by "bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
Published 12/29/2017 at 15:05
by "bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
Published 12/29/2017 at 15:05
Tags: Truck Yeah
; hybrid
; toyota
; tundra
; smug alert
STARS: 0
Two words: Tundra Hybrid.
They’ve flirted with a heavy duty Tundra , they’ve filed a patent on a 4-speed multi-stage hybrid system with a low-range transfer case after it , and it’s well-known that Toyota’s working on a hybrid Tundra .
The powertrain in the Lexus LC 500h and LS 500h is a 4-speed multi-stage hybrid system, and the LS 500h application has an available transfer case (Torsen center diff, and single-speed, though, rather than the part-time 4WD low-range transfer case that a truck would use). As it is, with a V6, it’s got 354 hp, and I think it’d be perfectly adequate for a half-ton Tundra, even with the 1.1 kWh battery that the LC/LS use (more capacity wouldn’t hurt, though).
However, there’s room for improvement, especially in a heavy-duty application, where you’ll be towing. AFAIK, the 8GR-FXS is nothing to write home about in terms of thermal efficiency, and Toyota’s got better engines. How about starting with the A25A-FXS, a 176 hp 2.5 liter with 41% peak thermal efficiency, and joining two of them at the crank, to make a V50A-FXS, at 5.0 liters, 352 hp, and still 41% peak efficiency? (And, add 59 hp to that for what the hybrid system gives you - 411 hp, with full power at very low speeds and CVT smoothness, can fight diesels.)
Then, add more battery - this will help greatly with towing in mountainous terrain (both with power climbing mountains, and with efficiency descending them). The Prius Prime’s battery could probably fit under the truck without too much trouble, and if you give it a plug, there’s tax credits available for the thing (which may also mean that even more battery wouldn’t be a bad idea, up to 16 kWh). Oh, and you could also have an inverter so that the truck could work as a generator, too, on a job site (or, if you’re towing a camper, maybe fully powering the camper off of the truck, when boondocking?)
Upshot is, you get something with a much simpler engine than diesel pickups, far less worries about fuel quality, systems with proven reliability (unlike the proven unreliability of modern diesels), lower maintenance requirements, while still having high fuel efficiency and power everywhere. And, there’s some cases where a plug-in capability could be helpful, too.
"Nothing" (nothingatalluseful)
12/29/2017 at 15:35, STARS: 0
Is the Tundra made by union manpower? No. They will never be a player in the heavy duty market in the commercial sector for that reason, which is where the money is. The heavy duty consumer market is a tiny slice.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
12/29/2017 at 15:38, STARS: 0
I like where you’re head is at but i am going to say some of your assumptions are questionable.
For one, you aren’t going to get 41% thermal efficiency with 2x the rotating mass and friction. But the idea of a 350 hp 5 liter v8 with decent thermal efficiency is totally within reason. As for the power needed to make a hybrid worth while in towing? Thats a a tough question to answer. For one the biggest limit for a vehicles towing capacity these days is payload and tongue weight. The F150 kills it here on account of it simply being lighter. The trouble is to be a half ton you need to stay under 8500 GVWR while still providing enough payload for 5 adults and a usable bed payload. Its not even the engineering strength thats the problem at that point, its simply mass. Adding heavy batteries isn’t going to help and in order to add enough batteries to make it up a grade while towing is going to be substantial. I don’t know how consumers would react to a hybrid truck that gives them less payload and towing or performance that drops off substantially when you want it most. I think there is a place for a hybrid pickup, but its got some real challenges to overcome too.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
12/29/2017 at 15:43, STARS: 1
They do pretty well there in the HINO brand. AND they already have hybrid trucks.
http://www.hino.com/hino-trucks-hino-195h-dc.html
"TheRevanchist" (therevanchist)
12/29/2017 at 15:48, STARS: 0
I think battery powered Nissan trucks would benefit greatly. It would definitely increase the power of my dad’s truck, anyway, even if it was powered by a potato with wires stuck in it.
"nermal" (nermal)
12/29/2017 at 15:52, STARS: 0
I think you need to separate the consumer and business sides of the HD truck market.
