"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
10/02/2013 at 13:47 • Filed to: None
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"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
10/02/2013 at 13:47 • Filed to: None | 3
| 17 |
There are lots of ways to define a car and there are many ways a car can cross over from one category to another, or be in two categories at once. That being said, I think its a good time to review the difference between a wagon and a shooting brake. Jason Torchinsky has a good (but not definitive) !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! on what a wagon is, that I personally subscribe to with one exception: shooting brakes.
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Now I think that shooting brakes are in the wagon family, in the same way that ski boats are in the "ship" family; i.e. they displace water and are transportation. But in the same way that a boat fits on a ship but not a ship on a boat so too a shooting brake is wagon but a wagon is not a shooting brake...or maybe neither. In other words, a shooting brake is a wagon in the same way that an SUV is; Technically, but not in practice.
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (Designer) described the modern shooting brake as -
"it is not your basic two-door hatchback, a body style with different proportions: the hatchback tends to be squatty, while a shooting brake is sleek and has "a very interesting profile." It makes use of the road space it covers a little better than a normal coupé, and also helps the rear person with headroom."
So that means, at least in modern times, hatches are out as far as being shooting brakes and frankly I think the Torchinsky guide covers that pretty well anyway, but are they wagons? That's another story.
Historically, they were, but not before the term was used to mean custom coachwork wagons and specially built hunting vehicles (and before that a cart) but Entomology is boring, and you can read more about it !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .
What matters is how its used currently. For me the difference between a wagon and a shooting brake is that a shooting brake should be overtly sporty, not just a wagon with lots of sporting parts, but but a body style that conveys minimalist sporting with a nod to increased practicality.
I.e.
Wagon
Shooting brake
The Audi shooting brake concept is different from a hatch in one notable regard: its based on a TT, not a golf at least in style (though its hard to tell the difference when talking about engineering). The scirocco is another great example
Yes its "technically" a golf...but it SO isn't. and finally the FF
The quintessential shooting brake. Note that while this is, according to the torch guide, a hatch and not a wagon (no rear window, cargo space less than 50% covered) but it just isn't a hatch, its more.
The tricky comes from manufactures, intent on breaking every convention in the mad pursuit to fill every conceivable niche, are using naming conventions in unconventional ways. This started with the 4 door coupe from Mercedes in the CLS
And more recently in the confusing Audi A7 and BMW M6 Gran Coupe
4 door "coupe's" based on 4 door sedans. So following the "logic" like an uphill river leads us to the 4 door coupe cargo varient...i.e. the CLA shooting brake
All this discussion to end up back at a wagon?! yes. But if you follow the idea that the CLA is a 4 door coupe, than it stands to reason that a sporty, cargo carrying varient would indeed be a shooting brake. It doesn't make sense, but it does in the sense that Mercedes wants you to differentiate between a wagon and a sporty not wagon, not hatch. By their inclusion of this in their nomenclature as a shooting brakes is for them to admit that if the CLS/CLA are indeed to be considered coupes...and were they actually coupes with only 2 doors...then this would be cargo carrying variant.
Following that, if possible, we can conclude that...at least in modern terms, a shooting brake is the spirit of a 2 door coupe, with extra cargo space. Feel free to validate me, or disagree with me below.
Party-vi
> HammerheadFistpunch
10/02/2013 at 13:54 |
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I stopped by just to say the 6 Series Gran Coupe is stunning in person.
dieselwagon
> HammerheadFistpunch
10/02/2013 at 13:57 |
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I appreciate the write up...
But, It's all rather stupid and pointless. Everything i've seen relating to this argument comes down to: It's a wagon, without practicality advantages to improve the styling and design.
The Scirocco is an example of this logic taken to the hatchback market.
Calling it something else doesn't make it any less of an unpractical wagon or hatchback.
RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
> HammerheadFistpunch
10/02/2013 at 13:58 |
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Regrettably, Scrubs has ruined any chance of me taking the phrase "Who am I?" seriously ever again.
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HammerheadFistpunch
> dieselwagon
10/02/2013 at 13:59 |
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Im not arguing as to whether or not they make sense or are practical, just as to how they are defined. If we have different names for them: hatch, shooting brake, wagon...they their should exist some rule to differentiate them, right? We have many different names for snow (powder, crust, frost, crud, etc) and they are similar but different, and so should these be: similar, but different. So how are they different is the question, not whether or not they should exist.
