by "Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
Published 12/15/2017 at 17:38
by "Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
Published 12/15/2017 at 17:38
Tags: F-35
; F-22
; Rules of engagement
STARS: 0
More after the jump.
One of the main premises of the F-35 was that it would engage long before the opposing force ever saw it on radar. I’ve always thought this was a bad assumption. If the opposing side developed stealth technology to the point where our radar couldn’t track them, air to air engagements return to dogfights conducted within visual range. You could argue that our radar is better than opposing stealth tech but that is a conversation for another place and time.
This article highlights another aspect that may have been over looked.
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Visual recognition and confirmation prior to hostilities. Granted not all encounters will begin like this but those that do don’t look great for the F-35. If the F-22, a dedicated air to air fighter, starts a a disadvantage when sighting opposing fighters, the F-35 probably is at an even greater disadvantage.
I have no idea if the article is accurate but it is interesting if it is.
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
12/15/2017 at 17:54, STARS: 6
Business Insider is not the most trusted source for much of anything, really. I can’t speak to specific capabilities, but I’m sure the F-22 could hold its own just fine. And claiming that the Raptor is at a disadvantage because it can’t show off its weapons is, well, silly. I can guaran-damn-tee you that any F-22 flying over Syria is armed, and the Russkies know it. As I see it, the only real disadvantage of the F-22 is that we don’t have nearly enough of them.
"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer)
12/15/2017 at 17:57, STARS: 1
Are you guys really afraid of Russia?
If you spent, I don’t know... about a sixth of your military budget on cyber espionage and fucking with em you could take them down. Russia is nothing but a dying power in the hands of someone that best presents Jason in The Sound and The Fury.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
12/15/2017 at 17:59, STARS: 0
I agree about just because you can’t show weapons doesn’t mean you are at a disadvantage. My point was more along the lines of the engagement itself.
The F-35 and F-22 are built to use their stealth to their advantage to win engagements. If the ROE dictates that visual communication is necessary before any engagement, it eliminates any advantage the F-22 and F-35 stealth have. My understanding is that part of the rational for the F-35 was its beyond visual range capabilities. That rational seems eliminated
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
12/15/2017 at 18:00, STARS: 2
Thank you!
Also, although there may an argument to be made that the Russian fight may have a maneuverability advantage in close quarters if a Raptor were to allow itself to get sucked in that close (ambush?). If hostilities broke out and tactical operations commenced, I suspect the Raptor would have the distinct advantage of choosing when and how to engage from BVR. Business Insider even concluded this in one of their linked stories .
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
12/15/2017 at 18:00, STARS: 3
I saw this article earlier today and was laughing inside. I guaren-fucking-tee that a Russian that sees an F22 is probably scared shitless if he’s in the wrong air space. We do have a bit of history here, at least with the F18.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/21/politics/us-syria-russia-dogfight/index.html
"Party-vi" (party-vi)
12/15/2017 at 18:00, STARS: 1
I feel like, if you and I were to square off in an alley and I saw your knuckle dusters and knife, but you couldn’t see my baseball bat, I would probably be at an advantage.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
12/15/2017 at 18:01, STARS: 0
What I’m arguing against is the trillions spent on a fighter that is only at an advantage when operating beyond visual range. ROE eliminates that advantage.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
12/15/2017 at 18:01, STARS: 0
We are not scared of Russia, we are BFF’s now that they have bought our elections and placed small hands in power.
"DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time" (dc3ls-)
12/15/2017 at 18:09, STARS: 0
Not so much an all out war, but I’m sure you’ve heard about the couple of proxy wars we’ve had with them over the years.
"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer)
12/15/2017 at 18:09, STARS: 0
It was a silly program at best! I must agree with you.
I don’t know how much protection the US really needs, its hard to quantify because its the most powerful country and it makes sense that it has the most powerful army. Today it tends to be a show of whose got the biggest dick apparently... and you can’t put a price on that!
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
12/15/2017 at 18:09, STARS: 1
If it comes to the point where we are actually shooting to destroy Russian fighters, that means we are at war, and the ROEs go out the window. At that point, you will see the full value of stealth, BVR fighting, and the team that is the F-35 and F-22.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
12/15/2017 at 18:10, STARS: 6
Is that a baseball bat in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?
"John Norris (AngryDrifter)" (angrydrifter)
12/15/2017 at 18:14, STARS: 3
But the rules of engagement, as they stand, put the US’s top fighter jet at a distinct disadvantage if the worst happened and a dogfight broke out between the world’s top military powers over Syria.
We are not at war with Russia. If we were the rules of engagement would be very different.
Let see, you can pick one of two fighters. #1 may have some advantages in a close up dogfight, #2 is likely to locate and kill #1 before #1 knows it’s there and #2 doesn’t ever have to get close to #1.
It’s not a difficult choice.
"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer)
12/15/2017 at 18:15, STARS: 0
Yeah but thats boring, just tell like, Idk... the CIA or some Orwellian organization like that to nuke their internet or something.
What the West doesn’t understand about China and Russia is that they make them powerful by being so shamelessly capitalistic (and this is coming from a Mexican! by far a more capitalist country than the US)
Europe and the US could drive the Chinese economy into the ground in a week with an import freeze. Talking about freezing too, Is Europe really going to freeze to death without Gazprom? I seriously doubt it. Its not a conspiracy; its just that nothing is as fragile as it seems, while yes both economies would suffer in the short term, its not like the US nor Europe lack the resources to maintain themselves, maybe the CEO’s would simply need to buy a v8 Ferrari instead of v12s because their profits went down.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
12/15/2017 at 18:17, STARS: 0
ROE still exists within a war. It would change in a direct conflict but that is another topic.
