by "Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
Published 11/08/2017 at 14:29
by "Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
Published 11/08/2017 at 14:29
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STARS: 4
This is a really good piece that talks about how and why folks support Donald Trump [anyway]. These are Hillary’s “Deplorables.” These are the religious folks that Elizabeth Warren mocks. These are people who thought Barack Obama would care about them. In short, these are people that Democrats have been shafting and ignoring for the past 8 years. As one brilliant Oppo told me, “They were going to get screwed either way, so why not roll the dice on Trump?”
There’s a whole lot of hurt out there that the Democrats are totally out of touch with.
P.S. My father’s people all hail from Somerset County, Pennsylvania and I have relatives who mine coal there.
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"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
11/08/2017 at 14:38, STARS: 1
I’ve a few chat with my parents about them supporting Trump. Even they admit he is a loose cannon but thought that was worth the risk to get something fresh/new in the Hhite House.
"Manwich - now Keto-Friendly" (manwich)
11/08/2017 at 14:41, STARS: 9
“They were going to get screwed either way, so why not roll the dice on Trump?”
Except that they didn’t consider that they could get screwed worse...
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/7/15674380/obamacare-kentucky-trump-ahca
“There’s a whole lot of hurt out there that the Democrats are totally out of touch with.”
Out of touch compared to who? The Republicans? Oh sure... the Republicans are “in touch” with them enough to tell them lies they want to believe is truth.
In reality, that’s not an improvement over being ignored.
"Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap" (ddadragon)
11/08/2017 at 14:41, STARS: 1
I think part of the problem is that I don’t feel like the democrats have a very clear message and people like those in the article are turning away from them with democrats focusing some on other issues like marriage equality. This isn’t a bad thing but I can completely see where they’re coming from.
"fintail" (fintail)
11/08/2017 at 14:42, STARS: 8
They thought Obama would care? Any evidence of this? They had a strange way of showing it, with the birtherism and “Muslin” [sic] insanity, etc. I don’t buy it. They are definitely disenfranchised, but they had no legit belief Obama would help them, not could he, nor could anyone. I have some boomer Trumpies in my line too, and they all bitched and moaned about Obama from the day he was elected. They will admit that 45 needs to shut up more often anyway. I also have a Vietnam vet uncle (marines, combat) who has seen more shit than 99.9999% of Team Orange, and who sees right through it. He also has no problem with kneeling football players. Maybe there’s hope yet.
Some people just like to or need to cling to a populist ideologue, especially one who can align himself with their hobbies like guns and bibles, and all too often, a distinct lack of self-awareness. Trump has capitalized on it.
I have serious doubts that there is any possibility the Dems can court this demographic outside of simple bribery.
"f86sabre" (f86sabre)
11/08/2017 at 14:43, STARS: 14
It’s this type of thinking that scares me.
Schilling said. “He shouldn’t have to take any shit from anybody.”
I think there is a good part of the population that would be perfectly good with a dictator, or a lifetime president, provided their charished “freedoms” were protected. These people exist on both sides.
Presidents and other elected officials should be ready to take shit from anyone. That is what representative government is about.
"My citroen won't start" (lucasboechat)
11/08/2017 at 14:43, STARS: 2
“They were going to get screwed either way”
Of course they were, these people have been living the same way since the 1940s. They’ve had 3 generations to figure out that maybe coal ain’t so hot anymore for a couple of reasons, or that manufacturing jobs on textile or steel plants were on their way out.
But I can’t blame them entirely, the US doesn’t really provide many chances in the way of education or job specialization to those with a low income.
"Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)" (bman76-4)
11/08/2017 at 14:43, STARS: 6
So... you vote for a person who has been using Chinese steel in his projects in order to drive up his own profits. He’s really looking out for you....
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 14:51, STARS: 5
Who’s out of touch more is irrelevant. That the Democrats are out of touch brought us Donald Trump. That’s the relevant part.
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
11/08/2017 at 14:52, STARS: 9
But those people sure gave Obama a lot of shit. The sewer runs both ways.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 14:52, STARS: 0
And that’s what I am also trying to say. I can see where they’re coming from and Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth do not seem to. The liberal dogma does not give any space for these folks to unpack.
