As we know, the Ford empire...

"El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!" (lightningzone)
10/05/2013 at 19:23 • Filed to: What if ?

...crumbled during the Carpocalypse. It's brands, are doing better than GM's dropped brands. JLR, Volvo and Aston Martin, all went their own ways. Now, Ford is making money again, should Ford try to buy some of them back? Should buy other brands? SAAB? Fisker? Caterham? Pontiac?

DISCUSSION (33)

CalzoneGolem > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/05/2013 at 19:27

I think Ford should keep doing its own thing like it has been. No need to dilute it down.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/05/2013 at 19:27

They should invest in Lincoln first. Make that something worthy of the name, and then look to expand elsewhere.

TheOnelectronic > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/05/2013 at 19:31

Ford has historically not been good at letting its brands do their own thing.

That said, a Ford/Caterham partnership, if done intelligently, could be awesome.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > CalzoneGolem
10/05/2013 at 19:32

Like grille swapping?

Victorious Secret > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/05/2013 at 19:32

Why risk their success?

Lincoln needs help.

Maybe they can buy back some/a lot of Aston Martin for a controlling stake.

SAAB? Overpriced. Fisker? Rather invest in Tesla. Caterham? Why? Pontiac? Just for the badge? Cause their cars tended to be shit with few exceptions.

CalzoneGolem > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/05/2013 at 19:34

I'm not sure what you mean.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
10/05/2013 at 19:36

Lincoln would need like 20 billion to go after Mercedes, Lexus or Jag. Too much, even for Ford's pockets.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > CalzoneGolem
10/05/2013 at 19:41

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/to-clarify-the…

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > Victorious Secret
10/05/2013 at 20:06

I just named a few, you can add others, but not Tesla, Musk would be like, "those mainstream morons are ruining my vision, duhhhhh".

Lets Just Drive > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/05/2013 at 20:18

That has to have been the best possible response to the original comment. I laughed and laughed.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/05/2013 at 20:25

They don't even need to compete with the big boys at this stage. Just produce a properly stylish boulevard cruiser. 5 seats, but convertible. Suicide doors. Lazy V8. Modern but clean styling.

Like a competitor for the Ciel.

They should ring classy back with a proper flagship, and then work from there.

Lets Just Drive > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/05/2013 at 20:30

That's an interesting idea, but there are a few problems I can think of.

Ford's current position in the global marketplace is actually quite strong and like you said, the company is making money. The only reason to buy a brand, however, is if you plan on making profit off it (couldn't resist) unfortunately none of the brands you've mentioned with the exception of Volvo or Aston Martin would really bring much to Ford. Saab, while a great brand and something that I as a car guy would love to see resurrected, has shown itself to be a less than viable brand in the current consumer climate and isn't currently a hotbed of extremely desirable or innovative technology and development. Aston Martin would cost way, way too much; compare the company valuation at the time Ford initially purchased it with their current market valuation.

If the acquisition of a brand isn't based purely on an intention to exploit the consumer associations of said brand, it's typically to steal R&D or patents and there aren't a lot of companies that can compete with Ford right now in terms of their product development outside of the big brands which, obviously, aren't for sale. Sure, if Ford could swoop in and complete a full buyout of Mercedes and Aston Martin, I'd be happy as a pig in shit if only because I'd be able to look down my nose at those snooty European customers (joke! I joke!) but it'd fiscal suicide.

For a company like Ford or GM to buy up another company, there has to be something to gain out of it and there just aren't a lot of dead or dying brands around which would add to their portfolio without destroying their market share. Imagine if Ford bought Saab and stuck a re-badged American car on sale as a Saab... oh.... wait. Yeah, well.

You get where I'm going.

Just the same, I'd love it if the big brands just went around scooping up the dead or dying brands if only to keep them in the back pocket for a rainy day.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > Lets Just Drive
10/06/2013 at 16:07

Jaguar! Jaguar is good, Ford could pair it with Lincoln, so Lincolns won't be just fancy Fords. That aluminium platform paired with Ford's Ecoboost engines, could make Lincoln kick Cadillac's ass, in no time.

