FWD Friday

"GhostZ" (GhostZ) 10/04/2013 at 00:39 • Filed to: FWD Friday, EK9

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This is the best damn FWD car ever built. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

PRBot II > GhostZ 10/04/2013 at 00:42

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/ducksandruns

Ghost Dog - For the kittens > PRBot II 10/04/2013 at 00:46

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Staples in the conversation of great FWD cars. Yes, yes, yes!

GhostZ > PRBot II 10/04/2013 at 00:46

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The Elan was heavier with less power and a less sophisticated chassis, and probably cost more than the EK9. But it was a convertible, so there's that.

I never liked the Integra though. It was more comfortable but seemed to me to be too compromising in terms of weight over the more hard-core Civic. They seemed to be more highway cruiser oriented than handling-oriented.

Luke's Dad Sold His 2000TL To Get a Sienna > GhostZ 10/04/2013 at 00:47

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DasWauto > GhostZ 10/04/2013 at 00:47

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It's great no doubt, but greatest? It's got some tough contenders.

From Honda alone there are the Ep3 Civic and Integra. There's the OG Mini, VW GTI, Lotus Elan, Peugeot 205 GTi and other hot hatches North America never got.

GhostZ > DasWauto 10/04/2013 at 00:50

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The EK9 had a dedicated seam-welded monocoque chassis and a better power/weight ratio than pretty much everything on that list. It was the only FWD car that was fast because it was FWD and utilized the advantages of the platform to its fullest. There was an entire period of time in the 90s when, partly because of this car's dominance in racing, FR was considered overweight and poorly packaged and that MR and FF were the only ways to go. To some extent, that's true.

The rest of those were FWD economy cars that were made to be fast and good. The EK9, from the ground up, shared little with the actual civic and was basically a race car for the road. The same cannot be said of later Type Rs though.

PRBot II > GhostZ 10/04/2013 at 00:51

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I really have no footing in this conversation anyway, since I've never driven any of these cars.

Well, I've driven a stock Civic, and a modified Integra (not the R), but again I have no real say in this.

Deal Killer - Powered by Focus > GhostZ 10/04/2013 at 00:51

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I can't fit in it. 1/10. Would not, can not, hoon.

GhostZ > Luke's Dad Sold His 2000TL To Get a Sienna 10/04/2013 at 00:52

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The DS wasn't good because it was FWD though, it was just a good car that happened to be FWD. The EK9 actually utilized all of the advantages of the platform against all intuition against it. That generation of Civic, in my opinion, single-handily killed the RWD sedan and kept FWD sports cars alive for the next 10-15 years.

GhostZ > PRBot II 10/04/2013 at 00:53

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Me neither, but I haven't found a FWD car that on a technological and performance factor accomplishes near what the EK9 does with what it was given. The base civic shares almost nothing (not even the chassis or frame) with the EK9 though. I think they may share some interior (non-mechanical) components though.

DasWauto > GhostZ 10/04/2013 at 01:01

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I'm sorry that your definition of greatness is solely based on how dedicated these cars are to being fast.

The OG Mini probably popularized FWD, the GTIs started the hot hatch segment (your EK9 wouldn't exist without them), the Elan is pretty widely regarded as the best handling fwd car ever made, the Integra comes close to that but was more practical, and the EP3 doesn't differ that much in the way it was prepared from the EK9.

GhostZ > DasWauto 10/04/2013 at 01:09

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My definition is how well it achieved its goals as a machine, considering what it was given, and what innovations it created to achieve that. The Mini sold extremely well, but it was more of an exercise in economics and packaging than technological innovation or approaching limits, same with the GTI. The EK9 was one of those special cars that had a ton of innovation without the compromise that plagues FWD cars.

Or, in other words, the way I think about it is: "What are all of the reasons you shouldn't buy FWD? How many of those does this car address without sacrificing the reasons you should buy FWD?" That's just my perspective though.

I am far from a civic-loving fanboy. I think most civics are listless and boring, but there is a certain historical innovation and technological wonder (and racing pedigree) behind the EK9 (and not shared with any other Honda product, really) that I can't ignore, and I haven't found in any other FWD car.

DasWauto > GhostZ 10/04/2013 at 01:49

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You say your definition is "how well it achieved its goals as a machine, considering what it was given, and what innovations it created to achieve that". I can agree with that.

Unfortunately you then limit that to overcoming the inherent problems of fwd and come back too much to ultimate performance by stating this: "What are all of the reasons you shouldn't buy FWD? How many of those does this car address without sacrificing the reasons you should buy FWD?"

If you come back to your original statement you have to realize that the cars I listed don't have the same goals as the EK9 and that therefor their greatness is based on different things. For the sake of argument, I'll drop Integra and 205 from the list of greatest because I'd just be repeating myself.

As stated before, the Mini basically popularized FWD. It was meant to bring affordable transportation to the masses and FWD was the way to achieve that. Innovation? Look at the rear suspension design, it takes up minimal vertical space to maximize space in the passenger compartment. Probably not the most comfortable these days but very clever from the late 50's/early 60's.

The VW GTI innovated by creating the Hot Hatch segment. Not much I more I need to say there. It's not meant to be the ultimate fwd performance car. It was meant as cheap speed and fun. How well did it achieve that goal? Brilliantly because it succeeded and the segment still exists and is still going strong.

The Lotus Elan was meant to be an affordable British roadster with brilliant handling. FWD was only meant as a way of achieving that, not something to overcome. The car may not have been a roaring sales success but there are other [economic] factors at play there but again, it achieved its goal greatly. Hard to argue the praise it's gotten for being the best handling FWD car of all time.

The EP3's formula varies very little from the EK9. You can use the same arguments for it as its EK ancestor. I'd argue that preference and choice of greatest between them is entirely personal. I'd have either one.

Beyond what I've mentioned here the choice for greatest is personal, you wouldn't be arguing facts, just individual preference. With these different measures and reasons for greatness, there is no definitive answer and that's all I'm trying to get you to agree to.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > GhostZ 10/04/2013 at 09:30

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Lord Vader and his Focus RS 500 would like a word with you.

MonkeePuzzle > GhostZ 10/04/2013 at 09:50

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so SO close. Need to have the revised 99/00 version and you'd be right :D

MonkeePuzzle > Deal Killer - Powered by Focus 10/04/2013 at 09:52

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you can't fit into a ek/ej civic? how tall/fat are you!?

Deal Killer - Powered by Focus > MonkeePuzzle 10/04/2013 at 09:57

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6'4" and 215lbs. The steering wheel sits in my lap, as there is just not enough leg room. It's not that I don't like small cars, as I've owned a '90 Corolla, '03 Protege & my current '06 Focus ZX-3. The biggest car I've ever owned was a '96 Mazda 626.

Burt > GhostZ 10/06/2013 at 19:20

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Are we talking specific cars here, or a model? If we're talking individual cars, I'd rock this any day:

Jfelty19 > PRBot II 10/07/2013 at 00:48

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the elan was SHITE! I rode in one 5 or 6 years ago and couldn't help repeating in my brain "This is a Lotus ? Where's the power?!!e