Nibbles
> HammerheadFistpunch
10/02/2013 at 14:00 |
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Four full doors coupé
AbigGRNboot
> HammerheadFistpunch
10/02/2013 at 14:00 |
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Wagachtooting Brake.?
No, sounds too German.
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HammerheadFistpunch
> Nibbles
10/02/2013 at 14:01 |
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I agree...but it is the way the winds are blowing.
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Nibbles
> HammerheadFistpunch
10/02/2013 at 14:02 |
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The winds are blowing in a dumb direction.
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HammerheadFistpunch
> Nibbles
10/02/2013 at 14:04 |
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yes they are. But don't forget that "gay" used to be something that everyone wanted to be at one point. The world changes.
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dieselwagon
> HammerheadFistpunch
10/02/2013 at 14:06 |
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Well up until recently, and still in some dictionaries, it's defined as an archaic term for a station wagon.
Wikipedia makes several allusions to them having two doors, the CL* shooting brakes all have 4 doors.
I may well be wrong, but to me this feels like: Well estates and wagons must be different, since they are different words.
What do we think about the XF "Sportbrake"?
Following definitions, the Ford Escort is my favorite shooting brake, even if it was marketed as a wagon.
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HammerheadFistpunch
> dieselwagon
10/02/2013 at 14:08 |
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its a hodgepodge for sure, but I think we can come up with a set of rules that covers most (if not all) use cases.
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dieselwagon
> HammerheadFistpunch
10/02/2013 at 14:13 |
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I don't think we can, unless we're going to hold this definition in time as only applicable for today. It's a constantly evolving state of affairs, it's just a marketing term for Mercedes and some nostalgia for old concepts and 3 door wagons. We can come up with a set of rules right now, but when Mercedes changes its mind about what it means, for the next marketing push, it will be all over.
Otherwise, we have to go revisionist and reclassify half of the European wagons from the 60's, 70's and 80's as shooting brakes, even though it was not mentioned or ever considered. They were just 3 door estate cars.
PS9
> Nibbles
10/02/2013 at 14:14 |
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I think the people who make coupes, wagons and what not should have a controlling say in the nomenclature.
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Nibbles
> PS9
10/02/2013 at 14:18 |
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duurtlang
> HammerheadFistpunch
10/02/2013 at 14:27 |
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It's all marketing. The Scirocco is a hatchback and arguably a coupe. Not a shooting brake. The same goes for the Ferrari FF. Four door Merc CLS, BMW 6 and Audi A7 are sedans. CLA is a sedan, the 'shooting brake' is a wagon.
A wagon has 'considerable' rear overhang, just like a sedan. See the difference between a 5-door Golf hatch and a Golf/Jetta wagon. The difference tends to be very clear, although a very rare exception is the previous generation (04-13) Audi A3 Sportback, which is somewhat halfway but which I would consider a hatchback.
A shooting brake is the same as a wagon, but with two doors in stead of 2.
A coupe only has two doors (excluding the possible hatch). Either a hatch with a long sloping rear end or it's like a 2 door sedan. To me even a two door 'sedan' coupe needs a sloping rear end, but I know many disagree. See: 1980s Jetta 2-door.
Gamecat235
> HammerheadFistpunch
10/02/2013 at 14:35 |
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The winds can kiss my ass. Use the phrasing that makes sense from a language point of view, not because some marketing exec didn't know what a coupe actually was.
Atomic Buffalo
> HammerheadFistpunch
10/02/2013 at 14:53 |
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A shooting brake is a two-door wagon-roofed hatchback based on a two-door coupe/convertible.
If there is no two-door coupe or convertible sharing the same front styling, then it's just a hatchback. Yes, this term is dependent on the existence of a parent car with shared bodywork.
If it doesn't meet the cargo-oriented criteria of a wagon it's just a hatchback. The cargo-oriented criteria of a wagon are (1) roof extends over at least half of the nominal cargo area, (2) if the rear seats fold to increase cargo floor area, they less than double it.
If it's not materially more practical for cargo than the car on which it's based, either in space or access, then it's just a(nother) hatchback.
Thus the Scirocco is a sporty hatchback, the Golf is a hatchback, the Corvette is a hatchback, and the ugly thing at the top of this page is a hatchback.
People want to label everything remotely un-Golf-like a shooting brake because they want it to be special. The name "shooting brake" is only special if you don't label everything remotely un-Golf-like with it.
Same goes for coupe. It's two doors, dammit. Words are only meaningful when you don't stuff ten pounds of manure in their five-pound containers.