"Aaron M - MasoFiST" (amarks563)
11/08/2017 at 14:53, STARS: 5
I ultimately empathize with the political strategist who doesn’t think it’s worth their time to try and bleed votes out of a stone that thinks coal jobs can in any way come back.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 14:53, STARS: 0
Hard to say. But it is well to understand people who don’t see things the same way.
"Manwich - now Keto-Friendly" (manwich)
11/08/2017 at 14:55, STARS: 0
But what I’m getting at is the “getting screwed/lied to worse” might be the learning experience they need to vote for the Dems again.
"Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap" (ddadragon)
11/08/2017 at 14:57, STARS: 1
I think they see the democratic party as trying to give rights to the biggest ‘victim’ which is not them in this case and I think they’re perfectly justified in thinking that. I don’t see either party helping them really, but at least the republican party acts like they’re going to help and gives them a voice, even if they won’t act on it.
"Milky" (jordanmielke)
11/08/2017 at 14:58, STARS: 9
“... Trump’s probably the most diligent, hardest-working president we’ve ever had in our lifetimes. It’s not like he sleeps in till noon and goes golfing every weekend, like the last president did.”
I stopped him, informing him that, yes, Barack Obama liked to golf, but Trump in fact does golf a lot, too— more , in fact.
Del Signore was surprised to hear this.
“Does he?” he said.
“Yes,” I said.
He did not linger on this topic, smiling and changing the subject with a quip. “If I was married to his wife,” Del Signore said, “I don’t think I’d go anywhere .”
"PotbellyJoe and 42 others" (potbellyjoe)
11/08/2017 at 14:59, STARS: 9
This piece gives them way too much credit.
There is no amount of reasoning that elects Trump. I speak for my cousins and family who voted for the guy.
1. Clinton was a swear word in my house in Michigan since 1994. So Hillary had that against her from the start, in a swing state. This is not because of a reasoned argument, this was a cultural lashing out by a spurned collective mass of voters.
2. The religious angle is wrong. Not in how it’s viewed by “outsiders” i.e. Democrats or this author, but how the media has termed them as religious, or worse Evangelicals (big “E”) because there is a persecution fetish among many big “E” Evagelicals. How do I know? I am a small “e” evangelical. I go to church with small “e” evangelicals, but also with more than a few big “E” evangelicals. There is a massive chasm of difference between how the two view American culture and the purpose of the American experiment. So when articles come out ripping into evangelical Christians for supporting the guy, the little “e” ones get upset because they’re being associated with the hijacked political movement, and the big “E” ones get emboldened because they’ve angered the media. It’s not about Trump, it’s about making the media angry, I mean it. Trump is simply the byproduct. If the media says they’re wrong, they believe they are doing something right. Which brings me to my next point...
3. Noise. They love it when the city-folk get uppity. City-folk = media lovers = “brainwashed libtards,” in their minds. So if the other side is angry, well, they feed on the tears.
That’s it. There’s no reasoning in this group, so rational arguments won’t help.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:02, STARS: 0
I think you’ve nailed it. And I think Hillary Clinton saw herself as that person. I saw the Hillary Clinton fail from afar off and I called it.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:03, STARS: 4
Did you read the story and conclude that the folks the reporter spoke with gave their choice that kind of deep thought?
"jimz" (jimz)
11/08/2017 at 15:05, STARS: 7
lots of people would be ok with authoritarianism, so long as the people in charge look and talk like them.
"jimz" (jimz)
11/08/2017 at 15:07, STARS: 8
“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”
- Lyndon B. Johnson
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
11/08/2017 at 15:11, STARS: 0
the “hillary clinton fail”, you mean her failure to get elected? Just wondering exactly what you feel it is you “called”.
"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction)
11/08/2017 at 15:12, STARS: 2
Well, after reading that, some of them do seem downright deplorable...
"Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell." (oppisitelock)
11/08/2017 at 15:14, STARS: 2
Working for an honest living is hard, but I’m not going to skip out and wank in a tree all day just because it’s different. Voting for that pigheaded motherfucker because politicians suck doesn’t help anything.
"Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection" (itsalwayssteve)
11/08/2017 at 15:16, STARS: 1
I grew up in this town. That piece didn’t surprise me one bit. My wife and I went back to visit for a day this spring. I drove past my old houses and showed her the town. When I realized that the park where I used to hang out as a kid was a “no dogs allowed,” park, and we’d have had to keep our pups in the car as we walked, we took off back to my cousin’s place in Franklin County, near Harrisburg.
