by "LJ909" (lj909)
Published 11/13/2017 at 11:40
by "LJ909" (lj909)
Published 11/13/2017 at 11:40
No Tags
STARS: 10
Back when I sold cars last decade, I worked at a Pontiac,Buick,GMC,Chevy dealer. This was around 08-09 so right before the bailout (my dealer was one of the ones shuttered in the bk). But I did have the opportunity to witness the return of the Camaro and the introduction of the Corvette ZR-1, which was king of the GM performance hill at the time. We initially got 3 Camaro’s: an Orange SS with black stripes and 2 LT’s. The Orange one (of course) along with the ZR-1 were the showroom centerpieces. And both were marked up as hell.
The Orange SS went for nearly 80 grand and sold quickly. The Mayor of the city ended up being the buyer for it. We thought it was insane that we were asking Corvette prices for a Camaro. But someone bit and the waiting list for the things were long. The ZR-1? MSRP for them was just over $103 grand. The managers ended up putting the sticker on it for nearly 125k. And it never sold. It literally sat there up until we closed our doors the following year. We had a few people come in that were interested and tried to get us to budge from the markup, but we never did. I often wondered where the car ended up.
I mentioned those 2 examples to highlight a problem that gets glossed over from time to time: consumers don’t always bear the full burden of blame for some of our favorite or beloved performance models, or any other models for that matter, getting the ax. I think models fail at the dealer level for 4 main reasons:
Markups : The main culprit. We’ve seen it time and again: a new model comes out. Dealers start their bullshit shoveling and do or say things to justify those markups that vary wildly depending on the car but are still wrong nonetheless. And with some saying that we are living in an automotive performance golden age, we’ve seen this song and dance all too often the last few years. The introduction of the Hellcat/Demon models, the Type R, FoRS etc have all seen markups of $20,$30,$40 grand over MSRP. That alone can turn a customer off. From my experience, even those with the means done necessarily want to be taken for a ride even if they can afford to be. They want a fair price just as much as the rest of us do. But dealers don’t care to see this. Some automakers, like Dodge, have done things to curtail markups, but to little or no affect. The downside of all of this is that as long as there are people who will pay just because they can, dealers have no reason not to continue driving up the prices of these cars because they are special.
Shitty customer service : This is a given at most dealerships of course. But it gets worse and compounded when customers actually attempt to, you know, buy the car. And it gets even more worse when you get into special models or performance models. Customers of these models expect top dollar treatment because they are spending top dollar. but they often don’t get it. Things from models being literally roped off, dealers wanting deposits before test drives, not even being able to drive or touch the vehicle and other crazy outlandish things have been reported from all over the country with different makes. Prejudging takes its own ugly part in this as well. Some young and unknowingly rich to the dealer 20 or 30 something year old isn’t going to be taken seriously when he’s coming in for that Hellcat and he will probably be given the run around in regards to a test drive. It’s worse when you’re a minority. But you know what that person is going to do? He’s either going to take his money elsewhere to get that Hellcat or buy something else from an entirely different brand. Effectively putting one nail in the coffin for the model.
Outright lies and just plain wrong product information : The automakers themselves have their own part in this by sending out product training individuals or product training material to dealers. The results of this is getting just outright bullshit information from already arrogant annoying sales people. “Yea Ford developed the turbo V8 specifically for the GT350”. “You’d better jump on this now. Honda said they were only building 3,000 Type R’s ever”. Just lies to get a sale.
All this combines in sales either not meeting expectations or eventually falling flat. Then we find ourselves reading about the model dying off after the model year because of tanking sales. So while it may be true the saying that makes its rounds here on Jalopnik and other auto sites that we auto enthusiasts ask for models from automakers and then don’t speak with our wallets when the time comes, the blame cant fall entirely on the consumer. So think about that the next time you see those 6 Focus RS’ on the lot at the local Ford dealer you’ve passed every day for the past year.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
11/13/2017 at 11:50, STARS: 3
I can relate to this. I did a few posts about the nonsense I went through ordering a Camaro SS 1LE.
At least I didn’t have to deal with added dealer markup, but I did get the “Oh, who the hell are you wanting to buy a-close-to $50K car?” (Surprised the hell out of the dealer finance manager when he saw my numbers. He flat out asked me why I wasn’t buying a Corvette or ZL1, because I could afford it at age 30 [Hint: I would have wanted the Grand Sport, and that was too expensive, and the SS 1LE is better balanced on track as opposed to a standard ZL1. No comment on how much I love the madness of the ZL1 1LE.]) and the “No, we can’t let you test drive it.”
