by "Murphie" (tomforhan)
Published 11/30/2017 at 11:42
by "Murphie" (tomforhan)
Published 11/30/2017 at 11:42
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Last week I took a three day MSF basic rider course, passed the written and road tests, and got my Maryland motorcycle endorsement on my license. I’d never ridden a motorcycle before (scooters in tourist destinations, yes).
It was fun, but it got me thinking...
I took the course at a H-D dealership because it was offering one of the last courses of the season. What I didn’t think to ask about was the training bikes: which turned out to be 500cc, 500+lb Harley Davidson Street 500s. As a newbie I just went for it and it turned out just fine. But most of the schools around here typically use smaller, lighter 250cc bikes.
I really liked the 500cc bike, at least for training. It felt great, solid and stable the few times we were able actually ride them, looping the perimeter of the range.
I’m wondering what experienced riders think about learning on smaller vs medium bikes. Are the smaller ones easier for the skill tests, or does the mass of the bigger bikes keep things more stable? Pro, cons, any thoughts would be appreciated!
Thanks
"nermal" (nermal)
11/30/2017 at 11:53, STARS: 2
It makes sense that an HD dealership would use HD motorcycles for their schools, and the 500 is the smallest one.
When I did the MSF, the school had 125cc Kawasaki cruisers - They sucked major balls, but worked for the purpose. I already knew how to ride a bike, so it was just a formality to get my license and insurance discount.
For new riders, it depends. Going from a 125cc cruiser to a literbike? Probably a bad idea. Going from a 500cc HD to one of the Sportster models? Not a big jump, and probably fine.
"jimz" (jimz)
11/30/2017 at 11:56, STARS: 1
I was told that the school bikes have special PCM calibrations so n00bs can’t accidentally grab too much throttle, they don’t open very far in 1st and 2nd gear, and the maximum rate of opening is slowed. The first time I took the class at a community college, they had 125s and 250s. the second time I took it at the Harley dealer. Then after I got my endorsement I bought a V-Star 250 for the first year. The Harley Street 500s were easier to do the clutch control/friction zone exercises in; the bigger engine with more rotating mass was harder to stall and easier to modulate. bit more finicky on a 250 with pistons the size of thimbles ;)
"jimz" (jimz)
11/30/2017 at 11:57, STARS: 1
they used to use the Buell Blast for the class, but, you know...
"LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com" (limitedtimeonly)
11/30/2017 at 11:58, STARS: 1
Having watched a smaller woman with no riding experience in my MSF course fall over while riding on the 250cc bikes we were using, I would think the smaller (lighter) bikes are better for students with wide ranges of experience, so that in a case like hers it is not catastrophic when everyone realizes that she is not ready to ride.
"Tekamul" (tekamulburner)
11/30/2017 at 11:59, STARS: 1
An MSF on a 500 pound bike seems nuts. There are a lot of people getting on a bike for the first time, and that is both too much power and too much weight for that.
When I took the class, it was 250cc Nighthawks (300 pounds) or 125cc Suzuki GS for shorter students. Those worked well, and minimized potential injuries from putting them down while learning (2 people went down in the class I took).
"bob and john" (bobandjohn)
11/30/2017 at 11:59, STARS: 2
3 parts to what makes a good bike to learn on. Stability, power and scareyness factor.
to make a STABLE bike, you need a long bike. NOT a heavy one.
as for scarey factor, that depends on the person. but having a heavy bike means that if/when they drop it on the lot, they cant pick it up, and they will be put off from that. and a heavier bike also falls easier. as soon as you tilt it, the heavier weight will want to bring it down that much faster
power is power. its a 500cc H-D, its doesnt make shit for power. I’m not worried about that
The company I work for uses CBR 300s, rebel 300s, and groms. seems to be a good mix for the students.
TLDR: its as good as a beginners bike that H-D will probably ever make. Its still shit.
(not to mention, when tested, the front brakes faded to nothing after 3 hard stops. not good)
"DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By" (ducst3-red-1liter-standing-by)
11/30/2017 at 12:01, STARS: 0
The hardest part I had learning was making slow u-turns, having to move the bike around when its not running, and picking up the bike when you drop it in a parking lot like a dope lol. All areas in which a light bike helps. Once you are moving, its the centrifugal force of the wheels keeping you stable, not the weight of the bike
I rented a new indian a couple years ago in vegas, and my 170 lbs frame still struggled to u-turn confidently on a 800+ lbs machine.