I wrote this in January of this year for the “Who Am I?” reflection piece in a theology class:
Johnstown is a city of dichotomy. Heading north on route 403 from Davidsville, PA, you’ll travel through woodland hills. During the summer the oak and maple trees leave the hills a sea of green. In fall, they’re ablaze with the red, orange, and yellow of the changing leaves. But as you enter the city, it seems to once again turn to winter. Ravaged by floods, poor management, and – since the ’77 flood – exodus of industry, the city of Johnstown is bleak and gray even in June. A person can stand on the Ferndale Avenue bridge and see woods to one side, and vacant steel mills to the other. Looking down, the Stony Creek river is dead. No fish swim in it. No waterfowl roost on its banks. Rocks along its shores are stained orange and green from mine and mill discharge dating back to the beginning of the industrial revolution. This is where I grew up, but I don’t consider it home.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
11/08/2017 at 15:17, STARS: 7
“As one brilliant Oppo told me, “They were going to get screwed either way, so why not roll the dice on Trump?””
I do not consider this brilliance, I fail to see how Hillary would actually screw us/them more than Trump currently is. I’ve been watching this shitshow they call government over the past year. I’m thoroughly unconvinced that it’s better or the same than Hillary would’ve done.
I am so COMPLETELY and THOROUGHLY frustrated that every policy they seem to be trying to force down our throats is tantamount to and I can’t believe I’m typing the fucking words: trickle down economics.
Furthermore, convincing us that tax reform will encourage job growth? Fuck that. This government is elitist to the extreme and it pisses me off so much that anyone finds it acceptable.
"diplodicus" (diplodicus)
11/08/2017 at 15:17, STARS: 1
That got way more racist than I was expecting at the end.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
11/08/2017 at 15:19, STARS: 0
He should be completely and totally willing to take shit from everyone, he’s feeding it to them! He complains about the media? He’s the one feeding them the sound-bytes and twitter-bites.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/08/2017 at 15:20, STARS: 0
Reading this, I see why some of these people continue to support Trump no matter what results he gets. They see government as indifferent or even hostile to them, and Trump convinced them he is on their side and wants to fight for their cause. Clinton, and even Obama, were seen as one of them , whereas Trump is on their side railing against them . They don’t really expect him to deliver, but they like him because they think that he is at least trying. This is a huge psychological difference, and a powerful force for Trump’s continued success.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
11/08/2017 at 15:27, STARS: 3
Honestly there is no DIRECTLY helping the area specifically. They are in an area that’s economically speaking dead. I’m familiar with areas like that, they are destitute, poverty-ridden, crime-ridden, it’s a harsh reality. But I choose my words carefully. The area may be largely a loss, but the people aren’t. They need incentive/motivation/help to move the hell out of areas that from a bygone era.
What would I like to see? I would love to see state or federal government a provide assistance for people that apply to some program that ensures they move to an area with training/education and/or jobs that they can start. It’s only an idea in my head, I’m sure it needs tweaking/changing, but it’s the start of an idea that I think we need.
I say this based on a report I heard on the radio quite some time ago that said that back in the earlier to mid 1900's people moved to where there are jobs. We don’t do that anymore, back then something like 60% of people made significant moves within the USA. These days that number I believe is somewhere under 20%, we are staying put. It’s creating areas that are seeing a vicious circle of poverty.
I’m not saying those people are to blame, but something I’m sure can be pointed to, to explain that change in attitude, or willingness or maybe just lack of resources that were once more readily available. We’ve changed as a nation and we’ve left enormous pockets of poverty in our wake.
"Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)" (bman76-4)
11/08/2017 at 15:29, STARS: 6
They did not, which is why we’re where we are.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
11/08/2017 at 15:30, STARS: 3
During the last presidential election I wish the democrats had done many things differently, but one of the biggest failures I think was their lack of addressing taxes. That’s where everyone automatically assumes that they’ll be better off with a Republican, especially a “business person” like Trump.
But in reality, with the tax credits Hillary was proposing many many families with kids would’ve been better off with her. Her tax brackets may have had higher percentages in them, but her credits would’ve more than offset that versus trump. It should’ve been ramrodded down the throat of everyone that would listen.
