by "Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
Published 11/21/2017 at 17:45
by "Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
Published 11/21/2017 at 17:45
Tags: part of the job
STARS: 4
I just filed my review for a manuscript submitted to a scientific journal, and I recommended that it be rejected. Someone put a bunch effort, time, and money into doing these experiments, and I pissed all over it. I rarely recommend outright rejection, but it really was a poor paper. I mean, I gave a detailed list of what was wrong and what needed to be changed. Still, it gave me no joy.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
11/21/2017 at 17:48, STARS: 2
I relished that in college. We had a class were we spent half of the semester tearing apart master thesis papers. I enjoyed that more than anything.
You wouldn’t think basic math would be hard.
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
11/21/2017 at 17:54, STARS: 3
I’ve done it too. Part of me feels bad about rejecting somebody else’s work but the other part of me does not want to be a part of fostering shoddy science.
"WilliamsSW" (williamssw)
11/21/2017 at 17:55, STARS: 3
No, but it’s certainly better than having bad info go out in a journal and be taken seriously.
Hopefully the authors can take the constructive criticism and fix it - - plus those journals get multiple reviews, right? So they’ll probably get similar feedback from other sources, too—
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
11/21/2017 at 17:56, STARS: 1
I just submitted two papers for a technicial conference, I hated every minute I spent writing them. I could whip up a 30 slide PowerPoint with ease, and it would be much better at conveying the message.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 17:58, STARS: 0
Well yeah, that’s different, and you should enjoy it. If someone dogged their term paper, then it needed to be shredded. You learned critical thinking, and they learned the consequences of not using it, all in an educational environment.
What’s sad is when someone doesn’t learn those things in their training and now their livelihoods depend on it, and they can’t deliver. Sad but has to be done.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:01, STARS: 2
And that’s the thing. You have to do it. You do nobody any favors by coddling them.
"crowmolly" (crowmolly)
11/21/2017 at 18:02, STARS: 1
It’s got to stand up to the beating. Good work should.
Poor execution and poor documentation don’t help.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:03, STARS: 1
All true. Unfortunately, and for the first time I can ever remember, I recommended outright rejection instead of resubmission. It just had no redeeming value when others before them had done a better job.
"cream wobbly" (creamwobbly)
11/21/2017 at 18:03, STARS: 1
If Powerpoint would be better at presenting it, maybe Powerpoint should’ve written the papers.
Seriously, I hope you don’t follow the typical PP paradigm of bullet lists, where the man reads from the list: “
bullet, item one blah blah blah”
.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:04, STARS: 3
I absolutely hate writing. I am functionally acceptable at it, but it’s no fun for me. Doing the experiments that got there is much more interesting. Still, publish or perish.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:05, STARS: 3
That it is so much more common at conferences than it should be.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
11/21/2017 at 18:06, STARS: 0
Oh no, I don’t read each bullet point, I use photos and broad statements interspersed with a few snarky comments. Video too if possible.
"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher)
11/21/2017 at 18:07, STARS: 1
Unfortunately, not everyone is good at their job.
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
11/21/2017 at 18:07, STARS: 3
I feel your pain. I go to civil engineering conferences and just start to cringe when the presenter starts reading their PowerPoint verbatim.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:08, STARS: 1
Another thing is that they forgot the figure legends. Editor should have caught that before sending it for review, but I cut them a tiny bit of slack, because they have a pretty high work load, and it’s not their day job.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:08, STARS: 1
Alas, this is so.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:10, STARS: 1
I’ve seen engineering presentations where someone makes 90 slides for a 60 minute time slot. Everyone should know to plan at least two minutes for every data slide.
"cream wobbly" (creamwobbly)
11/21/2017 at 18:10, STARS: 1
Oh good. Especially the snark.
“... but I didn’t like his tone. He wasn’t taking the subject matter seriously.”
“He took the subject matter seriously. It was a certain segment of his audience that he didn’t.”
"DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By" (ducst3-red-1liter-standing-by)
11/21/2017 at 18:10, STARS: 2
The only thing I hate more is getting our reviews back on grants. With funding so bad right now, one reviewer in a bad mood ruins any chance of funding. We finally got one through after 3 years of sending them in
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:14, STARS: 0
This.
Reviewers go over those things so quickly, that if you don’t grab them on the specific aims page, you’re halfway to sunk already. And if they don’t like your hypothesis, kiss that priority score goodbye. Sometimes they say wrong stuff that tells you they didn’t understand what they were reading. And woe to you if they’re actively trying to assassinate you. My mom stopped going to study sections because the was sick of watching people try to torpedo their competitors.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:15, STARS: 0
Also, glad you got your funding! That’s huge.
"NotUnlessRoundIsFunny" (notunlessroundisfunny)
11/21/2017 at 18:17, STARS: 1
And, plan on fewer slides to begin with!
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
11/21/2017 at 18:20, STARS: 1
“Now I will derive the equation for you.” (Leaves room to sit on toilet and read oppo.)
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:21, STARS: 0
Precisely. And practice your damn talk ahead of time, please.
"SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media" (silentbutnotreallydeadly)
11/21/2017 at 18:23, STARS: 2
What’s the point of doing good experiments and hours of tedious lab work if you can’t properly organise, interpret and articulate your findings?