But, a big factor is where the bike carry’s the weight, low vs high. Cruisers usually carry their weight low, otherwise they would be impossible to maneuver. The other thing to consider is seat height, lower= easier at low speed.
Now, sure I can ride just about any weight bike, but much over 600 lbs it becomes troublesome. If you are just getting into it, I would be hesitant to go much above 400 lbs, at least if you are around my size, 5 foot 10 inches, 170 lbs.
And welcome to the club!
"450X_FTW" (mistermic)
11/30/2017 at 12:03, STARS: 1
Heavier mass is going to make it more difficult to stay upright at lower speeds, like stop and go traffic. Something simple, like a Honda 250 Rebel, is a GREAT learner bike. Power is low so you don’t have to worry about whiskey throttle, light weight compared to other cruisers, since they’re cheap new, they don’t have much room to depreciate.
If you’re brand new to riding a motorcycle, and want to learn without high risk of injury, I always tell people to buy a cheap 4 stroke dirt bike. You learn on the grass before you hit the pavement, if you fall over and dump the bike, it won’t hurt a thing. Riding off road gives you good learning skills too on how to react quickly (swerve to avoid a log on dirt is like avoiding a pothole on pavement)
"Hammerdown" (hammerdown32)
11/30/2017 at 12:09, STARS: 0
Personally, I took the course on a Yamaha XT250, because I was too tall to use the Kawasaki Eliminators (125cc) they had.
I think anything under 500cc’s and 500lbs is probably a fine trainer. Anything more and the tight maneuvers start to get a little difficult for the average rider. It’s not so much the horsepower or torque, but the weight.
For example, if I tried to take the test on my VTX1800 I guarantee I’d fail. I would say I’m average in terms of rider skill and ride that bike 8-10,000 miles a year. But, it’s a long bike that doesn’t have the best parking lot manners. It also weighs 850lbs.
To sum up, I’d still put the Street 500 in the small bike category. It’s marketed to new riders and was engineered as such. Honda’s Rebel 500 fits the same mold. I think they’re great options for new riders. Small and unintimidating enough to learn on, but not so small that the rider outgrows it after 6 months of riding.
"BobintheMtns" (bobinthemtns)
11/30/2017 at 12:10, STARS: 2
I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking...
But I think smaller, lighter bikes are easier for license tests (if that’s what you’re asking)...
But if you’re asking if one should start with a small bike while learning and then trade it in on something bigger as your skill grows- I disagree with that. I listened to that advice and my first bike was a nice, safe 250. I was bored with it within
a week
two days....
Get what you want. If it’s a 1000cc sport bike, do it.
The only difference between it and a 250 is what happens if you crack the throttle too fast. And if you’re not smart enough to modulate your throttle, then you probably shouldn’t have a car license, much less a moto one...
"Murphie" (tomforhan)
11/30/2017 at 12:14, STARS: 1
They did mention that they were governed, but that did not stop one student from accelerating like crazy for the quick stop test, doing a wheelie, then coming back down with the front brake on and of course the bars not square. He dropped the bike and thank goodness wasn’t hurt. But a good lesson for all of us how things can go to hell in a split second. This was during the skills test, so he failed of course.
"Murphie" (tomforhan)
11/30/2017 at 12:16, STARS: 0
Mostly I was wondering about the differences in training situations, and thanks.
I guess if I’d trained on 125cc, 750cc would seem like a huge step up while now it seems like within the comfort range.
"benjrblant" (benjblant)
11/30/2017 at 12:16, STARS: 0
Don’t forget that insurance for a liter bike is through the roof for a new rider. If one is ok paying that, go for it I suppose.
"GLiddy" (GLiddy)
11/30/2017 at 12:18, STARS: 2
Groms? That seems like it would be fun as hell. As a kid I road minis and never felt that comfortable on a bike that was heavier than me. Therefore, I never graduated to riding on the street except for jaunts up the road on the CT70. Even now, 40 years later, I’d love a Grom as it seems it would be as fun to toss around as on old Honda single.
"BobintheMtns" (bobinthemtns)
11/30/2017 at 12:24, STARS: 1
True. But everything is going to be more extensive on a bigger bike... You’ll spend more money on tires, chains/sprockets, gasoline... And the bike itself will cost more.... I was merely talking about the common conception of “your first bike HAS to be small and under-powered or you’re gonna DIE!!1!”
