by "mkbruin, Atlas VP" (mkbruin)
Published 12/05/2017 at 16:25
by "mkbruin, Atlas VP" (mkbruin)
Published 12/05/2017 at 16:25
No Tags
STARS: 4
This is a dumpster fire of a political thread, quick hit, 30,000ft response.
Well, looks like politically shit has hit the fan lately, here’s a quick Roundup.
1) ABC news’s Bryan Williams fucked up a major fact in an attempt to smear a republican president. This isn’t the first time he’s done it, either. Subsequently on the news, DOW dropped 400pts. Result: ABC issues a retraction, suspends Williams, and indicates he is now barred from reporting on Trump. Monday ABC published another false story about the administration and was forced to issue another retraction. Hey press, try not to fuck things up so bad. Please.
2) The supreme Court is hearing a case about whether a baker has the right to refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding based on religious grounds. This case is heavily nuanced, but early indications appear that the baker will win. I agree he should. Now put the pitchforks away, let me explain. I support gay marriage; however, A wedding is a religious ceremony, and the government should not compel any individual to participate in a religious ceremony that is against personal beliefs. Or take the artist approach. Just as I would not expect the state to compel a Jewish artist to accept the commissioning of a Hitler painting, the same belief applies here. I do not believe that the state should compel specific labor or commerce that goes against beliefs. There are plenty of other bakers, plenty of other artists. There is no need to compel commerce of this one specific individuals labor.
3) Sexual assault. Conyers resigned, thank God. The two front-runners to fill his seat are his son and his nephew. Please God someone remind Detroit that it’s not his family’s seat, but belongs to the people. I’m tired of political dynasty. Franken is rumored to be in the process of getting shoved to the exit. Good riddance. And Roy More is still a sleazy creepy fuck, but the pollsters have no idea what’s going to happen. Its like polling by Cybill. Fuck him too.
4) Russia investigation. Mueller had to release a top investigator from his team due to conflicts. Those conflicts include: sending multiple emails shitting on Trump. But dig deeper. This is the guy who personally changed Comey’s draft of the Clinton announcement from using the phrase Gross Negligence (the legal standard, and Comey’s words) and changing it to simply careless. This is also the guy who interviewed and nailed Flynn for lying to investigators... And also the guy who interviewed Clinton’s associates but failed to nail them for also lying to the FBI. There’s more suspicious partisan action here too.... One guy wouldn’t be an issue, but another of Mueller’s top investigators is also being exposed as emailing the AG who “resisted” Trump and got fired in the first weeks of the administration with heaping praise, exposing himself as another partisan and starting to raise concerns about the impartiality of Mueller’s team. It’s not paranoia if they really are out to get you.
5) Tax bill passed the Senate and heads to reconciliation. Republican lawmakers break their arms trying to pat themselves on the back while Democrats loudly proclaim Armageddon and announce that Republicans want Americans to die. Like everything, the truth lies in the middle. The tax reform is necessary, and a reconciled bill is likely to be a good first step, but we’re completely fucked no matter what unless the boomers in Congress finally get around to the fiscally responsible governance that’s been promised for as long as I’ve been alive.
There’s more, but I’ve got to a shit ton of work to get back to.
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
12/05/2017 at 17:16, STARS: 7
A wedding is a religious ceremony
Some of the time, yes, but not always.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
12/05/2017 at 17:23, STARS: 0
Re: tax legislation. Got this email today:
Dear Colleague:
Congress is working quickly to pass tax legislation. The bill (HR 1) approved by the House of Representatives makes tuition waivers for graduate students who serve as teaching or research assistants taxable income. This will increase tax burden for current students and may discourage others from pursuing a PhD. The Senate bill does not tax graduate student tuition waivers. As the House and Senate negotiate final language, they need to hear from graduate students and the research community to ensure that the final bill does not include the tuition waiver tax. Please click here to email your Senators/Representative TODAY . Suggested text is provided but you should include a personal appeal about how taxing graduate student tuition waivers would affect you or your institution. Please also share this alert with your graduate students and other faculty members.
