wouldn't we pay to have low-e windows in our cars?

Just sayin'....

AustinBenji > Party-vi
10/10/2013 at 11:42

I skipped on it for a while as well, but when I found out that all they cared about was hard braking, I figured I'd be good (I don't tailgate, and I brake pretty early). Turns out I was wrong.

bobrayner > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 11:44

Ventilated seats really can reduce fuel burn - using mine means that I need much less airco. And the airco is an inefficient heat engine which has to work hard to cool half the cabin, rather than just wafting a bit of fresh air over my backside.

DCCARGEEK > Chad Deraps
10/10/2013 at 12:10

You also have to factor in potential for profits. If an automaker can eek out a few extra dollars in profit on top of the the benefit of a carbon emission reduction - isn't that a win-win for the automaker?

The buyer would be hit with a higher vehicle price, but as I stated, that would be minimal if terms are kicked out further (i.e. 96 months).

DCCARGEEK > Chad Deraps
10/10/2013 at 12:11

The buyer would be hit with a higher vehicle price, but as I stated, that would be minimal if terms are kicked out further (i.e. 96 months).

DCCARGEEK > Chad Deraps
10/10/2013 at 12:13

The buyer would be hit with a higher vehicle price, but as I stated, that would be minimal if terms are kicked out further (i.e. 96 months).

deekster_caddy > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom
10/10/2013 at 12:17

Sooo, Active Seat Ventilation sucks air away from your ass, ventilating it, not blowing air into the seat as we expected? Neat!

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > deekster_caddy
10/10/2013 at 12:19

I think it does blow air into the seat, hence the fart recycling comment

Cloud81918 > Meatcoma
10/10/2013 at 12:20

Kinja did an awesome job of not saving my complete post. But basically Progressive's system is a huge data mining project for exactly these kinds of things. I will become worth a lot of money. But I think several insurances will make this required soon.

DCCARGEEK > bobrayner
10/10/2013 at 12:20

But is that really true? I crank up the A/C to high regardless of the cooled seats. Typically I'm wearing a suit and I can't feel the ventilated seats through my wool polyester blend.

BamaSS > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 12:20

If the list of allowables includes things related to manufacturing, then I can see some benefit. A large part of the emissions of any vehicle (20-50% depending on who you read) comes from the manufacture, before it's even been driven a single mile. Things like the electricity to extract the aluminum from bauxite. If manufacturers clean up their assembly plants then I'm OK with them getting credit for that. Hopefully cleaning up such practices (e.g. using recycled plastics in interior trim) actually saves money, so would be a win/win for the consumer.

Re: the venti-seats, I'm guessing they're claiming this means the driver will use their AC less. Why cool the whole car when it's only the driver needs cooling? Makes sense to me (I use the heated seats in winter, and keep the blower on the windshield with the fan set to 2, versus having the fan on 4 and blowing air both onto the windshield and down into the footwells). I'd wanna see some hard numbers on actual AC usage before allowing it though.

Super Nintendo Chalmers > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 12:23

CO2 Scam to extract more money out of your pockets. G0vt has a good track record for being Trusted... don't they?

DCCARGEEK > BamaSS
10/10/2013 at 12:27

There are separate credits specific to A/C:

Air Conditioning Improvement Credits - As with the MYs 2012-2016 program, manufacturers will be able to generate CO2-equivalent credits to use in complying with the CO2 standards for (1) improvements in air conditioning (A/C) systems that reduce tailpipe CO2 through eficiency improvements, and (2) for reduced refrigerant leakage—through better components and/or use of alternative refrigerants with lower global warming potential. Currently A/C systems use refrigerants containing hydroluorocarbons (HFC) which are highly potent greenhouse gases, and EPA’s A/C credits will give manufacturers an incentive to accelerate the use of refrigerants with much lower HFC emissions.

Here is the response from EPA regarding ventilated seats:

Active or Passive Ventilation Vehicle active or passive ventilation may have the technical potential to reduce air conditioning load, but they do not meet the general criteria discussed above for default credits. The NREL report on these technologies was developed based on limited data and states that further evaluation is needed.67 The NREL report also notes that floor-level ventilation could allow dust, animals, and/or exhaust to enter the vehicles.68 Thus drivers (or dealers) may be motivated to close them off. Similarly, the driver's response to ventilated seats is unclear at this time

deekster_caddy > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom
10/10/2013 at 12:28

Ahh - so I just found another way to improve our carbon footprint! Reverse the fans!!!