For the consumer side, you get people towing things like RVs and horse trailers, in addition to bros. For the business side, all manner of businesses using either the truck by itself, the truck with a plow or dump or other add-ons, and the truck towing a trailer.
Generally, the consumer side buys the high $$$ “luxury” trucks, and the business side the cheaper “work” trucks. Regardless, both sides demand towing, payload, and reliability. Adding in a fancy shmancy hybrid system will most likely cut down on all three of those.
There’s a reason why the gas engines in the HD pickups for all 3 manufacturers are both old designs and generally under-rated relative to 1/2 tons, and get crappy fuel mileage on top of that. They’re designed to last longer under higher loads.
In theory a hybrid HD truck is a good idea. In practice, there are a lot of obstacles to ovecome.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
12/29/2017 at 16:01, STARS: 1
Just for funsies I was trying to think about what it would take (battery wise) to tow, say 9500 lbs up a 15 mile grade. if we assume we need 400 hp for customer demands and the engine is giving 350, you need 50 additional HP. 50 hp = 37 kw. a 15 mile grade at 70 takes 22% of an hour so you would need 22% of 37kwh (ignoring losses) to make it to the top before running out. about 8kwh. You can’t run a battery completely flat so figure a “dead” battery is 75% depth of discharge so you need an additional 25% or 10 kwhr. figure about 150 lbs and $2500 in batteries. Not as bad as I would have though. Granted the entire hybridization I suspect would add close to 200-300 lbs for hardware and cooling. Truthfully its much cheaper than a diesel option and would save you more money more of the time (unladen and city vs highway laden). It could work.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
12/29/2017 at 16:05, STARS: 0
Oh, I think there should be both half-ton and heavy-duty variants - the half-ton can use the V6, where the heavy-duty uses a V8.
That said, you have twice the rotating mass and friction, but you also have twice the cylinders, displacement, and power, exactly countering that.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
12/29/2017 at 16:06, STARS: 1
Or use a 2-speed transfer case that keeps the Torsen center diff like in assorted 4Runner, Sequoia, and Land Cruiser variants.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
12/29/2017 at 16:08, STARS: 0
That’s...not how thermal efficiency works. Toyota may get into the HD space, but frankly I don’t think they are remotely interested. There was talk about a diesel Tundra but I don’t see that coming to pass either. I remember Toyota talking about both these things YEARS ago and they kinda fissiled out.
"Nothing" (nothingatalluseful)
12/29/2017 at 16:29, STARS: 0
The trades that use 1 ton pickups is a much different market, though. I have quite a few union family members, in laws, neighbors, etc. When I had the Tundra, all commented on how much they liked the truck, but they could never get one. Those are your tinners, metal workers, HVAC, etc guys that all drive company pickups right now.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
12/29/2017 at 16:34, STARS: 0
See the more I think about it the more I realize there is really only one use case for them:
Trucks that spend a lot of their life in stop and go
Thats a hard sell to consumers who want to believe their truck lives wont just be to and from work, but they have some deeper more noble purpose. And its a tough sell to heavy trades where maintenance and running costs are the bottom line. Its an easy sell to trades that do spend most of their miles in and around town in stop and go though. Like delivery.
"METLSKUL" (metlskul)
12/30/2017 at 00:05, STARS: 0
You guys are high! The argument that a diesel pickup is this gross complicated beast is ridiculous. There is 5% more energy to be had in a diesel molecule compared with gasoline, not to mention less refining costs. With a sequential turbo setup you could run a small displacement clean diesel say 2.8-3.0 liters coupled to a generator to drive wheel motors or an integrated electric drive system as toyota proposed. A thousand pound feet of torque would be an easy number to attain in a combined system. For you guys hung up on batteries, regenetive braking could store enough energy to aid dead stop propulsion or help with city driving. Toyota is the king of diesel motors everywhere but here. We’re just to dumb to let them show us.
P.s. knock it off with the Union promotion. Those unions are the reason trucks cost a 100g in the first place. Ugh