I found one dealer that basically turned me loose in a 2SS Camaro with manual and magneride. Close enough for government work, in my mind. I ended up ordering the car from them.
"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94)
11/13/2017 at 11:53, STARS: 1
Makes you wonder... if a dealer added a reasonable markup or none at all, in the long run would they make more money than the dealer with the crazy markup? The extra markup means nothing if people refuse to buy it.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 11:53, STARS: 1
I remember reading that. I didnt understand why you didnt just either walk and consider something else. But if its something you really want you hold out through the bullshit so I can get that. The amount of prejudging these dealers do though is ridiculous when most of them, even with commission, probably cant afford the very car they are sizing you up over.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 11:57, STARS: 1
I had this very talk with the owner of the Buick store I was at when the Lacrosse got redesigned for 09. We were getting customers that Buick hadn’t really got before looking at the Lacrosse. People that were cross shopping Acura TL’s and Lexus ES’ were coming in looking at this thing. Because of this they thought it would be a good idea to add an adm. I’ll never forget, he approached me, which I thought was odd, and asked what I thought about the markups (which were like $-4-5k over sticker). I told him straight out that we should take them off. I made a point similar to what you said, and that the Japanese and Germans dont have to go to these levels on mass market cars to move metal. An hour later the sales managers were taking the markups off the cars. They were furious at me for it but I didnt care. It was right.
"Dark chocolate" (amghybridss)
11/13/2017 at 11:57, STARS: 1
Yup
I had the (closest to me) dealer mark up a Passat Manual TDi by 2k. The sticker price was 26 and they wanted 28. lol. It was the only Passat TDi with 6 speed in 150 miles of Houston.
I managed to find one in Dallas. and negotiated a price of 23.5k on another white 6 speed manual. And that price included shipping the car to their sister dealership in Houston. So paid $23.5k plus taxes, instead of $28k plus taxes.
Then after I drove the thing 75k miles in 2.5 years, VW bought it from me for 23k. lol.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 11:58, STARS: 0
Dumbasses. Im sure they only marked it up because they had a lot of interest on it and it was the only one in 150 miles. They are aware of these factors and know exactly what they are doing.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
11/13/2017 at 11:59, STARS: 1
I did walk out of two dealerships over that. The one I ordered from (which wasn’t either of those two) didn’t give me the whole “Well, this is a really expensive car, and you couldn’t afford it” shtick. They were a hell of a lot more chill about things.
The two I walked out of were one mega-dealer and one small dealer that had their heads up their collective ass about the whole thing.
"Straightsix9904" (Straightsix9904)
11/13/2017 at 12:01, STARS: 0
Markup on a Passat? I mean, c’mon, in 2 weeks there will be hundreds of thousands of them.
Your story sounds similar to mine though. I purchased my Sportwagen used for $24k and I completed the paperwork this Morning to sell it 2.5 years later and 65k additional miles for 29k.
"Nothing" (nothingatalluseful)
11/13/2017 at 12:01, STARS: 1
Ahh, MVA. So stupid. I remember when I test drove a base Audi TT when they first came out. It had a $5k “Market Value Adjustment” added to it, I laughed. Same thing with a base C5 Vette, another $5k on that one. When I see that added to cars on a lot, I just know it’s not a lot I’d consider every purchasing a vehicle from.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 12:03, STARS: 0
Good. It amazes me the bullshit they put you through when you’re the one that’s there trying to give them your business. I dont get how they think they can give someone the 3rd degree when instead of trying to earn your business.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
11/13/2017 at 12:03, STARS: 2
Dealer markups should be illegal. I sold cars around that era as well. We had a GT500 with a 15K markup. It sold. Although Hawaii is a weird market so it probably isn’t a good example. Even a base Focus has a mark up of 1,000 to 2,500 depending on the dealer on the island.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 12:05, STARS: 0
Yea its always bullshit titles for them. Ive seen “Finishing Touch” of $20 grand on a Grand Cherokee SRT8, or some places try and be slicker with grouping it in shit you dont need. When the ‘16 Civic came out, a dealer near me had $900 bogus ass security packs on every single Civic on the lot. It was basically a thinly veiled markup.
"Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street." (demon-xanth)
11/13/2017 at 12:05, STARS: 3
But the dealers are PROTECTING consumers! That’s what they’ve been telling state legislatures for decades!
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 12:08, STARS: 0
Its probably a “convenience fee” since its Hawaii and there’s “so much involved in getting these cars from the mainland”. It sucks that the cars do sell though. And its always some old ass man that has an “in” with the sales manager and has bought cars from them for his whole family for years. They roll out the red carpet for those people. And for some reason they have no problem paying over sticker.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
11/13/2017 at 12:13, STARS: 1
It is. It was explained away as shipping costs. There is some validity to it but its more along the lines of everyone does it and you can’t go anywhere else to really buy a car.
"lone_liberal" (token-liberal)
11/13/2017 at 12:20, STARS: 1
Sometimes the behavior of dealers just makes me shake my head. It’s like they don’t want to actually sell cars. The local “auto show” is just local dealers bringing in various models for people to look at. It’s a good place to get a feel for what you like and what you don’t. The local Chevy place always brings a ‘Vette but locks it up so people can’t even sit in it, while the Porsche dealer lets people climb in to much more expensive cars. That has always confused me.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
11/13/2017 at 12:23, STARS: 1
However, do recall that their goal is to sell you a car TODAY , from things that are already on the lot.
If you are dealing with enthusiast cars, there a good chance they may not even have one on the lot. As soon as you start talking with a dealer about ordering a car, most of the sleazeballs will tune the fuck out, because they can’t sell it TODAY .
So it all ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy.
"Tapas" (tapas)
11/13/2017 at 12:24, STARS: 3
So basically, it is the dealerships and their vastly common and inherent greediness, profiling and shady practices that are a big factor in killing enthusiast models?
I buy that.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
11/13/2017 at 12:24, STARS: 2
I’m a 35 year old bald white guy and drive a BMW. I can test drive (almost) whatever I want, especially if I show up on a weekday after work and am dressed like the good little corporate peon that I am. Actually it still works on weekends if I’m in jeans and a t-shirt.
#Privilege
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 12:46, STARS: 1
You get way better treatment from the upscale dealers. Its sad that its easier to get a test drive in a 911 than a Corvette.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 12:48, STARS: 0
Exactly. Dealers will actually go out of their way to keep you from ordering a factory car because they want you to buy now.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 12:49, STARS: 0
Not a big big factor, but a factor that a lot of us and others overlook or consider.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 12:51, STARS: 0
Its sad that that’s a fact. Meanwhile, me being a millennial aged Black male, will get the run around if I tried to go test drive, say a Scat Pack Challenger, with the main assumptions being I have either bad credit, no money, or both.
"Dark chocolate" (amghybridss)
11/13/2017 at 13:06, STARS: 0
Yeah, I wanted a white 6 sped manual TDI Passat. There was only one in like houston and hundred miles around. And the dealer proudly showed that “data” to me. See, only 1 in 200 miles.
lol.
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
11/13/2017 at 13:06, STARS: 2
This is why dealers need to die. Just an expensive, unnecessary middle man. Do like Tesla does. Set up a store with a test model of each car, and let the customer order their car. Having a dealership order cars to sit in their inventory makes no sense. Especially when the dealership is aloud to name their price.
"AfromanGTO" (afromangto)
11/13/2017 at 13:09, STARS: 4
I remember when my wife and I were looking to get rid of her 3 series. We went by Jeep and Chevy. She wanted a red SRT8 Grand Cherokee with a sunroof and hitch. The Jeep, Dodge, Chrysler dealer had Hellcats marked up 25K above sticker, and had a 1st Generation SRT Cherokee on the lot. She wanted to order one, and they told her well maybe, but probably not. We went to a Chevy dealer next, and she asked about buying a C7. They told her no, and nobody in their dealer network has a red stingray or a vette. The sleezeballs acted like huge jackasses, the GM tried to apologize to us, but she was pissed so we left.
I am in favor of removing dealers, and buying directly from the corporation.