Because at the end of the day I have a depressing theory that many many people I know vote with their wallets full-stop. They may argue about this and that. But their wallets is where they can measure a presidential candidate with dollars and cents and percentages.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:31, STARS: 0
I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with that premise.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:32, STARS: 2
Never happen as long as the Dems deride them and mock them.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:34, STARS: 0
Yes. I once read a quote from a Shi’ite in Iraq who was mad at the Sunnis: “We have blood in our mouths and we spit it in the face of the world.” Trump is doing the spitting for this group of people.
"Monkey B" (monkeyb)
11/08/2017 at 15:35, STARS: 2
these are people that Democrats have been shafting and ignoring for the past 8 years.
in my experience, you have to know something is there to ignore it. The GOP doesn’t know these people exist. Using them for votes doesn’t count. Lying and pandering to them every 4 years doesn’t count either.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:41, STARS: 0
That’s a great comment. My experience is similar to yours, but the letter E wouldn’t be the right letter for my church experience.
When HRC was the heir apparent, I’d be with my liberal extended family and I’d say, “Hillary is an unacceptable candidate,” and they would cry, “But
Donald Trump!
” And I did not see Bernie Sanders as a viable candidate at the time. Bernie might not have gotten elected, but it wouldn’t have been because he was unelectable. I like to say that the election was Hillary’s to lose, and lose it she did.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:42, STARS: 0
That she was unelectable.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
11/08/2017 at 15:43, STARS: 0
This is a funny statement but also a sad reality.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:43, STARS: 0
Is that a judgment? Personally, I would
hate
to be one of those people but if I were, I probably wouldn’t know any better.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:44, STARS: 0
Why don’t you tell us how you
really
feel instead of typing vague vulgarities?
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
11/08/2017 at 15:47, STARS: 0
I wouldn’t go as far as unelectable. I would LOVE to see an alternate reality in which the popular vote is the only thing that matters, we know she won it in our current system. And she might’ve in a straight-popular-vote system.
But I think someone else, maybe Bernie, would’ve been more electable within the current system.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:49, STARS: 1
Thank you for sharing that. My dad’s family live in Somerset, proper and one of my cousins shudders and curls his upper lip involuntarily at the mention of Barack Obama while commentators today decry the “hysterical” hatred of Donald Trump. I do not pity the Johnstown residents, but I do sympathize with them. And politicians mocking them and deriding them does not help.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:50, STARS: 1
I think you are coming from a more carefully considered place than the folks who were interviewed for the story.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:51, STARS: 2
The racism against BHO is shocking.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
11/08/2017 at 15:52, STARS: 1
Politico reporter out in search of confirmation of the narrative that they wish to push. Yeah, I predicted that before clicking on the link.
Since Trump also carried educated white voters in the election, does the possibility that they are just sick of everything and willing to throw a monkey wrench into a running machine just to break it not carry any possibility?
Full Disclosure: I voted for Gary Johnson.
"Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell." (oppisitelock)
11/08/2017 at 15:55, STARS: 8
I feel that a blatant protest vote is tremendously stupid when the result is a dangerous idiot running a powerful country for a full term.
"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction)
11/08/2017 at 15:56, STARS: 5
Yeah, I’m judging people who use the word “nigger”, who say Obama is the antichrist, who are okay with the comments Trump made to Billy Bush, whose only opinion on immigrants is “keep ‘em out”, etc.
Hopefully this represents a very, very small percentage of the local population...
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:56, STARS: 1
They see government as indifferent or even hostile to them,
Bingo. And even though I am ostensibly a Democrat, I also subscribe to a rigorous Christian religion and when Elizabeth Warren mocks prayer, I want to grab her by her lapels and shake her because she’s too much of an elitist to see the pain that she inflicts and foments.
I do not see these folks viewing Trump so much as
on their side
, as they see him being able to do the yelling that they cannot do.
"diplodicus" (diplodicus)
11/08/2017 at 15:56, STARS: 2
The only BHO acronym I know is butane hash oil. But I feel like that’s not correct in this context.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:57, STARS: 0
I read your remark too literally.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 15:59, STARS: 0
I think that is a good point. But I am ostensibly a Democrat and if I am not mistaken, at one time, folks in these regions would have, many of them, voted Democrat. Not today. But this could be less of a shift in ideology and more of a general slide toward elitism on the part of politicians.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 16:00, STARS: 3
My thought and my comment are even narrower than what you’ve just said in that I was really only thinking about the circumstances that existed running up to the 2016 election. Hillary was just too, too toxic. And elitist. And dishonest. And arrogant.
"MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s" (mastermario)
11/08/2017 at 16:01, STARS: 2
Barack Hussein Obama
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 16:03, STARS: 0
Full disclosure: I post stuff from WSJ as well. That is where I am from, where my people are, and narrative or not, it describes my people pretty well, some of them. One view, one story, one piece of the puzzle.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 16:04, STARS: 1
I feel the same and I sit next to some of them in church and work with some as well. Morally, I can’t get there. I am trying to be around all of these disparate people and still be in a constructive place.
"MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s" (mastermario)
11/08/2017 at 16:07, STARS: 0
It’s in no way acceptable to be okay with all that...but for many of them that’s probably all they’ve known their whole life. They probably have met few if any people of color and form most of their opinions based on the news and tv, which never seems to show humanity’s best does it. I’m not excusing their behavior, but to change it you have to understand where they are coming from and not simply point a finger at them while shouting “Shame on you!”
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
11/08/2017 at 16:09, STARS: 0
Sure that’s fair. I wish someone would campaign with a realistic plan for the large swaths of American that we’ve left behind. It would have to be a plan that encourages large amounts of people to relocate and/or re-educate/re-train for different jobs.
"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
11/08/2017 at 16:09, STARS: 0
In regards to posts from the WSJ: my opener would have been “Business flunky from WSJ attempts to push narrative that was requested by the board of directors. Film at 11.”
There’s a whole bunch of places that are not the Rust Belt that voted for the Orange one for drastically different reasons. They may be just as $X+“-ist” as the PA interviewees, but there’s a lot more to this than just them.
As I said: Could this not be a bunch of other voters really just flat out pissed off at the whole concept of Big Government™ and ready to just gunk up the works just for the lulz? (i.e. it’s their way of trolling the richest counties in the USA, most of which are within commuting distance of Washington, DC)
"Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection" (itsalwayssteve)
11/08/2017 at 16:11, STARS: 0
I lived in Somerset in 1992-94, right up the road from the Georgian Place outlets and the Ford dealer. It was not a bad place to live - and I made a lot of friends there despite my rejection in Johnstown. That’s another story for another day.
I knew a bunch of Baumgardners, Knopsniders, Howards, Walkers, and a few others...
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
11/08/2017 at 16:11, STARS: 3
But somehow we ended up with someone that embodies the very definition of the last 3 descriptors you put out there. I guess toxicity is the one that in-part makes the difference?
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 16:16, STARS: 1
Same. I read about coal miners in Pennsylvania who were refusing retraining into other professions because coal would be coming back. Not sure there’s much #inclusive that we can do with them.
"B/Xmrrmvr" (davidedumass)
11/08/2017 at 16:19, STARS: 1
9 out of 10 Republicans make up his “base”.
"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer)
11/08/2017 at 16:20, STARS: 2
“They were going to get screwed either way, so why not roll the dice on Trump?”
What? So if you don’t stand to win you allow yourself to be irresponsible? That is way lower than what I thought any person could even go. Not that I’m liberal or conservative, but, come on, anything other than that crap. the health of a nation is not a joke or an escapist tool to treat one’s lack of hope!
"marshknute" (marshknute)
11/08/2017 at 16:23, STARS: 6
People voted for Trump because they didn’t have the first clue what Hillary’s platform was and wouldn’t trust her even if they did.
Trump literally branded his “policies” in tidy 3 words packages:
Build a wall. Drain the swamp. Lock her up. Bring back coal. Repeal/replace Obamacare. Everybody knew he was talking out of his ass, but they could tell he was speaking his honest mind, not some carefully worded political speech.
It’s not just Hillary, though. Democrats on the whole have a critical branding issue.
Seriously, what is the official democratic position on gun control? Some want to close gun show loopholes. Some want stricter background checks. Some are fine with current background checks, but want longer wait times. Some want to ban only certain types of guns. And some just want to ban guns outright.
