by "bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
Published 12/01/2017 at 10:21
by "bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
Published 12/01/2017 at 10:21
Tags: truck
; politics
; cdl
STARS: 1
After the jump.
The US automotive market is one that’s heavily dominated by light-duty pickup trucks, with the F-150, Silverado, and Ram outselling all other vehicles (with the Sierra not being far behind). And, crossovers that are legally considered light trucks are incredibly popular - by the end of the year, the RAV4 will probably be the #4 best selling vehicle in the US market. On top of that, plenty of people daily drive medium-duty trucks - the 3/4 ton and 1 ton luxury pickup is a common sight on American roads.
Vehicles that are classified as trucks get exemptions from a lot of regulations, for legitimate reasons - a vehicle designed as a working vehicle, as pickups are, is simply going to have higher emissions and fuel consumption than a normal passenger car, it’s a fact of life. And, the same goes for off-road vehicles - higher drivetrain drag, and worse aerodynamics are facts of life for that vehicle class. Some design decisions may also impact safety, although as far as I’m aware, the NHTSA requires light trucks to meet passenger car standards since 1999. However, the pedestrian safety regulations that most cars comply with aren’t present in the US, so US-specific designs (which includes much of the light truck market) don’t bother complying.
In any case, I’d argue that the death of the station wagon in the 1980s, as well as the death of the car (in favor of the CUV) today, were set up by these loopholes. Instead of making cars better, big cars got replaced with things that could be pitched as light trucks. Some of them, especially in the 1970s into the 1990s, actually were light trucks with some luxuries, but eventually the crossover was arrived at - a “light truck” by virtue of having “off-road features”, but it’s really just a tall car. (Note that the Chrysler minivans were like this as well, and the PT Cruiser was famously classified as a light truck instead of a car to improve the truck average efficiency, rather than reduce the car average.)
Here’s where the take gets spicy. I’d argue that if a vehicle is getting exemptions from regulations, or relaxed regulations, due to its utility as a work vehicle, a CDL should be required to drive it. I don’t want to ban these vehicles, because there’s a legitimate need for true work vehicles, but if they’re going to continue to get exemptions from the standards, there needs to be some check to ensure that they’re being used for actual work.
You’d also need to change some laws to allow automakers to classify things as cars when they want to be seen as a car - situations like the Subaru Outback being forced into the light truck classification, allegedly against Subaru’s will, shouldn’t happen. A couple other things that may be necessary would be grandfathering of existing vehicles, at least for a limited time, due to the huge number of trucks in the fleet and the hardship of replacing them with non-trucks, as well as possibly subsidizing CDL training for a limited time.
But, if this happened, you’d see a few things happen. Those that really need trucks would still be able to get them, by getting a CDL. Those that do drive trucks would be held to higher driving standards, making things safer. Consumer trucks - which would still exist I’d guess, as there’s organic market demand - would have to be reclassified as cars to be accessible to the market, meaning that they’d need to gain quite a bit of efficiency to not drag down car CAFE too much, likely making them smaller, lighter, and safer for other road users. Ultra-high efficiency cars may also be launched to compensate. Crossovers would also be pushed into car CAFE, forcing them to be more efficient and likely providing a disincentive for automakers to sell them at all.
The only thing I’m not sure about is how to handle rental trucks - I think it’s something that should be encouraged to discourage using a truck as a commuter car except that one time a year you need to drag a boat or move a sofa. Maybe a short-term rental exemption to the CDL requirement could exist...
All in all, I think things would be better this way, really, and it’d effectively close the truck loophole to our emissions and efficiency standards.
"bob and john" (bobandjohn)
12/01/2017 at 10:28, STARS: 1
I propose a slight change.
have 2 different CDLS. a light and a heavy duty, with the light duty being cheaper and a little easier to get.
I say this, because I would one of the ppl who would own a truck...but I would only use it to haul some motorcycles around time to time. usually it would just sit still in a parking spot.
"MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s" (mastermario)
12/01/2017 at 10:33, STARS: 10
I think you’re on the right track but I’d rather see a tiered driver’s license program. Like, for small cars you need a Tier 1 license. For SUVs, vans, and large cars a Tier 2. For light duty trucks and cargo/work vans a Tier 3. etc, etc
And each tier is more involved than the last and requires better training. A CDL is really meant for large trucks with things like air brakes, so requiring it for a light truck is kind of overkill (not that it would be a bad thing though).