I agree with you about how performance vehicle owners are treated at a dealer. We spent double the amount of some ecocrap, yet we are treated the same as them when we get our vehicle serviced. I noticed a lot of Mustang, GTO, SS, and SRT owners buying AMGs and Ms next, and saying how much better they are treated as customers.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 13:14, STARS: 1
The more time goes on and the more problems crop up the more dealers look pointless. Ive been saying dealers are an unnecessary middleman for awhile now. A headache for customers for no other reason than money.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 13:21, STARS: 2
American Dealers really shoot themselves in the foot when dealing with performance model buyers. Cars like any of the V8 performance models are treated way more special than they are sales wise but then get treated no better than the lower models when things come like service. I find it really appalling almost that a ZO6 buyer will be treated just like a Cruze buyer when that car needs service.
"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
11/13/2017 at 13:22, STARS: 1
I also once successfully test drive a brand new Boxster S when I was like 25-ish and showed up in a Miata. And at the time I definitely had bad credit, no money, and no ability to afford any brand new car whatsoever, let alone a Porsche.
Even now sometimes I’ll get turned down for a test drive on certain cars but basically only when the dealer is pulling that “you can drive it if you buy it” crap. That game is stupid. They’re obviously betting that because a car is targeted at people who like driving, but built in limited numbers, that scarcity will convince enough people to buy it without driving it, or negotiating. Which can work to an extent. The problem is since these cars are sold by dealers who are usually still selling plenty of regular cars, there’s no urgency on their part to do anything other than sit on the limited-numbers models. They figure eventually someone will come along and yield a higher margin.
(BTW, on a more serious note, I’m Jewish, and I’m very much on the side of black and brown folks. Because even though I haven’t had the same discriminatory experiences in my daily life, my ancestors certainly have, and when the white supremacist types break out the torches and pitchforks, they hate me just as much.)
"Tapas" (tapas)
11/13/2017 at 13:24, STARS: 0
I don’t know man...if you make me pay more and treat me like shit while representing something I like, maybe I don’t like it as much anymore.
Manufacturers need to enforce how they want their products to be sold.
"Monkey B" (monkeyb)
11/13/2017 at 13:35, STARS: 1
problem is that people will overpay for that new must have thing, like phones, video game systems etc. At list price they sell out to people with no intentions of keeping it, but to make money. If people refused to buy this stuff from them there’d be none of it. Concert tickets are another prime example. With no markup the Focus RS would be one of those things that would be sold out from dealers with those buyers reselling at higher than MSRP.
The Focus RS already has the issue of being something that appeals largely to a demographic not in the position to buy one. Those with the means are generally looking for something that doesn’t look like what it is, an economy car, as they generally want purpose built sports cars. So a markup on the RS is begging for it to sit.
"HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles" (hondasfordsvolvo)
11/13/2017 at 13:36, STARS: 1
The only thing dealerships do that is somewhat necessary is perform warranty and recall work.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 13:39, STARS: 0
That’s what I hate. Dealers either think because of scarcity or a scarcity of their own creation that they can get some buyer to cave on a car with a 35k markup. Sad part is that a lot of them do instead of speaking out and buying elsewhere. And that’s why this will continue unfortunately.
Thanks for saying that about black and brown people. I wish more people would think like this: Because even though I haven’t had the same discriminatory experiences in my daily life, my ancestors certainly have, and when the white supremacist types break out the torches and pitchforks, they hate me just as much
"bhtooefr" (bhtooefr)
11/13/2017 at 13:39, STARS: 1
And manufacturer-owned and operated service centers could do that, as with Tesla.
"AfromanGTO" (afromangto)
11/13/2017 at 13:40, STARS: 2
Exactly. How is a M3 driver buying a Vette or Viper going to fell taking their car in for service in the morning, and they have to wait for the cruze/dart to get fixed first, then their car, and that big lifted truck is after you. Then they go to the waiting room from a 90s stock photo with “coffee” and a vending machine. Compared to a BMW dealer. There was a Lexus dealer where I used to live that had a putting green for service customers to use. My wife loved going to BMW for free breakfast and starbucks. Those dealers treat their customers correctly, and don’t have their heads shoved up their ass like most american brand dealers.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 13:42, STARS: 0
Manufacturers need to enforce how they want their products to be sold.
Exactly. How there is a business model where someone can lease out your name and sale your products on your behalf and have the price you say they should be sold for be the “suggested” price all the while you sit and have a hands off approach is beyond me.