Sincerely,
Tom Baldwin
FASEB President
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
12/05/2017 at 17:24, STARS: 4
Your analysis on the gay marriage cake misses two aspects. First, marriage is not necessarily a religious ceremony; it can be but the classsification is well beyond religion. Second and way more importantly, a Jewish person can turn away the Hitler work because being a fan of hitlrr is not a protected class. Race, ethnicity, gender, and the like are protected classes; I think the court is still narrowing in on if sexuality is a protected class and how much protection to afford it. A better analogy would be a painter who refused to paint a Martin Luther king jr for a black person painting because his Norse religion told him he shouldn’t paint pictures of black people. The painter would lose I’m thinking, the states interests in protecting his religion is secondary to protecting a person from that kind of racial discrimination.
"sm70- why not Duesenberg?" (sm70-whynotduesenberg)
12/05/2017 at 17:30, STARS: 2
Re the baker thing...
What if it was a matter of interracial marriage?
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
12/05/2017 at 17:34, STARS: 7
Last I checked, Nazis aren’t a protected class. Although that may have changed recently...
"SVTyler" (svtyler)
12/05/2017 at 17:37, STARS: 6
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
It’s not paranoia if they really are out to get you.
They’re out to get Trump’s campaign because they committed a whole bunch of crimes, but don’t let that distract you from your regularly-scheduled whataboutisms and deflection. Just keep telling yourself this is all just a liberal conspiracy.
"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce)
12/05/2017 at 17:42, STARS: 1
2) Yeah I don’t want to use the term “slippery slope” but I don’t disagree with the take that a bakery should not be forced to sell a cake to someone and it was a waste of court time to try and do it. On the same level though, this also means it is fair and just if the person refused said “Hey this place refused me service and told me it was because I was gay” and then let the bad press make them think if that is a hill to die on.
4) “It’s not paranoia if they really are out to get you.” - I mean, considering trump has been trying to gut any power to be investigated since he took office, I think he already made it clear he is out to get someone. After the laughably awful way they handled firing Comey, let’s make a frank distinction here - The FBI is not partisan, but they were definitely attacked and insulted repeatedly by the current administration. People can whine that Mueller threw a bunch of people to the curb at the mere thought of them being overtly biased (which was a weird news article to read that he was actively removing people who were likely to screw something up....) but it’s a good sign it’s being taken seriously and the findings, whatever they are, will be harder to immediately refute with “Well the people doing it are ____”.
5) I have many friends in graduate school or similar programs on scholarship. This *IS* the apocalypse for them since they have no idea whatsoever how things will roll out and simply hoping for the best won’t cut it. Many will likely have to change their program or drop from a PhD down to a master’s or something since their programs will either drop them or disappear altogether. And that’s just one group. For most of us, it means nothing, but I fail to see why, for it being priority #1, it does so little to help anyone and seems to do a lot of bullshit that helps no one and punishes people actively working towards the “American Dream” those same lawmakers trot out all the time. Pelosi is dramatic, as are all the politicians, but this doesn’t fix much of anything.
"Nothing" (nothingatalluseful)
12/05/2017 at 17:46, STARS: 3
Brian Ross is the ABC individual you’re thinking of.
As far as the rest of politics, it’s politics as usual. What if instead of wanting a cake made, the couple went to buy something at the store, I dunno, any store...say a mom and pop hardware store that said “we don’t serve your kind around here”. That’s nearly what that is, propped up with the religion excuse. It’s not a Christian bake shop.
Moore will get elected. It’s what will happen in Alabama. I was given a start reminded about the “old south” when my mother in law and her husband came out here to visit over Thanksgiving. Even the women that have accused more have said they won’t vote for a Democrat. Moore will get elected, and nothing will happen. Status quo.
Russia...I see a lot of “but her emails” responses when it comes to that. Quite honestly, anyone will find any hooks of partisanship on any investigation that is going against “their” party. Anyone will look to find a reason to de-legitimize the investigation. Apparently canning him wasn’t enough, the whole thing should just be dropped, right?
Tax bill, well, wee. Politicians aren’t politicking if they aren’t simply passing bills that they don’t either bother reading, as long as their kickback is in there somewhere.
"DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time" (dc3ls-)
12/05/2017 at 17:53, STARS: 7
Internet political discussion? *Cracks knuckles*
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"Under_Score" (tomtheatum)
12/05/2017 at 17:53, STARS: 2
The Russia investigation has cost a lot of money, too.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
12/05/2017 at 17:56, STARS: 3
2)
Your understanding of the cake case is flawed. Whether a wedding is religious or not has nothing to do with the cake case. The case is about one person claiming their religion compels them to discriminate against others, and therefore must be allowed to do that discriminating because it’s compelled by their religion.
