by "Jonee" (Jonee)
Published 12/31/2017 at 12:39
by "Jonee" (Jonee)
Published 12/31/2017 at 12:39
No Tags
STARS: 9
It’s true and will be forever as far as I’m concerned. I spent Christmas with the family and thus spent a lot of time driving my parents’ cars. They have good cars, an Audi A5 Sportback and a BMW 4-series Coupe (440i? BMW numbers are an enigma). Both almost new. And both had automatics that I hated. My mother’s BMW was a little better, but it has the X-Drive and that sucks a lot of the fun out of that car. Everyone says, “oh, new automatics can shift so much faster than a human.” Which may be true, but they can’t make decisions faster than I can. You still step on the gas and the car has to take a moment to decide what the hell it wants to do. Fuck that and fuck having only two pedals. I arrived home, got in my 6 speed stick C30, and suddenly I was driving again. Hell, my 36 horsepower Citroën gives me more driving enjoyment than those non-stick German cars.
"DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish!" (daft-ryosuke)
12/31/2017 at 12:51, STARS: 9
Sounds like a personal problem.
Show us on the doll where the automatic hurt you.
"Jonee" (Jonee)
12/31/2017 at 12:56, STARS: 2
If one had hurt me, then at least I would have felt something.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
12/31/2017 at 12:56, STARS: 0
As far as I know there’s no such thing as a BMW 450i.
In my personal experience with BMWs with both the 7-speed DCT (I had a 135is with this transmission for 3 years) and 8-speed ZF auto (several cars I test drove), both transmissions shift very quickly. That 135is is the only performance car I’ve owned without a manual transmission. My current 335xi is a manual.
Sure there are times in regular old D mode they might not telepathically understand what gear you want to be in, but if you put them in sport mode they get more aggressive with their shift maps, and you can always use the paddles if you want to pick a specific gear.
In effect the only difference in driver involvement is whether you want to use paddles, or a clutch pedal and manual shifter. I’ve got almost 20 years of experience driving manual transmissions, I’ve spent countless hours perfecting things like heel-toe downshifts, and I can’t shift as fast as these transmissions.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
12/31/2017 at 12:57, STARS: 0
The lag with new cars has to do wih the electronic theottle mapping, not the transmission. Quite a few newer manuals have the same issue with throttle lag. Although with a manual you can blip the throttle to compensate a bit for it.
"marshknute" (marshknute)
12/31/2017 at 12:57, STARS: 5
So much this. As good as Porsche’s PDK is, I still find it annoying when it shifts differently to how I would want to. It doesn’t know that I want to hold the revs for 3 seconds before I go for an overtake. I don’t care that it can downshift in 60 milliseconds; I just want it to hold the revs anyway.
Just give me a proper manual and let me make my own (slow and inferior) decisions.
"Recovering Gaijin" (toxrensem)
12/31/2017 at 12:58, STARS: 3
Where on the doll do you point to to indicate ‘the feels’?
"Jonee" (Jonee)
12/31/2017 at 13:04, STARS: 0
That should say 440. Sport mode was better, but I wouldn’t say appreciably enough for me to get too excited. And the paddles, in my opinion, are a gimmick that doesn’t really add any driving enjoyment. The sequential nature of them I always find annoying. The quick shifting isn’t really the issue. It’s doing exactly what I want it to do that bugs me.
"Jonee" (Jonee)
12/31/2017 at 13:05, STARS: 1
Amen, brother.
"Steve in Manhattan" (blogenfreude01)
12/31/2017 at 13:05, STARS: 0
Well now we’re going to need a photo of that Citroën ....
"Svend" (svend)
12/31/2017 at 13:05, STARS: 2
I gave up my physical hand brake, but I refuse to give up my gear shift.
"DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish!" (daft-ryosuke)
12/31/2017 at 13:07, STARS: 1
The genitalia I guess?
"Jonee" (Jonee)
12/31/2017 at 13:07, STARS: 2
"That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms" (thatbastardkurtis5)
12/31/2017 at 13:08, STARS: 3
I used to be militantly anti-automatic. Then I got longer and longer commutes to work, driving through Boston, and realized automatic transmissions are AWESOME. Not all the time, but I don’t think I’ll ever commute in a stick again...toy cars only for me.
"Jonee" (Jonee)
12/31/2017 at 13:10, STARS: 2
I commute in L.A. traffic and I still would never give up having a clutch pedal. I get so bored without it. Although, having lived in Boston myself, I know that town is its own thing when it comes to commuting.
"fhrblig" (fhrblig)
12/31/2017 at 13:12, STARS: 0
The six-speed Auto in my Optima is pretty good actually. It’s the first one in a long time where the shifts are time right and it makes quick decisions.
"marshknute" (marshknute)
12/31/2017 at 13:15, STARS: 3
The problem isn’t the shift speed. It’s the computer trying to predict when you want to shift. It doesn’t know I want to shift at 3K RPM; it just kinda guesses based on how hard I’m pressing the throttle, and it is ALWAYS wrong. You always have to do some stupid little pedal dance to “remind” the computer that you want to shift now.