"benjrblant" (benjblant)
11/30/2017 at 12:27, STARS: 1
My MSF class was mostly 250's and a few 200's. I wound up purchasing a 650 single GS. If you’re concerned about your own comfort level, double check your insurance covers test rides and see about testing out a few used bikes you might consider. Start small, move up gradually and see where you’re happy.
"nermal" (nermal)
11/30/2017 at 12:39, STARS: 0
The most expensive part of insurance on a liter bike is the collision part. Liability is relatively cheap, as is comprehensive.
The key is to go through the manufacturer financing, which is on a credit card, not a loan, so you don’t need to get full coverage insurance. Then obviously don’t crash.
"bob and john" (bobandjohn)
11/30/2017 at 12:40, STARS: 0
it was still a H-D product.
and that basicly what the blast was built to do. what a POS bike it was.
I still miss mine sometimes
"Biggus Dickus (RevsBro)" (NKlein)
11/30/2017 at 12:43, STARS: 0
First, we need to know what kind of bike you want to ride. Cruiser? Supersport? Sport? Touring? Dual sport?
From there I can start giving recommendations.
"Murphie" (tomforhan)
11/30/2017 at 12:58, STARS: 0
First I was just trying to understand how my 500cc training experience compared to smaller bikes, but you are right it leads to the “what bike” question.
That said the “adventure” thing seems fun. I have a friend on the other side of the country that has had some great trips in her BMW G650GS, except when it left her stranded at the side of the road. Dirt roads, for sure. Upright position for my aging back. I like camping, fire roads, exploring. Not trying to rip things up. But I live in an urban area, so traffic, roads in and out of the city, etc are also a factor. Plus, regardless of the size bike I learned on, I’m a newbie rider.
(I have done several months in Indonesia, exploring small villages and smaller roads, mostly kinda paved but not always. This was on a scooter, but with 16" wheels, a 110cc Suzuki Hayate. But I love that kind of back country exploration.)
"fintail" (fintail)
11/30/2017 at 13:07, STARS: 1
I remember in my MSF class, they had some old 80s era (this was years ago) 125 “standard” bikes, a pile of 250 cruisers and a couple newer 250 standards, and a dual sport or two, but I want to say it was a 350 (?). I used it, but I forget - it was also kind of old, but the ergonomics were a lot easier for me than a wobbly squatting cruiser. It also seemed faster than the 250 cruisers. They also had some scooters maybe 125/150. No sportbike types.
For a taller not waifish person like myself, the height seemed to make me more stable. For engines, I think it would be hp more than displacement that makes the difference.
"jimz" (jimz)
11/30/2017 at 13:19, STARS: 0
never buy a Rebel 250 or V-Star 250 new.
Never.
there’s plenty of used ones out there. I bought my ‘09 V-Star 250 for like $1800.
these are “throwaway” starter bikes; if you buy new you’ll lose your shirt on a trade-in (good luck selling it yourself, plenty of cheap ones out there.)
"Spoon II" (Spoon_II)
11/30/2017 at 13:29, STARS: 1
I think a lot of schools use the smaller bikes because it opens them up to a larger audience, reduces liability, and are super cheap. For instance, I’m a pretty big dude, so I have no trouble shuffling around a large cruiser, but most of the people in my class were significantly smaller. If a heavy bike started to fall over on them, they might not be able to stop it, which in turn might lead to more injuries in the training program. The training course I attended was full of 250cc bikes and below (I actually used a TW200 for the whole thing, which is an awesome little dual sport thing! Totally recommend trying one out!). Edit: Also, I didn’t find the small bikes to be unstable or anything, and they were incredibly easy to maneuver. Pretty ideal for a first time experience.
"Biggus Dickus (RevsBro)" (NKlein)
11/30/2017 at 14:00, STARS: 2
Kawasaki KLR 650.
"450X_FTW" (mistermic)
11/30/2017 at 15:01, STARS: 0
I meant the Rebel if you want a training bike for the road, otherwise, dirt bike. Cheap, can dump it, great for training, and can sell for what you bought it for if it’s older.
"jimz" (jimz)
11/30/2017 at 15:33, STARS: 0
I think I misunderstood what you said when you said they were “cheap new.”
"The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock" (jukesjukesjukes)
11/30/2017 at 17:44, STARS: 1
Suzuki drz400sm. It’s old, but has an massive aftermarket if you want upgrade to more power with it being 400cc. It’s also light & nimble.
"Biggus Dickus (RevsBro)" (NKlein)
11/30/2017 at 18:01, STARS: 0
DRZs are cool but forever ruined after you ride an actual Supermoto. Huge difference in power/weight ratio.