Religious people’s objections to gay marriage are not because the weddings are religious ceremonies, their objection is because they believe their religion forbids two people of the same gender to marry each other in any way shape or form.
The same questions would apply if someone went to a Jehovah’s Witness bakery, asked for a birthday cake, and were kicked out by the baker because Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in celebrating birthdays.
As for the answer to this question, personally I think people hiding behind their religion as justification to discriminate in any kind of way is a load of shit and fuck those assholes and their shitty religions. BUT I also think the couple should’ve just gotten a cake somewhere else and maybe left a negative review on Yelp. This case is a terrible one to try and use to set a legal precedent that forbids people from discriminating because they think their religion says they need to discriminate.
4)
If Mueller was so bad then Trump’s justice department wouldn’t have appointed him in the first place. Don’t like him? Too bad.
All this Russia crap is a distraction. I’ll fully admit that in the scheme of bad shit Trump and the GOP have done, it’s not all that high up my list. It’s entirely possible Trump and his campaign staff really were that dumb and got played by Russian intelligence. But if they did in fact fuck things up in some kind of illegal way, I’m all for using it as a way to get rid of them, because they suck.
5)
The only thing that reconciling the two tax bills will be in the middle of is two different bad Republican ideas on how to tweak the economy.
Between the two the House version is less bad, because the Senate, among other things, repeals the ACA’s health insurance mandate while doing nothing meaningful to stabilize the fallout that will create in the health insurance marketplace.
The fact is that both versions of this bill give small temporary tax breaks to the majority of Americans, while removing a lot of meaningful deductions, and giving huge, more-permanent tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy. The balance of tax breaks of both versions of the bill is so much more heavily skewed toward the upper tax brackets than any previous tax cuts, including those under George W. Bush.
If you mistakenly believe trickle-down economics works (which it doesn’t), then in effect both versions of the tax bill are debt-increasing economic stimulus packages. Why are Republicans trying to push an economic stimulus bill that doesn’t help the middle class, will inevitably lead to spending cuts on programs for lower- and middle-income people, and will increase the national debt? And why is the Senate tacking on a nice little fuck you to the health insurance marketplace in their version?
"fhrblig" (fhrblig)
12/05/2017 at 17:58, STARS: 4
If I want to buy condoms from your convenience store, and condoms are against your religious beliefs, do you get to refuse to sell them to me? Does selling condoms to me mean you’re participating in my sexual activities?
"That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms" (thatbastardkurtis5)
12/05/2017 at 18:25, STARS: 1
I think where this analogy falls down is that if condoms were against your religious beliefs and you were the sort of person who cared, you simply wouldn’t stock them. You can’t force me to stock something I don’t want to sell in my store, which is basically what the baker is doing...not selling items he doesn’t want to sell.
Personally, I love people having the ability to discriminate against folks because it lets me know where not to buy. If I’m buying an item, I want to get it from the guy who wants to sell to me, not somebody that secretly hates my guts.
All that said, I think the baker is an idiot for not selling to them, but I don’t like the precedent of forcing people to provide services they don’t want to provide.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
12/05/2017 at 18:39, STARS: 0
Bryan Williams is a habitual liar and exaggerator, no surprise. And I’m still holding my nose and voting for Roy Moore because the alternative (Doug Jones) is a great guy and a friend of a friend...but an abortion supporter because of party line. So I’m stuck with the hebephile, the lesser of two evils.
"sony1492" (sony1492)
12/05/2017 at 18:39, STARS: 1
I don’t often agree with your point of view but in the case of the Baker your right. I think using religion as the reason for refusing is bs but on the other hand I want the freedom to refuse service to racists and the like. If I owned a catering service and a Neo nazi group asked me to cater their conference id tell them no, On the grounds that I don’t want my business associated with them
"boredalways" (boredalway666)
12/05/2017 at 18:42, STARS: 0
Real quick please provide the source for #4. I would like to learn more.
Also, I thought you were going to request authorship in the CL?
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
12/05/2017 at 18:43, STARS: 7
“Racists” aren’t a protected class, so you would be well within your rights to refuse service to someone with a swastika shirt on. The OP’s analogy is false and shows a lack of understanding regarding the constitutional questions presented by the case.
"ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)" (adabofoppo)
12/05/2017 at 18:46, STARS: 5
ABC fucked up with that report. They handled the matter internally, and appropriately I feel.
Please go on about how the ‘liberal’ media is out to sully a republiCon pres*dent when Faux Noise fails to retract factually inaccurate statements every single second they are broadcasting, nor do their presenters suffer such harsh consequences for their inaccuracies and at times outright lies.
Whataboutism goes both directions.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
12/05/2017 at 18:49, STARS: 6
I mean, don’t side with a child molester seems like such an easy choice...until you throw religion in the mix.
"SVTyler" (svtyler)
12/05/2017 at 18:52, STARS: 3
Still way
less than Trump’s
golf outings
.
"sony1492" (sony1492)
12/05/2017 at 19:02, STARS: 1
Shows how much I know. Though maybe a POS Baker should legally be allowed to be a POS Baker. Would you really want/trust his cake? (Playing devil’s advocate now for the sake of discussion)
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
12/05/2017 at 19:05, STARS: 1
“Child” is culturally relative, but that doesn’t excuse the law (or rape..ever). But infanticide is pretty clear to me and I’m not wavering on that — or the death penalty. Both are overreaching, IMHO, because we are fallible.
"SVTyler" (svtyler)
12/05/2017 at 19:23, STARS: 5
Honest question, and I do mean that: why just not vote at all? I’m not going to debate abortion since neither of us will change our mind, but if your other choice is a sexual predator who preys on kids (which let’s be honest, a 14-year-old is a child in both maturity and the eyes of the law) it seems like a great election day to stay home.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
12/05/2017 at 19:28, STARS: 1
Yeah, it’s getting more likely. The key thing for me is knowing that I screwed up plenty in my early 30s (not like that) and I do still question the veracity and timing of these claims. Moore has been an easy, high-profile target for a long time, so it’s a little surprising they waited so long.
But even more than that, I see Moore as a non-Trumper — even more so than the Democratic opponent. I voted for Moore in the special election strongly because Trump didn’t endorse him. I want to see the Republican party implode more, and I see Moore as a means to accomplishing that in some small way. Trump hates him.
"Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle" (1500sand535)
12/05/2017 at 19:30, STARS: 4
Sometimes you just have to accept that no one will bother to understand what they are talking about.
"SVTyler" (svtyler)
12/05/2017 at 19:47, STARS: 1
Honestly I’d chalk the timing of the allegations up to the more recent sexual assault revelations in the entertainment industry and government as a whole rather than being just a purely political maneuver against Moore specifically. For the longest time victims were silenced or ignored or disbelieved, especially in places like Alabama and especially involving powerful people like a state judge, so these women are probably coming out now because they feel like only now will they get justice for what happened.
And while Moore himself seems to be not that keen on Trump,
the RNC and Trump himself have endorsed the dude
. If you’re looking for someone to burn the party down it’ll be hard when he’s indebted to the ones running the show.
"DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully" (danceswithrotors)
12/05/2017 at 19:59, STARS: 7
I support gay marriage; however, A wedding is a religious ceremony, and the government should not compel any individual to participate in a religious ceremony that is against personal beliefs.
Nah. Fuck you. Weddings aren’t inherently religious, bruh. So, shove that in your pipe and smoke it. Dude was asked to bake a cake...
Just $0.02 from a friendly, lesbian Oppo...
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
12/05/2017 at 20:46, STARS: 1
Definitely not, but if you allow people to descriminate in such a way, you go back to helping y create a segregated society.
"Tekamul" (tekamulburner)
12/05/2017 at 21:03, STARS: 5
Your moral compass is very broken.
"Mercedes Streeter" (smart)
12/05/2017 at 21:05, STARS: 3
On “2)”...
Please, try to listen to the few LGBTQ people that share Oppo with you. We live this every day.
To someone who is gay or is trans, saying something like “I support same-sex marriage but I’m okay with the Baker denying them service” is unhelpful. It’s actually quite harmful.
To me, it’s not much different than the long line of people in my life who have told me “I support trans people but I think they should use the restrooms of their birth gender.”
Sorry, but those people don’t support us. They can say they support trans people all they want but if they cannot see nor wish to learn why bathroom bills are bad then they’re no ally.
