by "Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
Published 11/04/2017 at 18:42
by "Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
Published 11/04/2017 at 18:42
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By Jay Winik
Nov. 3, 2017 5:47 p.m. ET
Robert E. Lee is back in the news thanks to White House Chief of Staff John Kelly. In a Fox News interview Monday, Mr. Kelly called Gen. Lee “an honorable man” and observed that “men and women of good faith on both sides made their stand where their conscience had made them stand.”
Mr. Kelly has a point. It is worth remembering that Lee, who has lately been painted as a traitorous caricature, embodied in countless ways the poignancy and tragedy of the Civil War. It would be a gross misfortune if the political debate obscures his story.
Lee’s lineage was impeccable. His father was Henry “Light-Horse Harry” Lee III, the celebrated Revolutionary War general and close friend of George Washington. Lee himself descended from two signers of the Declaration of Independence, and his wife, who later became an ardent Confederate, was none other than Mary Custis, a great-granddaughter of Martha Washington and, through adoption, of George Washington himself.
Lee agonized over whether to fight for the Confederacy. As war loomed, Abraham Lincoln offered him command of the new Union Army, a position he had always coveted. Despite being an avowed Federalist who longed for compromise to save the Union, Lee, like so many others, gave in to the permanency of birth and blood. “I cannot raise my hand against my birthplace, my home, my children,” he wrote a friend, “save in defense of my native state.” Instead he became the commanding general of the Confederate armies, while predicting that the country would pass “through a terrible ordeal.” He was right.
Still, he was never much of a hater. Like Lincoln, more often than not Lee called the other side “those people,” rather than “the enemy.” Nor was it clear that he loved war itself. “It is well that war is so terrible,” he once said, “or we should grow too fond of it.” With words that could have been uttered by Lincoln, Lee talked of the cruelty of war, how it filled “our hearts with hatred instead of love for our neighbors.”
Nor was he fond of slavery, once describing it as “a moral and political evil.” True, he did benefit from slavery. But in 1863, one day after the Emancipation Proclamation took effect, Lee went a step further than Thomas Jefferson ever did and freed his family slaves, fulfilling the wishes of his father-in-law, George Washington Parke Custis. And in 1865, as the Confederacy stood on the throes of destruction, Lee supported a dramatic measure to put slaves in uniform and train them to fight, which would have effectively emancipated them.
Upon the conflict’s close, Lee gave a forceful interview to the New York Herald in which he strongly condemned Lincoln’s assassination and claimed that the “best men of the South” had long wanted to see slavery’s end. Later he declared, “I am rejoiced that slavery is abolished.”
Arguably his most powerful statement about race relations came at war’s end in St. Paul’s Church, the congregation of the Richmond elite. To the horror of many of the congregants, a well-dressed black man advanced to take communion, and knelt down at the altar rail. The minister froze, unsure what to do. Lee knelt down next to the black man to partake of the communion with him.
Finally, Lee’s greatest legacy was not in war, but in peace. Lee went to great pains to heal the bitterness that cleaved the country after Appomattox. When Lee surrendered to Ulysses S. Grant, in arguably one of the most moving scenes in American history, the military situation remained quite perilous. The war was still raging. Jefferson Davis, the Confederate president, was on the run, calling on Southerners to take to the hills and wage guerrilla warfare. This at a time when there were still three Confederate armies, and hatreds between North and South were at their peak. Lincoln was assassinated five days later. Had the South undertaken guerrilla warfare, it’s more than likely the U.S. would have broken up into two countries.
At Appomattox, Lincoln and Grant gave generous terms to the South, paving the way to reconciliation. But they found a willing partner in Lee. Neither a citizen of the Union he once loved nor of the Confederacy that ceased to exist, Lee publicly rejected the idea of a guerrilla struggle.
Most important, by April 1865 he no longer spoke of the Confederacy as “we” or “our country.” Now he spoke as a U.S. citizen, thereby forging the path to a reunited country. For this reason when there were cries to try Lee for treason, Grant vigorously opposed them.
What would Lee have thought of recent events? He might have supported the moving of his own statues. In 1869 he was invited to participate in a ceremonial meeting of officers at Gettysburg, Pa., to commemorate the battle there six years earlier. He declined, writing: “I think it wiser . . . not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”
The debate will surely continue over whether to move the Confederate monuments out of public view, as it will over whether to rechristen spaces bearing the names of Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Woodrow Wilson and even Washington. Where will it end? Robert E. Lee’s story should serve as a reminder that the past is more nuanced and complex than the current political debate suggests. It is important to take public sentiment into account, but not at the expense of ignoring or perverting history.