Kinja'd!!!

Maybe Ford can buy back Jaguar, as the Tata Nano is shaping up to be a failure, sure it would cost a few billion, but that's a few billion Ford won't have to invest in Lincoln, anymore, as Lincolns can become Jags on a discount.

Nibby > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/06/2013 at 16:19

Tata makes thousands of cars and trucks for the Indian market. They make everything from pickups to compact cars to full size buses.

They also dabble in the food industry, such as salt and tea... energy, steel, chemicals, a shitload of things. They're a giant company.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > Nibby
10/06/2013 at 16:26

Sure, but not even a giant company can't say no to big lumps of cash.

Or the American lobby.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/06/2013 at 16:26

I sincerely hope they don't. Ford did Jaguar a lot of good back in the early 90s improving quality. After that they nearly plowed it into the ground with staid derivative styling and whatever the X-Type was*. Jaguar have a great thing going at the moment, and I don't think Ford could continue it.

*I rather like the X-Type, but it was anything but a commercial success.

Nibby > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/06/2013 at 16:39

Tata isn't giving up Jaguar anytime soon.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
10/06/2013 at 16:40

Of course it can, see the Ford dealer network(US is still the market to aim for, as most people in India can't buy new Jags) and all the Ford facilities, Jaguar can use. And there are all those possibilities that will open for Jaguar, with Lincoln as it's partner. One can fill the other's gaps. I think that Ford is in the position to do it right, this time,

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/06/2013 at 16:42

"most people" in India still leaves around 50 000 000 who can probably afford a Jag.

Mikeado > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/06/2013 at 16:44

No. Ford screwed Jaguar over before. They're better without them now.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/06/2013 at 16:46

They could do, new leaves and all that.

I think it might just be my prejudice against Ford and GM's ability to sort out their subsidieries. What with Ford screwing up Jaguar and Volvo (and now denying Lincoln the funds to grow) and GM killing Saab and Pontiac (and Buick being on life support from China, and Opel being on life support in general), I haven't got the greatest confidence in their ability.

I'd say it was just due to the carpocalypse screwing with their finances, but Ford is in a good position now and they still seem intent on denying Lincoln the capital they need to expand.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > Mikeado
10/06/2013 at 16:57

Ford did maximum possible for Jaguar with the resources it had, do you remember that they even mortgaged their own logo, for a a little more cash? Some of that cash went to Jaguar. Until the new F-Type, they still produced cars designed and mostly developed in the Ford era. They also took Jaguar back to F1, it is true that success was limited, but they had the best intentions.

Bandit > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/06/2013 at 17:11

No. I would absolutely hate it if Ford bought Pontiac. If anything they should kill Lincoln.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
10/06/2013 at 17:16

It's not about not funding Lincoln, it is that Alan Mulally probably secretly thinks that Lincoln is not worth all the money it needs, so they are trying a safe recovery, rather than the spectacular one, Ford got. In a way, getting Jag together with Lincoln, and merging the technologies of both brands, into something better(like they did when they merged Ford America with Ford of Europe tech.), would make possible a fast recovery for Lincoln. And would make development cheaper for Jag.

Manuél Ferrari > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
10/06/2013 at 17:48

I agree that would be a cool car for them to make. But would it sell? I dunno if it will attract the younger professionals with the cash to buy it. The car may only sell to gearheads and retirees.

Ford neglected Lincoln for so long that it may be too late to resurrect it. The luxury car market is so crowded now. The extra competition has put pressure on pricing and car companies need to sell a lot of luxury cars to get economies of scale.

GM started investing in the Caddy brand right before it was too late to save it. Ford let the Lincoln brand slip out of the mainstream public's mind. It was a really bad move as it's now difficult for Ford to move upstream while the luxury car makers are moving downstream with cheaper and cheaper models.