I suspect the Democrats would get a massive overnight following if they straight up declared they wanted to repeal the 2nd Amendment. Same for abortion, gay rights, immigration, etc. Come up with a hardline approach and stop wasting voters time with wishy-washy political platforms.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 16:25, STARS: 0
You are punching above my weight here. I think I see where you are coming from and I am inclined to not take issue with any of it. I recognize the biases in the couple of sources that we’ve mentioned here. And I entirely foreswear cable news of all brands. I like to consider information from a variety of sources — including comments from oppos like you — in order to inform my views.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/08/2017 at 16:29, STARS: 0
I hear ya. I lived in a fine arts residential dorm in college I got the “opiate of the masses” speech many times for being a practicing catholic
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 16:34, STARS: 0
I would say that the current POTUS does not embody those descriptors, but that he far surpasses them, but comparisons of narratives are a waste of time.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 16:35, STARS: 2
And when he sinks, watch them swim away from the ship and claim they never knew him.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
11/08/2017 at 16:37, STARS: 1
Yeah, it’s literally exactly what they need. It would help if certain people would stop promising the return of coal though.
But if someone that’s OUT OF WORK is being offered retraining, they should probably take it while they wait for coal to come back, haha.
"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen)
11/08/2017 at 16:42, STARS: 0
Yeah that’s even truer, he IS those descriptors.
So if comparisons of narratives are a waste of time, what isn’t a waste of time? What would you like to see moving forward, particularly come re-election season.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 16:44, STARS: 0
You don’t need to tell
me
that. The story I originally posted does not paint any of the peoples’ positions as being particularly well considered.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 16:47, STARS: 0
Good point(s). I couldn’t personally get behind a Second Amendment repeal, but I see where you’re going.
"nermal" (nermal)
11/08/2017 at 16:48, STARS: 0
There’s definitely some bias and baiting in the article and the interviews.
I’ve said it before, but Trump used the same exact tactics that Obama used to get elected, just with a different section of the voting population. For every (probably white) Trump voter in Pennsyltuckey that feels they were ignored and slighted under Obama, you’ll find a (probably black) Obama voter in an inner city that feels that they were ignored and slighted under Bush. In both cases, they were given hope that things would improve after an extended period of getting worse.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 16:53, STARS: 2
I have taken to calling myself a Liberal who doesn’t think he’s too smart for God.
"ZHP Sparky, the 5th" (e30s2k)
11/08/2017 at 16:57, STARS: 2
That’s what struck me the hardest on this whole conversation. I can understand losing faith in a system and getting to a point where it seems that no matter who wins it will be the same old shit for YOU. But the very real threats the current administration is very happily following through on – and harped on as actual policy positions…it is sickening to see how selfish, and unabashedly proud of their decision these people are to this day.
Being a politics/economics nut and a person who cares for
the plight of other humans – I want to understand these people better, and for their situations to improve. But
being a brown immigrant with many gay, muslim, POC, and female friends and
family members – people who are so careless with their voting (something I am yet unable to have the honor and duty to handle with care) are repulsive to me.
It is absolutely a failing of our society that had led to these people being stuck in these dead-end situations, but taking that anger out on innocent bystanders is something I will never, ever empathize with.
"ZHP Sparky, the 5th" (e30s2k)
11/08/2017 at 16:58, STARS: 1
Curious on how pleased they are with how things are going thus far?
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 17:01, STARS: 0
Ya’ think? In every situation, there will be some folks who will eschew reason.
"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction)
11/08/2017 at 17:03, STARS: 3
None of get to chose where we’re born, or who our parents are, but each of us, at some point, has to become our own person with our own values and viewpoints. That requires educating oneself, giving a critical eye to things we may have once been told were true, and casting off anything we were taught that was wrong.
“I’m a racist because my daddy was a racist and that’s all I know” is no excuse.
"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer)
11/08/2017 at 17:05, STARS: 0
I think that what the media has failed to show is the difference between understanding these hopeless people and justifying them. Normally they just seem to justify them, rather than understanding them and why they are toxic to any society.
"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner)
11/08/2017 at 17:07, STARS: 0
They aren’t exactly pleased with his “filter” or lack there of but since he hasn’t successfully passed any meaningful regulation, they are taking the wait and see.
Congress, more or less, has just kept the gov’t running without actually doing much. So from their point of view, he hasn’t been successful or screwed up.