Besides, most “fast” automatics take FOREVER to shift after you pull the paddle. To get instant paddle response, you need the very best dual clutch, but that defeats the whole purpose of having an automaic.
In my experience, only Porsche’s PDK is clever enough to juggle sporty and casual driving, burn only in sport mode. Compare that to Ferrari’s atrocious sport mode which keeps the revs high no matter what, even if you’ve obviously caught up to slow traffic and want it to settle the fuck down until you get some open road.
I don’t care that a modern automatic can downshift in 60 milliseconds. I’d rather just ditch the hopeless computer and choose the gears myself exactly when I want to.
On a side note, I’m also wondering what a 450i is! I’d love a V8 4-Series coupe!
"Svart Smart, traded in his Smart" (svartsmart)
12/31/2017 at 13:19, STARS: 1
I used to think I would never again own another car with a torque converter, that I would get either a manual transmission or a dual-clutch automatic. But earlier this month I rented a Hyundai Elantra with the 2.0L four and six-speed automatic. That’s one powertrain combination I would gladly live with.
"fintail" (fintail)
12/31/2017 at 13:22, STARS: 0
Spend a week driving in Seattle - love for the manual will diminish, and you’ll be changing your health and life insurance coverage if you’re on a bike.
If I lived in wide open flat land, a manual might have appeal, but in this region, I am over it. Not to mention, my cars probably won’t gain appreciable speed with a manual (well, I like to control some shifts in the fintail, but I don’t miss a clutch), and there’s no need for the idea of control in this traffic on these roads. To each his own.
"Jonee" (Jonee)
12/31/2017 at 13:33, STARS: 6
I live in Los Angeles. I spent a lot of time in traffic surrounded by terrible drivers. I still need a clutch pedal.
"fintail" (fintail)
12/31/2017 at 13:36, STARS: 1
The hills are a pain too, and I’ll match the idiocy of western WA drivers to LA any day - locals here would be eaten alive there ;)
I haven’t driven a manual car in several years, and don’t miss it.
"TheD0k_2many toys 2little time" (thed0ck)
12/31/2017 at 13:44, STARS: 1
Yea auto sucks. My only auto vehicle is my Powerstroke and i look to replace it with a manual one all the time
"Jonee" (Jonee)
12/31/2017 at 13:56, STARS: 0
I’ve never driven up there, so I can’t really compare, but the shit I see on a daily basis is mind boggling. I bet if you got in a car with a stick again, you’d very quickly remember why it’s the best. ;-)
"winterlegacy, here 'till the end" (winterlegacy)
12/31/2017 at 14:02, STARS: 1
Having been through central Boston multiple times at rush hour, it’s like a passive-aggressive merging match at every single intersection because people don’t know that if they just wait for a few more seconds they can queue smoothly.
That and the asshats who go flying by in their brand spanking new [INSERT LUXURY CAR HERE] just to try and get in front of you for the next turn.
"JasonStern911" (JasonStern911)
12/31/2017 at 14:13, STARS: 1
Truth - although with the exception that automatics are better in stop-and-go freeway traffic.
You’d think tiptronics would be good by now, but auto makers still find ways to mess that up. Granted, I haven’t driven anything new. But with the RX-8, they have paddles on the wheel - which is great. Except both paddles downshift instead of just the right one. Upshifting requires pushing a button that requires taking your hand off of the wheel. In my G35X, there are no wheel-based shift controls. And for whatever reason, you pull the gear lever down to upshift and up to downshift, which I always get backwards, pissing the car off. /sigh
"That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms" (thatbastardkurtis5)
12/31/2017 at 14:30, STARS: 2
I can appreciate that. For me, I was finding that all the sitting in traffic was making me not want to drive in my down time...having a separate commuter and toy car, the toy being the stick, is the way I’ve found that I get the most overall joy from driving.
"Steve in Manhattan" (blogenfreude01)
12/31/2017 at 15:21, STARS: 1
Hadn’t driven a manual in 11 or so years, then my buddy lent me one of his company’s cars when I went down to MD - a Civic Hybrid manual . It is, in fact, like riding a bike. It all came back, including hill starts, in maybe 5 minutes.
"Steve in Manhattan" (blogenfreude01)
12/31/2017 at 15:48, STARS: 1
Now I remember - you wrote a great post on how you wound up with that wonderful little car.
"Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo" (thetomselleck)
12/31/2017 at 16:05, STARS: 1
I just drive my pickup when I get the itch to row my own gears.
"fintail" (fintail)
12/31/2017 at 16:25, STARS: 1
It wouldn’t be a benefit for the cars I actually have - a 55 year old MB with a small displacement I6, and a modern diesel MB that weighs 4100 lbs. No fun to be had there.
Now if I lived in the flatlands and had something sporty, maybe.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
12/31/2017 at 16:44, STARS: 1
So let’s see here.
You don’t like the way the automatic modes don’t read your mind, and instead want to be able to tell the transmission what to do.