Mr. Winik is author of “April 1865” and “1944” and historian-in-residence at the Council on Foreign Relations.
"My bird IS the word" (mybirdistheword)
11/04/2017 at 18:53, STARS: 4
“Fuck you, I am functionally illiterate and have no idea what the words mean. How dare you tell me to read. Also, Lee talks like a self righteous prick, so fuck him too. #racism”
-America, 2017
"DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time" (dc3ls-)
11/04/2017 at 18:58, STARS: 0
I was about to say; I had just read too many thought out and reasonable words on a GMG site and needed a hot take to get rid of the after taste.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
11/04/2017 at 19:02, STARS: 2
Too complicated, bro. Just share this to The Root so we can get an easier answer. /s
Important to note too that Lee, somewhat ironically today, was against the idea of commemorating the war in general.
Second main point is that the nature of the US was a lot different than it is now. If the EU were to violently break up, would a German General go to work for Brussels or would he stay and defend Germany? That’s more like the dilemma Lee faced from Lincoln’s offer.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/04/2017 at 19:02, STARS: 0
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/04/2017 at 19:04, STARS: 1
I wonder if any of the ardent followers of the current POTUS are as thoughtful or principled as General Lee is portrayed to be in this story.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
11/04/2017 at 19:05, STARS: 9
“But he added that slavery was “a greater evil to the white man than to the black race” in the United States, and that the “painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction.”
Also, regarding the slaves he freed, the were his father-in-law’s slaves and he willed their freedom. Wesley Norris, one of the freed slaves, later testified that they were told by Mr. Curtis that they would be immediately freed upon his death, but that Lee forced them to remain slaves for five more years.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/us/robert-e-lee-slaves.amp.html
This really isn’t that hard, people. The guys that fought to preserve slavery, especially the generals, were fucking racists. Yes, there were in fact racists on both sides, but only one side sacraficed their lives to preserve the institution of slavery.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
11/04/2017 at 19:11, STARS: 1
Not a chance. We’re facing a level of nationalism we haven’t seen since pre-WWII. Back then, I could maybe forgive some ignorance of international trade and politics because we were so isolated until 1941 forced our hands. There’s no going back, but Trump probably disagrees. America is Great, I still don’t get the “Again” part. Ask me again in 3 years and I’ll maybe be nostalgic for 2017...
"My bird IS the word" (mybirdistheword)
11/04/2017 at 19:12, STARS: 2
Sorry, I thought the sarcasm would be a bit more apparant.
Just kind of sick of people who comment on things without actually learning the context. Which is also me apparantly, I didn’t know this about Lee. The civil war never really interested me, because the whole thing in retrospect seemed like a colossal fuckup.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
11/04/2017 at 19:13, STARS: 3
Lee on slavery, in his own words:
“I think it however a greater evil to the white than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race.”
Yeah, sounds like a great guy. Slavery was worse for whites than blacks, and Africans needed slavery in order to help their race. Right...
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/04/2017 at 19:19, STARS: 3
You are always so pleasant to converse with.
/s
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/04/2017 at 19:21, STARS: 0
There’s a militancy that he has infected people with that is truly disturbing. They’re all convinced that DT is being treated unfairly and anyone who suggests otherwise should be punched in the nose. Even if you buy their argument(s), I prefer life with a veneer of civility.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/04/2017 at 19:25, STARS: 0
According to Skychismo, Lee said other things that this historian preferred to overlook. More interestingly, he refers to a NYT story, which I ought to read, in order to compare how the two papers portray the guy.
We have two distinctly different narratives or, if you prefer, views of reality between the liberal media and the conservative media.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
11/04/2017 at 19:26, STARS: 1
DT is getting a bit of a media pile-on, but I think 90% of it is well deserved. But the guy thrives on controlling the media to a degree that no president since probably Lincoln ever has (just to tie it back to topic. Seriously, Lincoln was THE newspaper PR master. No need to complain about bias when you’re feeding them a script, but that was more common back then for almost everyone to be in bed with the news. Today’s media bias is benign.)