"Urambo Tauro" (urambotauro)
12/01/2017 at 10:34, STARS: 3
Here’s a hot take- all drivers should be required to get a CDL. I know this defeats the purpose of your suggestion, but anything’s better than our current crackerjack box licensing requirements.
"jimz" (jimz)
12/01/2017 at 10:36, STARS: 3
as pickups are, is simply going to have higher emissions
what? no. EPA emissions limits are specified on a grams/mile measurement. an F-150 compliant to Tier 3 Bin 125 emits no more trace pollutants per mile than a Focus certified to T3B125.
"fintail" (fintail)
12/01/2017 at 10:37, STARS: 2
Indeed, why not? If one needs an endorsement to ride a scooter that can exceed 30 mph (at least in my area), but nothing to drive a 42' motorhome or rented box truck or gigantic compensating lifted brotruck, something is broken. You get the laws you pay for.
"interstate366, now In The Industry" (interstate366)
12/01/2017 at 10:40, STARS: 0
I’m on board with this.
"RutRut" (RDR)
12/01/2017 at 10:50, STARS: 2
Seems like none of you have ever really been involved in the CDL process. My last job was advanced dev. for alternate fuel medium and heavy duty trucks. True medium duty, not this nonsense about a pickup is medium duty. CDL is a giant PITA; you are now required to keep driver logs, limited drive time, inspections any time you stop, random drug testing, tickets and points structure changes and there are a half dozen adders for different classifications. But, you can get a Chaffeurs license in Michigan with no driving test, a 25 question written test and be certified to drive anything up to 26k gross and less than 15 passengers. I’ve never understood the obsession people have with getting other people to stop driving the vehicles they think are bad; why should I have to justify my need to drive a truck? Do you have to justify your need to have a vehicle that will do over 85?
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
12/01/2017 at 10:50, STARS: 0
Depending on the state, and gcvwr for a truck and trailer, you may legally already be required to have one.
3/4 and 1 ton trucks pulling a big fifth wheel rv could be over the 26,000lb rating and require a higher license.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
12/01/2017 at 10:53, STARS: 0
I don’t think allowing the auto manufacturers to pick classification is a good idea. I do agree that we need to reclassify what is a truck.
Better licensing requirements across the board is a good idea.
"duurtlang" (duurtlang)
12/01/2017 at 10:53, STARS: 1
Why not lump them all together? Trucks don’t need to be less safe than cars. They’re going to be less efficient (which is acceptable for a work vehicle, not for a passenger vehicle) but I don’t think the required amount of work vehicles is going to change much in comparison to personal vehicles so you can demand group fuel emissions.
Make a weight cutoff to exclude the heavy vehicles (3.5 tons?), and require a tough-to-get license for those.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
12/01/2017 at 11:01, STARS: 2
Well, there’s a couple things I’ll say about that.
First, there’s CO2, which Tier 3 doesn’t regulate at all. (It’s directly related to fuel efficiency, though.)
Second, Tier 3 phase-in is slower for LDT2 (under 6000 lbs GVWR, at least 3450 lbs curb weight), LDT3 (6000-8500 lbs GVWR, under 5750 lbs adjusted loaded vehicle weight (average of curb weight and GVWR), LDT4 (6000-8500 lbs GVWR, over 5750 lbs adjusted loaded vehicle weight), and MDPV (under 10,000 lbs GVWR). So, while a T3B125 F-150 emits the same amount of criteria pollutants per mile as a T3B125 Focus, as it’s almost certainly in LDT4 (and there’s no way in hell it’s in LDT1), the F-150 doesn’t have to be as low of a tier as the Focus.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
12/01/2017 at 11:02, STARS: 1
I think that’s a good idea. Maybe not a full CDL, but some sort of extra endorsement on your license similar to what they have with motorcycles. Kind of funny I need extra training to drive a 300lb bike, but not a 6k lb truck.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
12/01/2017 at 11:06, STARS: 0
There’s already three tiers of CDL - class A (or class B with an air brake endorsement) is what you’re likely thinking of.
I’d make this class C, which is mainly for 16+ passenger operation or hazmat today. (Class B is 26,001+ truck, Class A is 26,001+ truck and 10,001+ trailer.)