Manuél Ferrari > Victorious Secret
10/06/2013 at 17:54

Agree that Aston Martin is the only possibility right now. It wouldn't be that expensive for Ford to purchase. And Aston already secured a partnership with AMG to buy powerplants from them. So Ford wouldn't have to invest a ton of R&D dollars into building engines that wouldn't be used in its mainstream products.

It would be harder for Ford's board to approve buying back Jag. The purchase price would be pretty high since Jag's owners have invested a lot of funds into developing the F-Type and the new SUV. They're expecting future profits to increase and would factor those future profits into the sale price to Ford.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
10/06/2013 at 18:00

Very good point. The only subsidiary marque to pull off a stellar recovery after the carpocalypse under the auspices of Ford or GM is Cadillac, and they've got a lot more brand cache than Lincoln, especially outside of the US.

Still, from Jaguar's point of view I don't like it. Ford's treatment of Lincoln (and Jaguar before the split) doesn't bode well if Jaguar get into trouble again.

Saying that, I'd rather they get back together with Ford than GM. At least for parted amicably with Jaguar, allowing them to keep a decent amount of their tech and weaning them off to their new owners. GM pretty much cut Saab loose with nothing to float on.

You can probably guess that my sympathies lie with the smaller marques rather than GM or Ford, which might explain my stance.

Actually, I'm pretty certain Ford still own at least a small stake in Jaguar. Not sure though.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Manuél Ferrari
10/06/2013 at 18:05

It might not, but if it's properly stylish it would get people to pay attention to Lincoln again, and that's what Lincoln needs.

If they make it a stylistic departure from the rest of the range, and then follow it up with bread and butter models that use the same design language they could end up increasing the profits of their normal cars. Halo effect.

At the moment, Lincoln has very little to draw people to their cars.

Manuél Ferrari > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
10/06/2013 at 18:21

It would definitely need to be bonkers like the Ciel is. Something so big and luxurious that people have to pay attention to it.

As sad as this is to say if Ford wants to have a hot selling Lincoln then they need to produce a Lincoln SUV with a truly stunning interior. It can't just be a slightly more luxurious Ford SUV. They need to hire away employees from Bentley or Rolls Royce and create a luxury SUV that not only matches but beats the Mercedes GL interior.

I definitely prefer sedans to SUVs, but large SUVs are still very popular with families that make good money and have kids. Parents like having the third row of seats. The Mercedes GL sells because it has an S-Class quality interior and a third row of seats. Lincoln could create their new interior design language with a Ciel competitor and then use that language in a mass market large SUV.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Manuél Ferrari
10/06/2013 at 18:27

That's not a bad plan actually. By all means keep the midsize saloon, but an SUV is where the real moulah is.

Manuél Ferrari > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
10/06/2013 at 18:35

And the best part is that they don't have to use hyper expensive materials to do it. The average buyer can't tell the difference between different kinds of leather. As long as a lot of leather is used and everything looks and feels high quality people will buy it.

They could also go the Benz route and integrate deeply with iOS. Apple products have the most market share in the upper income brackets.

The interior of the vehicle is the most important part of the luxury SUV. They all look like boxes from the outside...

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
10/06/2013 at 18:39

I understand your reticence, towards brand collection automakers, after the BL fiasco, but after the Carpocalypse, Ford and GM seem to be new companies. Times are harsh in the auto world, EU car market still stinks, other places are uncertain, in situations like this, money alone, is not enough, you need economics of scale. It is obvious that Jaguar and Tata can't do that, they don't do the same type of cars, with Ford and Lincoln, we got all new ingredients. Keep in mind that Jaguar has more than Germans to face, Lexus, Infiniti and Cadillac, are coming after more market share with their engine roaring.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
10/06/2013 at 18:48

I know Ford still owns a very small part of Mazda, I doubt it's the same case with Jag.