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/04/2017 at 19:29, STARS: 1
I just can’t get over how whiny DT is for what a tough guy he is supposed to be. I mean, he even whines about
winning
. How much longer is he going to be able to carry water by whining about Hillary? He antagonizes the media, then whines when they pile on.
I have to be careful not to be drawn into his followers’ eagerness to mud wrestle.
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
11/04/2017 at 19:31, STARS: 5
When your ideas fail, attack the person who questions them.
Racists have been trying to white wash the memory of Lee since the Civil War ended. This isn’t anything new. Frederick Douglas did a pretty good job of shutting them down back then.
“ We are sometimes asked, in the name of patriotism, to forget the merits of this fearful struggle, and to remember with equal admiration those who struck at the nation’s life and those who struck to save it, those who fought for slavery and those who fought for liberty and justice.
I am no minister of malice. I would not strike the fallen. I would not repel the repentant; but may my right hand forget her cunning and my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I forget the difference between the parties to hat terrible, protracted, and bloody conflict.
...But we are not here to applaud manly courage, save as it has been displayed in a noble cause. We must never forget that victory to the rebellion meant death to the Republic.”
Unfortunately our country is so uneducated that even our President doesn’t know who Frederick Douglas is.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/04/2017 at 19:36, STARS: 2
I wasn’t disagreeing with you. I’d melt down Lee’s statues and cast the metal into paperweights. You just come in kind of hot
sometimes
frequently.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
11/04/2017 at 19:41, STARS: 0
Clearly the sign of someone who has never been a “real” CEO, just a megalomaniac who got his own way most of the time, but almost always in places where he had home-field advantage (NYC, Atlantic City, etc).
"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti)
11/04/2017 at 19:43, STARS: 1
Point taken.
"EL_ULY" (uly)
11/04/2017 at 19:48, STARS: 8
Mr. Rodgers was a mega awesome human that the world didn’t deserve.
If it turns out he molested a child at one point, all of his merits are VOID!
Nothing Robert E. Lee did can justify his place in history, ever! Fuck Robert E Lee and all who served against the USA and wanted to preserve owning humans. A even bigger FUCK YOU to those wanting to keep any sort of Confederate monuments.
While I’m at it fuck all humans and papayas. Worst creatures and fruit on Earth!
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/04/2017 at 19:49, STARS: 1
That is a salient point of analysis. When has the world known a bully pulpit more powerful than DT on Twitter?
The politics that the Republicans want are about 165 degrees out from my own leanings. Maybe a bit less. But we — meaning me and my liberal ilk — lost the election thanks to HRC and the DNC and sobeit. But DT’s bullying and poop stirring and flat out lying disturbs me greatly. And if I lived in Seoul, I’d be afraid.
My wife asked me today, “Why do we have troops in
Nigeria
?” I replied, “Good question.”
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/04/2017 at 19:52, STARS: 1
I wish you wouldn’t talk that way about Fred, even in jest. And I wish you would just tell us how you feel instead of pussy-footing around.
And with regard to “...all humans and papayas...,” that’s how I feel about people who spit out their chewing gum onto the sidewalk. When I am POTUS and have my own Twitter account, I am going to shut down all chewing gum factories and use them for television-guided bomb practice.
"aquila121" (aquila121)
11/04/2017 at 19:53, STARS: 2
I‘d think the fucking declaration of secession immediately preceding the Civil War would be a good indication of what Robert E. Lee and other generals from the south were fighting for—it specifically cited the stance of black people being property and the South’s unyielding desire to keep it that way. The Civil War was fought because the South wanted to maintain slavery.
I’d look pretty closely at Mississippi’s entry—and apparently, they took until 2013 to fully ratify the 13th amendment at their own state level (which acknowledges slavery being abolished).
https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
Fuck ‘em. No one should be glorifying these abhorrent views, and those who fought for them. I’m going to be guilty of Godwin’s law, but the Germans don’t wax poetic about how Hitler “fought for what he believed in.” He may have had influence in the design and production of the classic Beetle, but he’s still one of the worst people ever to live. Let’s all agree that the Civil War is the result of one of the darkest periods in our history, and the persistence of a pro-Confederacy view by anyone proves that we have not fully addressed and rectified it.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/04/2017 at 19:57, STARS: 0
Well said, Sir. Have you read “Cold Mountain?” (The movie was a pale imitation of the book, what little of it I saw.)