So I mean, I know you mean well mkbruin and I love that about you; so that’s why I ask that you listen to why all of Oppo’s LGBTQ people hate this cake thing.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
12/05/2017 at 21:29, STARS: 1
Are these comments apart of your next satire piece where people from Alabama try to explain away the acts of a child molester while not knowing the difference between an infant and a fetus?
For real, I thought your first comment was satire.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
12/05/2017 at 22:10, STARS: 1
I do differentiate between a hebephile and a pedophile, although both are legally “child molesters.” However, I also subscribe to a degree of moral relativism (very popular with liberals) that says that small towns in the ‘60s were full of weird child bride situations and it wasn’t terribly unusual. Today it certainly is.
Infanticide is an exaggeration, no doubt. But only a little. We often consider pregnant women’s fetuses to be victims when it’s due to an outside force, but we allow it under the guise of the woman’s choice. We collectively need to maybe reconsider that inconsistency.
"sony1492" (sony1492)
12/05/2017 at 23:18, STARS: 0
I agree
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
12/05/2017 at 23:36, STARS: 1
Infanticide isn’t an exaggeration, it’s a completely incorrect term. Words have meanings. Interesting that you confuse abortion with infanticide, but then take the time to make the distinction between hebephilia and pedophilia...
I’ve honestly never met anyone who would even bother to think about the difference between hebephilia and pedophilia. If I ever met a man in real life who tried to make that distinction to me, I would make sure he never stepped foot near my children. Absolutely disgusting.
I don’t buy the bullshit that either political party gives a shit about the lives of children. I’ve watched both wage wars in which tens of thousands of children have been killed.
"I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker" (qaaaaa)
12/06/2017 at 00:07, STARS: 1
Also, building off the premise of a wedding being religious is faulty as weddings are not religious by nature anymore in the West.
Furthermore, arguing religious freedom will not work. Remember that Kim Davis who was a clerk of the court and the only one who could marry an LGBT couple? Religious freedom didn’t fly there. The main difference between that case and this is that Davis refused to provide a public service (as her job) to a couple on religious grounds. This violated the first ammendment.
In this case, affirming the baker’s right to refuse clients on religious ground is a private sector issue, so that same legal argument is moot. However, if the court rules in the baker’s favor, it opens the door for other legalized religious discrimination- it will be legal for a minister not acting in a governmental capacity to refuse a biracial marriage (ie, any person who can perform a marriage in a legal sense, but is not a government employee, to refuse any marriage on that specific ground). Since religious devotion is inherently hard to determine as an outsider, it also might allow for discrimination not borne of legitimate beliefs-ie, a cab driver can refuse to pick up a person of another religion or race, an employer can refuse to hire LGBT people, or a private school can refuse a student for race or sexuality.
However, with Gorsuch in the SC, we can expect a win for “religious freedom” and “traditional values,” thinly veiled codewords for fascism.
Edit: clarification- the primary argument is that the cake is art. This argument is dumb, just like the entire case.
"Milky" (jordanmielke)
12/06/2017 at 09:55, STARS: 0
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
"Mercedes Streeter" (smart)
12/06/2017 at 13:48, STARS: 2
Yeah, for me it’s pretty simple: If you work a job in which you may have to serve a group you don’t like (and let’s not bring Nazis into this, Nazis aren’t a protected group), either suck it up and do the job you signed up for or quit.
In a similar sense, this also applies to police officers who work on “shoot first, ask questions later”. The job inherently carries at least some risk that you may not come home one day. Don’t like it, quit.
"Party-vi" (party-vi)
12/07/2017 at 08:13, STARS: 1
I’m only here because I was clearing flags, but #2. Marriage has nothing to do with the case (also marriage is a legal act and the state does not give a shit about the religious aspect. You have a marriage license you apply for and purchase, and your tax filing status changes).
There is no argument for Phillips that his service is protected as speech because it’s a fucking cake. He is not making them to express himself, as they are made-to-order specifically by and for customers. Phillips denying service to customers based on their sexual orientation is exactly the same as denying service to customers based on their race or religion in the eyes of Colorado state law, plain and simple.
Besides, Phillips can’t respect the sacred institution of marriage that much since he’s stated he would rather make a cake for a marriage between two dogs than a gay couple.