"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction)
11/08/2017 at 17:08, STARS: 1
As do I, sad to say, and it’s our responsibility to speak up and educate people, to help them know what is truth and what are lies, and to encourage them to cast off bigotry and hatred.
"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction)
11/08/2017 at 17:10, STARS: 0
A response I almost appended to you about “knowing better”, but wrote responding to Mario instead:
“None of get to chose where we’re born, or who our parents are, but each of us, at some point, has to become our own person with our own values and viewpoints. That requires educating oneself, giving a critical eye to things we may have once been told were true, and casting off anything we were taught that was wrong.
“I’m a racist because my daddy was a racist and that’s all I know” is no excuse.”
"Manwich - now Keto-Friendly" (manwich)
11/08/2017 at 17:14, STARS: 0
And yet...
It will be interesting to see how the mid term elections play out next year.
"Elumerere" (elumerere)
11/08/2017 at 17:22, STARS: 0
Interesting. I still think Hillary lost because America cannot deal with the concept of a woman in charge.
I’m 100% serious.
"Elumerere" (elumerere)
11/08/2017 at 17:24, STARS: 1
Yeah, misogyny won this election.
"Milky" (jordanmielke)
11/08/2017 at 18:07, STARS: 2
Its like interviewee wanted to double down on being shitty.
"ZHP Sparky, the 5th" (e30s2k)
11/08/2017 at 18:15, STARS: 1
I’m curious to see how long people hold on like that. Not picking on your folks at all – I myself know parents of a friend of mine who voted Trump in a similar fashion, them being brown immigrants who weren’t born in this country, and who have LGBTQ family members. My friend was livid when he learnt his parents had voted Trump and it had quite a toll on their relationship.
But I think (for lack of a better phrase in my mind) people
like my friend’s parents at least voted Trump out of a place of complacency
(perhaps even privilege). He may not have accomplished much thus far but has
taken some pretty harsh steps through executive action. And his DOJ has changed
direction as well. To my friend’s parents – they got here legally and
comfortably and their family is well established, so no skin off their back if
it becomes harder for others like them to migrate here in the future. The DOJ
taking the position that sexual orientation isn’t a protected class in
employment disputes – again, doesn’t affect them directly and the likelihood of
it affecting their educated and well-employed gay nephew probably is pretty
low, so they roll with it. DACA termination doesn’t affect them, neither does
the ongoing Obamacare debacle (being wealthy and fortunate enough having good
employer-sponsored healthcare – so even if those folks getting screwed under
Obamacare aren’t any better off…well it’s not them, so doesn’t matter). Environmental
impacts from changes to the EPA are decades away, so it will never be something
that is clearly associated with their vote – neither will slashes to social
security programs down the road if/when Trump’s corporate tax cuts put the
country further in to deficit and republicans start caring about such things
again.
Trump certainly has the advantage of not having done much at
all that really impacts the run of the mill, comfortably well off middle class…so people in that
demographic who voted for him keep giving him the benefit of the doubt, even if
they hate his hysterical antics and twitter tirades. Time will tell if Trump is
able to maintain that support – a lot of it will probably depend on how the
economy does the next few years, and how his tax plan directly affects those
people. Perhaps if I were at a different stage in my life I’d have similar
levels of indifference – but given the gay, muslim, immigrant, and various
other minority groups I’ve had friends from over my life, being a pretty recent
immigrant who spent the last 15 years going through the stress of navigating
the green card process in this country, and most recently being on my way to be
a dad for the first time in a few months – even if this administration has
mostly been a legislative no-show, all those executive actions, departmental
agendas, and outright vitriol towards “others” just keeps stressing me out
thinking about the future. So while this administration may not have impacted
my wallet in either direction at this point, I’m definitely losing lots of
sleep over the societal impacts its having.
p.s. - that turned out to be way longer than I anticipated. Thanks for the therapy session! As a former 1st gen s2000 owner, I highly approve of your screen name.
"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
11/08/2017 at 18:37, STARS: 1
That works.
"My bird IS the word" (mybirdistheword)
11/08/2017 at 18:41, STARS: 1
Total possibility. Best campaign promise ever. He got my vote.
Also I got all hot and bothered over the 2nd amendment.
I will admit he is an insufferable racist douche. Lesser of two evils says I.