But the way the transmission provides to tell it what to do is a gimmick that doesn’t add any driving enjoyment.
The sequential nature of the paddles is a non-issue. Banging out a 6-to-2 downshift with 4 paddle clicks is just as fast or faster than I can heel-toe the same.
You’re just being crotchety.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
12/31/2017 at 16:45, STARS: 0
In my experience with both the BMW 7DCT and ZF8, their automatic modes were pretty damn good at being in the right gear at the right time and there was essentially no delay with the paddles.
Believe me, I’m capable of calling out a crappy-for-a-performance-car automatic transmission when I see one. Neither of those transmissions is crappy.
"Skirmisher808" (skirmisher808)
12/31/2017 at 16:54, STARS: 0
I learned to drive with a three on the tree and still yearn for that experience occasionally. But I am sold on the modern “semi-automatic” trannys that all you to go “full auto” in traffic but still use either the paddle or stick shifter to choose when and how long to hold a gear without the bother/fun of a clutch. I am not likely to return to an old full manual/bolt action any time soon.
"Jonee" (Jonee)
12/31/2017 at 16:55, STARS: 1
No, I just prefer one over the other for the reasons you summarized.
"Jonee" (Jonee)
12/31/2017 at 16:59, STARS: 1
Knowing those cars, I will give you that. There are certainly cars out there where a stick shift does not belong.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
12/31/2017 at 17:08, STARS: 0
Your reasons for why you don’t like these automatic transmissions contradict each other.
You don’t like the auto mode because it doesn’t pick the same gear as you would pick, but you won’t use the manual mode which would allow you to pick the gear you want because you have to click the paddle multiple times to shift multiple gears.
That’s a stupid reason not to like it, but whatever, people like or dislike things for stupid reasons all the time.
But you’re not saying “I don’t like these transmissions,” you’re saying they suck. If you want to claim something sucks, and not only that you don’t personally like it, you need a less stupid reason it sucks.
"fintail" (fintail)
12/31/2017 at 17:11, STARS: 0
I shift the fintail manually all the time, but I’ve only used the paddle shifters in the Bluetec once - there’s no point.
Funny thing, in Europe you could spec a manual in an S-class up into the earlier run of the W140 in the 90s.
"Jonee" (Jonee)
12/31/2017 at 17:44, STARS: 1
They are not contradictory at all. I don’t like automatics, and I don’t like flappy paddles, either. Those are not mutually exclusive opinions. And just because someone dislikes something you do like, that doesn’t make it stupid. I think their lack of intuitiveness plus the lack of physical engagement in a pair of plastic paddles means they suck. There’s nothing dumb in that.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
12/31/2017 at 18:45, STARS: 0
There’s a difference between not liking something and declaring that it is objectively bad.
Your stated reasons for why you dislike automatics, however you repeat them in a slightly different way, are dumb reasons. That’s fine! I like and dislike things for dumb reasons all the time. You don’t even need a reason to dislike or like something. It’s a personal feeling. You can just say “I like a clutch and stick better!” and there’s no further reasoning needed. It’s a preference and you are entitled to it.
But you’re not just saying you don’t like these transmissions. You’re saying that a good automatic transmission is bad, because it’s an automatic transmission.
That doesn’t hold up.
"Jonee" (Jonee)
12/31/2017 at 18:50, STARS: 0
I don’t see how they’re dumb reasons. They’re the same reasons many people don’t like automatics. I’m not making any novel arguments here.
And that holds up perfectly fine in my book. A bad manual is better than a good auto to me.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
12/31/2017 at 22:05, STARS: 0
You’re focusing on the wrong part here.
Saying you don’t like something is different from saying something is objectively bad.
You can dislike something for all kinds of reasons. That’s fine. Disliking something doesn’t make it bad. You just don’t like it.
But you’re saying that the ZF8 as tuned by BMW, which judged on its merits as an automatic transmission is a good automatic transmission, is bad because it’s an automatic transmission.
It’s a good automatic transmission. You just don’t like any automatic transmissions.
"Jobjoris" (Jobjoris)
01/02/2018 at 04:28, STARS: 1
SAVE THE MANUÈL!!!!!
Hahaha... I so agree! Up until the moment I get barely awake in the car for my commute to work. I’ll take an automatic for that. Preferably a 3-speed.
"Jonee" (Jonee)
01/02/2018 at 21:47, STARS: 1
I’ll make an exception for Pike cars, and cars made in The Netherlands.
"Jobjoris" (Jobjoris)
01/03/2018 at 03:29, STARS: 1
Good to hear. RHD cars in general actually. If on LHD roads.
"Jonee" (Jonee)
01/03/2018 at 22:22, STARS: 1
You need to work on your ambidextrous shifting if you want to be cool. I mean, come on. If you got to drive an Autozam, you’d want it to be an auto? Come on.
"Jobjoris" (Jobjoris)
01/04/2018 at 05:23, STARS: 1
Let me re-phrase: RHD cars in general that get to be driven by Krista as well. If on LHD roads.