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
12/01/2017 at 11:07, STARS: 0
I’d make this today’s Class C CDL, which is normally intended for 16 passenger or hazmat operation (you’d need passenger or hazmat enorsements on top of that to actually use it for that, though).
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
12/01/2017 at 11:10, STARS: 0
That’s also a valid approach - note that 8500 lbs GVWR, instead of 3500 kg GVWR, would be the likely cutoff, as that’s the line where the US government considers things medium/heavy duty instead of light duty.
"MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s" (mastermario)
12/01/2017 at 11:11, STARS: 0
TIL...I thought there was one CDL license and then there were special endorsements you could get for things like hazardous materials or oversized loads.
"MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s" (mastermario)
12/01/2017 at 11:14, STARS: 0
Pfffft...this is ‘Murica. I’ll go drive my 40ft RV with my regular old drivers license if I damn well please.
Seriously though, I thought there was no requirement for a CDL unless you are actually commercially driving. I’ve been under the impression that if it’s for private use you can basically drive anything no matter how large.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
12/01/2017 at 11:14, STARS: 0
Allowing them to pick classification under a CDL-for-any-truck regime would be fine.
Especially for more efficient trucks, it becomes a decision of... it can count towards your truck efficiency averages, but it requires a CDL (instead of the situation where the PT Cruiser was designed specifically to trip the truck flags to count towards truck efficiency averages, but marketed as a car), or it can count against your car efficiency averages, with no CDL required (right now, the Subaru Outback would require a CDL under this regime, because of it tripping the truck flags due to off-road capability, and that obviously needs to be fixed).
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
12/01/2017 at 11:16, STARS: 1
There’s definitely the endorsements, but the classes are based on weight, class C being the class for when you need a CDL to get the endorsements, but you don’t need any weight class.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
12/01/2017 at 11:16, STARS: 1
For RVs (or anything that you can convince the state that it’s an RV - converted schoolbuses end up this way), that’s usually true, and in some states for farm trucks that’s true.
Otherwise...
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
12/01/2017 at 11:25, STARS: 2
I guess I should clarify. CDL no but class A license yes. So a higher level of classification. Most people don’t know they exist, so it easier to just say CDL. This guys actually explains it pretty well.
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"duurtlang" (duurtlang)
12/01/2017 at 12:11, STARS: 0
Still though, I bet it would be easier to just get rid of that CAFE loophole that considers a Ford Explorer as a truck in stead of what it actually is (a car). I presume the US is one of only few countries with that weird loophole. How do other countries solve this?
The European Euro6 etc norms are simply valid for passenger cars and light commercial vehicles. There’s no differentiation between the two, they all have to adhere to the same standard. There is a separate bracket for heavy duty, but that’s honestly heavy and doesn’t include any SUVs.
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
12/01/2017 at 12:26, STARS: 0
Mind you, in the US, we did have actually heavy duty SUVs before, actually marketed to consumers - the Excursion was basically an F-250 with a permanent roof over the rear, the Hummer H2 was basically a Tahoe on steroids (although I think that was really what used to be called a “heavy half” - something on the upper end of light duty, juuuuust beefed up enough to squeak into heavy duty, so it was in the much looser heavy duty emissions standards, and didn’t have to report fuel economy).
"Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero" (sampsonite24)
12/01/2017 at 13:31, STARS: 0
I’ve never understood the obsession people have with getting other people to stop driving the vehicles they think are bad;
because people are assholes
"His Stigness" (HisStigness)
12/01/2017 at 18:34, STARS: 2
Another benefit of getting people out of work trucks that don’t use them for work: I won’t have to listen to them bitch and moan about the $700 registration because they chose to get something that gets taxed as a commercial vehicle because that’s what it was created for.
"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
12/13/2017 at 14:10, STARS: 0
Getting a CDL wouldn’t do anything other than jam up the DMV a little more. Not to mention that a huge chunk of the CDL license is about loads which would have no bearing on what most people consider light trucks. I mean, who needs to learn about air brakes to drive a Rav4? Automakers game the regs and game to the regs. This has happened this will happen. The path we were on was already tightening up the important safety and emissions gaps with light trucks and when that is all said and done, then its just a name and the manufactures have to play to the regs some other way. i.e. cafe regs are based on footprint, want a less penalized car? make it longer and wider. Boom, bigger footprint, less strict. same ol song and dance.