Some people just need to be told that they aren’t very good at what they do and that the work they produce is not up to scratch. If they aren’t sufficiently self aware to accept competent and meaningful criticism that is intent on helping them improve then more fool them.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:23, STARS: 2
Oh, this reminds me of my first day of class in calculus for engineers (though I’m not an engineer) in college. The teacher was math department faculty. He spent the entire hour proving why the square root of two is irrational.
He was nearly lynched by 200 students.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 18:26, STARS: 1
Well that’s the problem with the scientific field. There is not enough formal training on how to write. And if you can’t write and communicate, it’s all pointless. So, whether or not you like it, you need to learn how to do it.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/21/2017 at 18:29, STARS: 1
"SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media" (silentbutnotreallydeadly)
11/21/2017 at 18:40, STARS: 1
As an environmental bureaucrat, the number of boffins I’ve had to deal with in the past 20 or so years who couldn’t communicate with the real world is amazing.
I get the publish or perish concept but to spend all that time and money on something that will have all the consequence of the average look-at-me blog on the Internet because the authors couldn’t communicate or relate their work to either meaningful and applicable actions in the Real World or to an ever expanding repository of specific knowledge is...disheartening
"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland)
11/21/2017 at 18:44, STARS: 1
Elitist asshole.
"Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo" (thetomselleck)
11/21/2017 at 19:15, STARS: 2
If it’s any consolation, writing will within our lifetimes be thought of as a true lost art.
"for Michigan" (formichigan)
11/21/2017 at 19:20, STARS: 1
Critiquing good work can be enjoyable. Having to explain to someone that their work is shit and why their work is shit is not.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 19:25, STARS: 0
I can imagine
In truth, even the tiniest bit of data derseves to be published if it’s good useful data that is properly communicated.
"Shamoononon drives like a farmer" (shamoononon)
11/21/2017 at 19:26, STARS: 0
Gawd, what an a-hole.
"OPPOsaurus WRX" (opposaurus)
11/21/2017 at 19:27, STARS: 0
There was a girl in grad school who would cry every time the professors told her that.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 19:27, STARS: 0
More like clueless academic. Then again, he may have been a bit of an asshole IIRC. :)
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 19:29, STARS: 0
That does not console me in the least.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 19:30, STARS: 0
Yup.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 19:33, STARS: 0
??
"SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media" (silentbutnotreallydeadly)
11/21/2017 at 19:38, STARS: 0
Shouting, Powerpoint, dash cams and memes are not a suitable or acceptable fall back position.
Therefore I am not consoled...
"Shamoononon drives like a farmer" (shamoononon)
11/21/2017 at 19:49, STARS: 1
I JOKE!! I know you got a job to do.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/21/2017 at 19:55, STARS: 0
Oh, me. Now I get it.
TBH, I am a bit of an asshole. :)
"FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com" (alphaass)
11/21/2017 at 22:25, STARS: 1
I’ve never had to outright reject one, only ask for some pretty extensive revisions. Was it just the paper that was bad or were there more experiments that needed to be done to complete the work? About the only time I see outright rejections is if the work was performed wrong or if the paper just doesn’t fit the journal. Speaking of which I just remembered I have a manuscript that I wrote under review right now
"FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com" (alphaass)
11/21/2017 at 22:29, STARS: 1
I blame the graduate schools. My adviser spent a lot of time making sure his students learned how to write scientific papers and we all got shredded on drafts until we started to figure it out. For most students, their first exposure to scientific writing is in graduate school. Nearly all of my colleagues who write great reports and papers thank their advisers for it. The ones who still struggle years on and need the rest of us to review them before they go to clients or journals are the ones who only were asked to focus all their time on collecting data in grad school. I saw plenty of other professors and students on that path when I was in school. Just my opinion, but I think the deans need to be pushing their professors to work on technical/scientific writing with their grad students a bit more.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/22/2017 at 00:31, STARS: 1
The main problem was that the data were inconclusive. They showed no regulation of the genes examined, and not in agreement with better designed studies that had been published before. So, the authors knew no more about the biology of the system than they had when they began, and their experimental design was unlikely to be able to produce useful data with a few revisions. That said, they could still submit a dramatically revised article in the future. That’s why I gave detailed comments. It’s just that I could not accept it in anything like its present form.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/22/2017 at 00:37, STARS: 1
I agree. It’s hard and takes a lot of effort to teach someone to write, but that’s not an excuse for not doing it. It’s part of being a mentor. Our university has an entire program that gives seminars on grant writing. I myself have thought about creating a course on scientific writing for our College.
One of the big challenges is that many of our students are not native English speakers. God bless them, I sure as heck couldn’t move to China and expect to write anything coherent on my work in their language. But fair or not, they will be judged by what they write in English journals, and that’s what we need to prepare them for.
"NotUnlessRoundIsFunny" (notunlessroundisfunny)
11/22/2017 at 01:32, STARS: 1
True story: was just at a conference where they were presenting about papers already accepted. One presenter, English as a second language, had practiced like crazy. Clear, engaging presentation. Others, no rehearsal, not so much.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/22/2017 at 10:14, STARS: 1
It makes a difference.