Casey Henry > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
10/10/2013 at 12:33

This x1000. Ventilated/cooled seats should be standard equipment on convertibles.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > deekster_caddy
10/10/2013 at 12:36

Patent that shit, bro. You'll be an interwebs bazillionaire.

deekster_caddy > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom
10/10/2013 at 12:37

Thanks for the laughs over my lunch break!

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > deekster_caddy
10/10/2013 at 12:39

No worries. It's what I'm here for.

ezeolla > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 12:42

"Interesting that Progressive shares (or sells?) their customer’s driving habits to a manufacturer to support a regulatory decision."

Kinja'd!!!

bobrayner > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 13:24

I could never question the judgement of a man in a suit :-) but perhaps we have differently cooled seats.

BigGatorChris > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 13:24

This whole topic drives me into a frothing rage. Couldn't all of this carbon credit bullshit be eliminated by an additional gas tax? Using less gas= lower carbon emission. Why tax the variables, when it's sooo much simpler to tax the product on the other side of the equals sign? And fuck you Progressive. Those fucking tracking devices are going to be a requirement to get insurance in the near future, and it will be legal because it's not a governmental requirement, but having insurance is. Did I mention that carbon credits are bullshit? Fuck those fucking fucks.

BigGatorChris > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 13:25

BigGatorChris > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 13:27

And did Merc just drive a third of a million clicks to prove they're saving gas?

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > philipilihp
10/10/2013 at 13:32

I LOVE heated seats, especially for my back. My current car doesn't have them, and it's made me sad every mile I put on the thing. I used to use heated seats even in summer, it felt so good.

That being said, my only experience with ventilated seats was in 2002/03 when (BMW or Mercedes, can't remember which, friend's dad's car) had it. The cooling wasn't nearly significant enough to even be noticeable. Hopefully things have gotten better in 10 years...although my current car has the same auto-dim mirror that doesn't work that my 2001 car had, so I'm not the hopeful on these types of "extras".

Meatcoma > Cloud81918
10/10/2013 at 13:34

I more than agree that soon it will become standard, which is bad.

Michael H > Z_Stig
10/10/2013 at 13:47

The expelled CH4 goes in to the intake, just like PCV, EGR, and Evap. After a good feed of beans you'll see a 1-2mpg improvement and if you have good muscle control you can use your flatus for a nice little power boost up hills.

Manuél Ferrari > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 13:57

Has anyone else had issues with ventilated seats being uncomfortable? It seems to me that the seat design and padding using is different when this feature is added. In my personal experience it made the seats very uncomfortable after driving for a while. I only weigh about 150 lbs so it wasn't due to my weight.

I leased a 2010 Mercedes E350 Coupe with heated and ventilated seats. The ventilation feature took a long time to cool the seats down. On short trips I got to the destination before I felt any cooling. And on longer trips it helped, but not as much as I expected.

The big bummer was that the seats were really uncomfortable. My back hurt after 45 minutes of driving no matter how I adjusted the seat. The prior gen E350 I had leased had heated seats but did not have the ventilation feature and those seats were very comfortable. If seat ventilation affects how comfortable the seats are I'd much rather skip that option.

midengineer > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 14:11

'Like a good neighbor, State Farm don't care!'

DCCARGEEK > BigGatorChris
10/10/2013 at 14:45

Those were on customer's vehicles who opted into the study with MB.

DCCARGEEK > Manuél Ferrari
10/10/2013 at 14:47

I'm not sure if it changes the actual makeup of the seat but that is a good point. Question is - what if you can't separate the various options? That is one package includes heated and cooled, along with park distance control, etc.

Manuél Ferrari > DCCARGEEK
10/10/2013 at 15:10

I don't know if it changes the makeup of the seat either. I only have experience with one car that had the ventilated seats. Was just curious if anyone else had the same issue. The issue was actually pretty bad for me. I literally hated driving the car more than 30 miles at a time.

If there is any correlation between seat ventilation and ergonomics then I really hope we don't have the feature forced on via packages, as you mentioned could happen.

MtrRider Just Wants Doritos > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom
10/10/2013 at 23:24

Recycling farts, or blowing them back up your ass?

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > MtrRider Just Wants Doritos
10/11/2013 at 08:47

For future use? That's brilliant!!

xder345 > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney
10/15/2013 at 15:07

Ohhhh yeah. Love my cooled and heated seats. Anything I can do go get rid of swamp-crotch as quickly as possible is a good thing. I probably won't consider another new car without it (Ford: are you listening? I can get them on the Explorer, but not the Fusion???)