I do value stealth. I just think the moment you put all your eggs in one basket with a machine that is supposed to do everything well, BVR and the F-35 in this case, you are sunk. Many engagements may start that way and end that way but not all. The F-35 has sacrificed performance and advantages while standing behind the assumption that it will engage from BVR. That assumption is mind blowing to me. I can’t even imagine how that rational got perpetuated.
"DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time" (dc3ls-)
12/15/2017 at 18:20, STARS: 0
Europe or America isn’t going to do that over Syria or the Ukraine though. They’ll just sell weapons and send SF guys to help the goodest guys to try to keep them in check.
Not really sure what the US government’s or populace’s view of China expanding influence in Africa is, but I don’t think anyone is very concerned about China at the moment. At least in terms of territorial/influence expansion.
"My bird IS the word" (mybirdistheword)
12/15/2017 at 18:21, STARS: 0
It’s really just a stopgap until they can put lasers on the jet. That is what it was designed for, not dogfighting. 360 degree laser coverage.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
12/15/2017 at 18:21, STARS: 0
Let see, you can pick one of two fighters. #1 may have some advantages in a close up dogfight, #2 is likely to locate and kill #1 before #1 knows it’s there and #2 doesn’t ever have to get close to #1.
This is the logic that I can’t accept. There are many reasons as to why a dogfight would start within visual range. To assume that you will always be BVR for engagements is a huge assumption. The proportions and consequences of that assumption can’t be understated.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
12/15/2017 at 18:25, STARS: 0
Yuuggee hands. No complaints ever. You can do whatever you want when you have the yugest hands ever. The greatest really.
"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer)
12/15/2017 at 18:25, STARS: 0
Lets just hope the world doesn’t explode.
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"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
12/15/2017 at 18:27, STARS: 1
ROE still exists within a war.
Of course they do. Perhaps I should have said the current ROEs.
I just think the moment you put all your eggs in one basket....
I agree, but we don’t have all our eggs in the same basket. We have at least two baskets, the F-22 and the F-35. The F-35 needs the F-22, but at the same time, the F-35 significantly enhances the capabilities of the F-22. In many ways, the F-35 is a force multiplier more than it is a force in itself. Not only does it boost the F-22, it integrates with other fourth generation fighters to make them more capable. So it’s probably unlikely that you’d ever have an F-35 in a close-quarters dogfight. That’s the F-22's job.
"E90M3" (e90m3)
12/15/2017 at 18:30, STARS: 0
I’m not, I had a fucking blast there.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
12/15/2017 at 18:31, STARS: 0
All that makes sense. If that was how the jets were deployed and operated, I wouldn’t be upset. The F-35 was sold/marketed as a replacement for the F-22, a jet that could do all roles. One jet for everything to minimize part complexity on the back end, economies of scale.....
That is why the F-22 line was shutdown and they aren’t produced anymore.
"diplodicus forgot his password" (diplodicusforgothispassword)
12/15/2017 at 18:36, STARS: 0
Who’s to say there’s not an f-22 following behind the fighter engaging the bogey. If they don’t stand down they’re free game and the f-22 pulling up the rear has the advantage.
"John Norris (AngryDrifter)" (angrydrifter)
12/15/2017 at 18:39, STARS: 0
This is the logic that I can’t accept.
Well okay then.
"Matsayz" (matsayz)
12/15/2017 at 18:42, STARS: 1
Pretty much a “we need clicks” article. The F-22 can um... open its middle doors and roll over to show them. But it’s pretty safe to assume if the F-22 is flying over SYRIA that it’s loaded for engagement.
Plus, they need to talk about pilot training. Russia does not have enough air worthy planes to thoroughly train its pilots as well as we do. The expertise of the pilot and the ability of the pilot to fly the plane can play a bigger role than the “stealth” aspect that everyone likes to comment on.
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
12/15/2017 at 18:43, STARS: 1
The F-35 was sold/marketed as a replacement for the F-22
Except that I’m not so sure it was. The F-35 was never intended to be an air superiority dogfighter, which is what the F-22 is. They really have completely different missions.
The F-35A is envisioned as a replacement for the F-16 (and supposedly the A-10, though I’m skeptical), the F-35B will replace the F/A-18C/D and the Harrier, while the F-35C is considered a replacement for the F/A-18C/D and a complement to the F/A-18E/F. With the possible exception of the F-16, none of those aircraft being replaced are air superiority fighters. The last true AS fighter we built (before the F-22) was the F-15C.
Even with the arrival of the F-35, the F-22 isn’t going anywhere.
"promoted by the color red" (whenindoubtflatout)
12/15/2017 at 19:27, STARS: 0
Fighter tactics is a helluva lot more complicated than the article suggests. Stealth is stealth, but remember that the Russians shot down a U-2.
"You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much" (youcantellafinn)
12/16/2017 at 00:09, STARS: 2
Don’t forget we’ve still got massive numbers of arguably the premier air superiority fighter still flying in the F-15. As a system the combo of F-15’s with their massive radar and dogfighting capability, F-35’s with their BVR capability and communication suite, and F-22’s with their BVR, dogfighting and communications capability we’ve got a lot of air to air capability. Add in our AWACS birds and everything’s ability to communicate and share data and the USAF has a very formidable air combat system.
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
12/16/2017 at 00:45, STARS: 0
Absolutely.
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
12/16/2017 at 07:56, STARS: 0
That is incorrect. the f-35 was a multi role fighter for export, to replace the f 16 and 18. the f22 cannot be sold. f-22 production was stopped becasue each one was 150 million.
the f22 is an f1 cars built for outright performance.
the f35 is more of a le mans homologation prototype, designed for more rugged endurance, but not as fast.