"Sovande" (sovande)
11/04/2017 at 19:59, STARS: 0
Ignorance is, indeed, bliss.
"aquila121" (aquila121)
11/04/2017 at 20:05, STARS: 1
No, I’m not usually one for period pieces.
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
11/04/2017 at 20:06, STARS: 0
So Nigeria can pretend to fight Boko Haram with our assistance and receive tons of foreign aid money? Just guessing. We’ve become the benefactor to the world and as far as Africa goes, IMHO, Europe screwed that place up and should be dealing with it more than we are. But oh....Nigeria is full of oil, so there’s that.
Yes, I’m conservative but I’m starting to hate that label.
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
11/04/2017 at 20:09, STARS: 1
"Maxima Speed" (maximaspeed)
11/04/2017 at 20:45, STARS: 1
The traitorous scum are the ones who decided to ignore the constitution and invade their fellow states, to opress them.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/04/2017 at 21:11, STARS: 1
Labels are bad, generally. When I refer to myself as liberal, I do it in self deprecation. Too much discourse, the terms of it, are framed by media and others. Most people who shout the most loudly have the least well-informed view, in my experience. Lots of knee-jerk, conditioned replies.
"EL_ULY" (uly)
11/04/2017 at 22:16, STARS: 1
Lol right? :] On the ground and under tables
"EL_ULY" (uly)
11/04/2017 at 22:18, STARS: 1
That too! Damn indians!
Lol :]
"gmporschenut also a fan of hondas" (gmporschenut)
11/04/2017 at 23:27, STARS: 2
“As the historian James McPherson recounts in Battle Cry of Freedom , in October of that same year, Lee proposed an exchange of prisoners with the Union general Ulysses S. Grant. “Grant agreed, on condition that blacks be exchanged ‘the same as white soldiers.’” Lee’s response was that “negroes belonging to our citizens are not considered subjects of exchange and were not included in my proposition.” ..
Lee is not remembered as an educator, but his life as president of Washington College (later Washington and Lee) is tainted as well. According to Pryor, students at Washington formed their own chapter of the KKK, and were known by the local Freedmen’s Bureau to attempt to abduct and rape black schoolgirls from the nearby black schools.
There were at least two attempted lynchings by Washington students during Lee’s tenure, and Pryor writes that “the number of accusations against Washington College boys indicates that he either punished the racial harassment more laxly than other misdemeanors, or turned a blind eye to it,” adding that he “did not exercise the near imperial control he had at the school, as he did for more trivial matters, such as when the boys threatened to take unofficial Christmas holidays.” In short, Lee was as indifferent to crimes of violence toward blacks carried out by his students as he was when they were carried out by his soldiers.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/
the confederate leadership should have been hanged as the traitors they were.
"BigBlock440" (440-4bbl)
11/04/2017 at 23:50, STARS: 1
My wife asked me today, “Why do we have troops in Nigeria ?” I replied, “Good question.”
We’ve had troops in Africa since the Clinton 1 days at least. But the French are there too, so there’s that.
"BigBlock440" (440-4bbl)
11/04/2017 at 23:59, STARS: 1
So many of these comments prove your point. “Fuck history, fuck everybody else, I’m right, and you’re an asshole”
"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
11/05/2017 at 00:36, STARS: 2
What I love most is applying completely contemporary norms to life 150 years ago. A lot of life back then was royally screwed up all around. It’s hard — if not impossible — to retroactively assign our current, much more thorough and compassionate values to the situations.
I always believe slavery is objectively wrong, but damned if there wasn’t a lot of gray area for a lot of people back then. These people bought existing slaves from other slaveholders (usually African warlords or their European middlemen) which, in their minds, partially justified it. “Slavery wil always exist, so why can’t I take part?” is the rationalization. The notion that a bunch of rich white guys wandered into the jungle and captured locals for servitude is a common concept, but almost 100% inaccurate. It makes for a much simpler boogeyman, though.
Never mind the whole economy built around it, including cotton’s ultimate customers around the world who apparently had no big moral issue buying garments that supported slavery. It wasn’t exactly a secret.
Tangled web.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/05/2017 at 00:40, STARS: 0
GMG?
"DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time" (dc3ls-)
11/05/2017 at 11:29, STARS: 1
Gizmodo Media Group, formerly Gawker.
"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/05/2017 at 11:36, STARS: 0
Thanks.