"Steve in Manhattan" (blogenfreude01)
11/13/2017 at 14:07, STARS: 1
Who pays that? It’s a straight loss as soon as the car leaves the lot.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 14:10, STARS: 0
You’d be surprised.
"merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc" (merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc)
11/13/2017 at 14:18, STARS: 2
I’m an Audi convert because of that. I don’t enjoy taking our Pacifica in for service, but it’s a pleasure to drive into the Audi dealer, but of course I try to stay away if at all possible due to the costs.
"merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc" (merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc)
11/13/2017 at 14:26, STARS: 1
At least nowadays with information country-wide at your fingertips, buyers can at least know if there are alternatives available for sale and where they are. Hell, the last vehicle we purchased, the dealer drove it to my house, 1-1/2 hours away, and let my wife and I keep it for the weekend. Then when we decided on a different optioned vehicle, they brought that one up the next week and swapped us out, I signed paperwork in my kitchen and the deal was done. Best purchase experience ever, and they weren’t the closest with the vehicle we wanted, but they got my business for sure.
"OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars" (jakeauern)
11/13/2017 at 14:52, STARS: 1
I’ve been denied at 2 separate Subaru dealerships to test drive a WRX. I let them have it. That is a $30,000 car loaded and you’re protecting it more then the Aston/Rolls/Mas dealer??
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
11/13/2017 at 15:25, STARS: 0
I had someone try that with a BRZ a few years ago. Needless to say, I still have not and probably will not ever own a Subaru.
EDIT: Oh, and I was wearing a sport coat and slacks, and drove up in a late-model BMW.
"Tapas" (tapas)
11/13/2017 at 15:26, STARS: 1
Yes! It is ridiculous!
And you can’t legally sell your cars any other way? What the fuck?!
Out of all the times the “slippery slope” rhetoric is used to scare people into being horrible (LGBT rights, treatment of undocumented people, etc) - I honestly hope that for once, all of the dealer lobby’s slippery slope scenarios and worst fears actually DO materialize when Tesla manages to sell without dealers.
"OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars" (jakeauern)
11/13/2017 at 15:35, STARS: 0
Subaru dealers seem to be on something. Either they’re rude and have all the cars or are amazing but have none. I still want a Subaru because it matches my wants and needs perfectly but good lord these guys are on something.
"Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo" (akioohtori)
11/13/2017 at 15:55, STARS: 1
Also partially responsible for the death of the manual transmission. That was a criteria for my last new car and I ended up having to drive over 450 miles to get the one I wanted. Worth it, but no Volvo dealer in my state had a manual C30 in stock. Closest was 240 miles away in Kansas City.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 17:13, STARS: 1
I can attest to this. Do any search of any car that comes with a manual and they are few and far in between because dealers wont stock them. I just did a search of 3 Series’ manuals within 100 miles of me. There were only 7 compared to 1082 automatics.
"Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo" (akioohtori)
11/13/2017 at 17:44, STARS: 2
That makes me sad. Seems like a common response is “I didn’t even know they made [insert car here] in manual!”
"Steve in Manhattan" (blogenfreude01)
11/13/2017 at 18:27, STARS: 0
Meaning you agree? I think, unless it’s something like a Porsche 911R or a McLaren P1, something very limited, you’re going to take a bath.
"LJ909" (lj909)
11/13/2017 at 18:44, STARS: 0
Ive seen it happen. Like the Mayor who paid nearly 65 grand for that Camaro SS. Financially it doesnt make sense. But they dont care sadly.
"Steve in Manhattan" (blogenfreude01)
11/13/2017 at 19:48, STARS: 1
Who are you trying to impress? People at Cars & Coffee would probably just make fun of you ....
"Spasoje" (Spasoje)
11/14/2017 at 15:53, STARS: 0
That’s what we get when idiots have money.
"Spasoje" (Spasoje)
11/14/2017 at 16:00, STARS: 0
I wouldn’t be so quick to praise Tesla showrooms... My experience with them was identical to traditional dealerships: they had the wrong model waiting for me after I booked a test drive the first time, so I had to book again. The next time I booked, the manager cancelled my booking “since I drove them twice already” (conveniently ignoring that there were two drives because of their mistake).
"Steve in Manhattan" (blogenfreude01)
11/14/2017 at 18:25, STARS: 1
Raising the question - would I trade my IQ for a pile of cash? Ohhh, shit.