"My bird IS the word" (mybirdistheword)
11/08/2017 at 19:00, STARS: 0
Nobody ever complained that voters were too smart. I just blame the people who put him through the primary.
"MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s" (mastermario)
11/08/2017 at 19:17, STARS: 0
Like I said it doesn’t excuse the behavior. But people tend to dig their heels in when they are accused of something whether they are wrong or not.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 20:38, STARS: 0
I had to think on your comment for a minute. I am suspicious of the trope on both sides of the so-called bias of the media on the other. What’s different here, from the general to-and-fro regarding media or, in the case of your remark, is that I am not faulting Trump for manipulating his base, but I am faulting my own side for so egregiously ignoring people who would have at one time been likely Democratic voters.
What you call bias and baiting might well be just a reporter’s perspective and why wouldn’t he or she have one? Judges do and they’re supposed to get a job done in an unbiased way but we know that’s not how it goes. For the limited amount of time that I can devote to the task, I try to take in information from a variety of sources — including your comments — and thus inform my opinion.
With regard to so-called media bias, I am tending these days to come to a sort of business conclusion. It seems to me that it must be the case that the Liberals have a better business model. I’ve seen a total of about twelve minutes of Rachel Madow trying to be a liberal version of a right wing talking head and I can’t stand it. In fact, I eschew all cable news of every flavor.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 20:42, STARS: 0
Or when they have no idea why or how or anything else. Which is no criticism or judgment on my part, but it sure does make it difficult to have a constructive conversation. If a person is faced with someone whose heels are dug in, then the person probably didn’t do enough listening at the onset of the conversation.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 20:43, STARS: 1
Yes, to both comments. Aside from the theme of this thread but apropos, I think, is the idea that boys need to stand up for girls in order to nip sexism in the bud at a younger age. It’s about taking responsibility, which is in no way any sort of assessment of guilt.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 20:47, STARS: 0
Yes. It. Will.
The big question — I’ve only read the headline, but I’ve read several such today — is how much of that will turn out to have been wishful thinking on the part of a liberal media.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 20:52, STARS: 1
Sure. I’m sure that’s a layer of the onion.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/08/2017 at 20:56, STARS: 0
My inlaws are pretty liberal.
Way
liberal. (I am too, but I’m not a too-smart-for-God liberal...) I said HRC would be a disaster and they all cried, “But
Donald Trump!
” The thing is, none of us saw Bernie as a viable alternative and many here have said that Zoidberg’s dog could have beaten Donald Trump.
"nermal" (nermal)
11/08/2017 at 21:39, STARS: 0
My point regarding the baiting and bias was that it comes across as if the journalist was looking for something along the lines of their “NFL” definition, and probably had to work very hard to mask their excitement upon hearing it. Basically, the journalist had the idea that Trump voters are dumb and racist, and they went out looking for confirmation, which they eventually found.
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
11/08/2017 at 23:45, STARS: 0
take a seat, this is going to be a long one.
background: i lived my whole life in the rust belt on the edge of blu/orange. the town and neighboring city has had abandoned factories since the 70s and newer ones that 1/50 the workforce. The area has slowly recovered, mostly due to suburban sprawl from one of the orange areas. with family from a wide spectrum of the socio economic ladder.
i moved back to the area a few years and dispite building everywhere it seems like not much has changed.
i’ve had 2 uncles go into early retirement, mostly due to inability (also lack of will) to keep up with technology. and in this eclectic mix of folks i know a substantial set jsut cant understand why things can’t just go back.to some 1950s utopia. there is a weird dicotomy that i can’t put into words of those that want the government to solve the problem and get out of the way. I’ve run into this a few times of “this should be illegal, the governemtn should force them to ___” “but that wouldn’t that mean the governmetn would have to get involved?”” oh no it can’t be the govnernment, they’ll screw it up”
I think in terms of economic impact in many in rural areas this
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regarding Trump Clinton, when people say they love Trumps honesty. trump said what people wanted to hear.
P.s. moms side is from outside Allentown.
"Manwich - now Keto-Friendly" (manwich)
11/08/2017 at 23:49, STARS: 0
The media isn’t uniformly liberal... such as Fox and Brietbart...
And the impression I got, in at least one case, it was the Republican side being overconfident and out of touch.